Ancient eygptians, pastoral neoltihci and ev-12

[Midas]

This something that's been on my mind yet I haven't been able to make sense of.

The pastoral neolthic individuals in kenya date back 5 thousand years ago. They are also almost indistinguishable from somalis. It also probably wouldn't be a stretch to say these individuals left eygpt/sudan 2 thosuand years before this right ?

And if there was a pouplation that began to leave eygpt 7 thosuand years ago that is almost indistinguishable from somalis . Doesn't that imply that the mix we see now in somalis and the pastral neolithic individuals must go back a lot deeper than 7 thosuand years ago


Where it gest weird for me is that somalis share the e-v12 haplogroup with southern eygptians who are 74 % e-v12.

Yet the pastoral neolthic individuals who are extremely genetically simialr to somalis and possibly left eygpt 7 thosuand years ago . Don't have e-v12 at all .

To me this seems to imply that the predynastic upper eygptianss before the levantine migrations were eastern cushties represented by e-v12 . But that cushites as a whole goes way higher up the subclades than e-v12.


The biggest thing to me that convinced was that somalis and the pastoral neolthic groups took compelelty different routes when leaving eygot yet they still remained extremly similar genetically.

 

[Midas]

There is also the fact that Somalis had left eygpt by at the latest 2500 b.c probably way earlier

 

[Midas]

@Shimbiris and @The alchemist

Do you guys seen any big gaps or mistakes in my speculation.

 

[Shimbiris]

@Shimbiris and @The alchemist

Do you guys seen any big gaps or mistakes in my speculation.

I am preparing a post now on Anthromadness. Already over 3k words and 30 citations alongside visualizations and models using G25. Almost done with section 3 out of 4 of the post. It's all about the idea of the Wawat and Kermans being East Cushites and EC being a possible substrata in AE then illustrating that Cushites seem to have come into the Horn in separate waves.

So, from me I'd just wait on that and then see how it can relate to some of what you're saying. Apologies for the delay in posting it. I actually began working on it as soon as I posted my IBM post but it's hard blogging with a full-time job while trying to maintain some semblance of a social life during the weekends. Missing the days when I was an undergrad and first started AM.

 

[Midas]

I am preparing a post now on Anthromadness. Already over 3k words and 30 citations alongside visualizations and models using G25. Almost done with section 3 out of 4 of the post. It's all about the idea of the Wawat and Kermans being East Cushites and EC being a possible substrata in AE then illustrating that Cushites seem to have come into the Horn in separate waves.

So, from me I'd just wait on that and then see how it can relate to some of what you're saying. Apologies for the delay in posting it. I actually began working on it as soon as I posted my IBM post but it's hard blogging with a full-time job while trying to maintain some semblance of a social life during the weekends. Missing the days when I was an undergrad and first started AM.

It sounds like a fascinating read. I'm honestly surprised how all the data always seems to push when the cushites split further and further back


Even though it's conjecture in my head I can't see proto cushites as being younger than 10 thousand years. I wouldn't be surprised if proto cushits date back a bit before the holocene

 

[Arabsiyawi]

The biggest thing to me that convinced was that somalis and the pastoral neolthic groups took compelelty different routes when leaving eygot yet they still remained extremly similar genetically.

Don't we have enough evidences to suggest pre-somaloids were mostly in southern ethiopia ?

 

[Shimbiris]

It sounds like a fascinating read. I'm honestly surprised how all the data always seems to push when the cushites split further and further back

Yes, it's very strange. The supposed EC substratum in Ancient Egyptian, for example, really surprised me because I remember people like Ehret telling me that EC unity dated to around 2000 BCE. But if we can find a substratum of it in AE then clearly EC was being spoken much earlier than that so when exactly did it even split from SC? Or was SC basically still just part of a branch with EC back then during the Copper Age to late Neolithic? When the hell did Agaw cut off, then?

And then you have that evidence of contact with Saharan dating to after the split between Agaw-East-South and NC as far back as I think I remember 7-8kya? How fucking old is this branch, man? I'll do another post on that someday and maybe even interview some linguists as preparation.

 

[Midas]

Yes, it's very strange. The supposed EC substratum in Ancient Egyptian, for example, really surprised me because I remember people like Ehret telling me that EC unity dated to around 2000 BCE. But if we can find a substratum of it in AE then clearly EC was being spoken much earlier than that so when exactly did it even split from SC? Or was SC basically still just part of a branch with EC back then during the Copper Age to late Neolithic? When the hell did Agaw cut off, then?

And then you have that evidence of contact with Saharan dating to after the split between Agaw-East-South and NC as far back as I think I remember 7-8kya? How fucking old is this branch, man? I'll do another post on that someday and maybe even interview some linguists as preparation.

It also has me asking questions about how old the west eurasian ancestry in us is .

because the description people use is naftufian-like. Which is what they also use to describe the eurasia ancestry in iberomonsurians. If this ancestry was present in these north Africans from 15 thosuand years ago. Then when exactly did it come in ? Espciaally becuase there's a barrier between pouplations 20,000 -25000 when the last glacial maxium period happened and basically no travel.

Does that mean this euraisan ancestry was already present 25,000 years ago ? If so when did it actually enter africa ? 26,000 years ago ? 30,000 ago ?

 

[Shimbiris]

It also has me asking questions about how old the west eurasian ancestry in us is .

because the description people use is naftufian-like. Which is what they also use to describe the eurasia ancestry in iberomonsurians. If this ancestry was present in these north Africans from 15 thosuand years ago. Then when exactly did it come in ? Espciaally becuase there's a barrier between pouplations 20,000 -25000 when the last glacial maxium period happened and basically no travel.

Does that mean this euraisan ancestry was already present 25,000 years ago ? If so when did it actually enter africa ? 26,000 years ago ? 30,000 ago ?

This needs a proper "top to bottom" sit down on it as well. We really need to try and map the full-scope of West-Eurasian admixture into North Africa (east and west) even on a mtDNA and later Y-DNA level over time to really try and map the possible waves that occurred. For now there was definitely some sort of early Anatolian/Dzudzuana wave before 15,000ybp then a back-migration into West-Asia bringing in E-M35, ANA and even SSA cranial morphology that shifted all future West-Eurasians away from their UP Paleolithic predecessors who looked like their own thing phenotypically.

I think given how similar (near identical) Somalis look to Naqadans in cranioform it is quite apparent that we received post back-migration admixture from West-Asia since you sort of need something, I would say, post-Kebaran and maybe even post-Natfuain from West-Asia to look that way but there would absolutely have been previous Anatolian-related elements already present and responsible for various U clades (i.e. U6a1), M1 and so forth. I personally associate lineages like N1a, N1b, I, K1a and perhaps even R0 with this hypothetical later wave.

 

[Garaad Awal]

I am preparing a post now on Anthromadness. Already over 3k words and 30 citations alongside visualizations and models using G25. Almost done with section 3 out of 4 of the post. It's all about the idea of the Wawat and Kermans being East Cushites and EC being a possible substrata in AE then illustrating that Cushites seem to have come into the Horn in separate waves.

So, from me I'd just wait on that and then see how it can relate to some of what you're saying. Apologies for the delay in posting it. I actually began working on it as soon as I posted my IBM post but it's hard blogging with a full-time job while trying to maintain some semblance of a social life during the weekends. Missing the days when I was an undergrad and first started AM.

The breakup of East-Central-South Cushitic in Sudan/Egypt?

 

[Midas]

This needs a proper "top to bottom" sit down on it as well. We really need to try and map the full-scope of West-Eurasian admixture into North Africa (east and west) even on a mtDNA and later Y-DNA level over time to really try and map the possible waves that occurred. For now there was definitely some sort of early Anatolian/Dzudzuana wave before 15,000ybp then a back-migration into West-Asia bringing in E-M35, ANA and even SSA cranial morphology that shifted all future West-Eurasians away from their UP Paleolithic predecessors who looked like their own thing phenotypically.

I think given how similar (near identical) Somalis look to Naqadans in cranioform it is quite apparent that we received post back-migration admixture from West-Asia since you sort of need something, I would say, post-Kebaran and maybe even post-Natfuain from West-Asia to look that way but there would absolutely have been previous Anatolian-related elements already present and responsible for various U clades (i.e. U6a1), M1 and so forth. I personally associate lineages like N1a, N1b, I, K1a and perhaps even R0 with this hypothetical later wave.

I'm honestly prepared for there to be several other crazy reveals when the story is fully understood.

I feel like the reason A lot of these western genetics guys seem to favor extremly late pouplation movements is because they notice how weird the current timeline is with regards to stuff like naftufian and iberomonsurians sharing dna euraisna dna. Even their grand theories about cattle domestication have huge holes . And imagine what will find out when they really test goat pouplations in northeastern africa.

You should check out the Hofmeyr Skull. It dates to 36kya from its archeological context (not radiocarbon dating) in South Africa! Why is this strange? It has the skull variation of Upper Paleolithic Western Eurasians (close to the broader clusters of Europeans). For three years now, I have wondered how that person ended up in South Africa, and it revolutionizes how we view Africa's demographic picture, where we have to account for dynamic variational fluxes. Remember, people of that time had high mobility bandwidth.

I think that individual was from North Africa or there is something very unprecedented with the pre-historic picture of prehistoric Africa masked by later gene-flow overturns.

"Against the dearth of late Pleistocene human skeletal remains from sub-Saharan Africa stands a nearly complete cranium from Hofmeyr, South Africa, which has been dated to approximately 36 ka through a combination of optically-stimulated luminescence and uranium-series methods (Grine et al., 2007). Preliminary assessment indicates its strongest morphometric affinities to be with Upper Paleolithic Eurasians rather than recent, geographically proximate people (Grine et al., 2007). This observation is potentially significant in view of the geochronological age of the Hofmeyr skull and the ability of craniometric data to differentiate recent human populations in accord with their geographic and genetic relationships (Howells, 1973, 1989; Lahr, 1996; Ribot, 2003, 2004; Relethford, 2004; Roseman, 2004; Roseman and Weaver, 2004; Harvati and Weaver, 2006; Martinez-Abadias et al., 2006; González-José et al., 2008; Varela et al., 2008).

The results of the study by Grine et al. (2007), which must be regarded as preliminary owing, in part, to the limited late Pleistocene cranial sample employed, are nevertheless consistent with the hypothesis that Upper Paleolithic Eurasians descended from a population that emigrated from sub-Saharan Africa in the late Pleistocene. As such, the Hofmeyr cranium affords the first potential insights into the morphology of this African population."
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2010.02.007 (Grine et al., 2010)

View attachment 294003
DOI: 10.1126/science.1136294 (Grine et al., 2007)

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To answer your question, the past was complex. I don't think one should bet against anything. I think the concept of SSA is nothing but obstructive. But then again, we need labels - without them, it would be hard to have a conversation. The issue is when the intrinsic shortcomings and errors of the labels define future discourse which we see much of. Frankly, there is no such thing as Sub-Saharan Africa. Go and model a South African as a stand-in for our East African DNA and see the divergence.

The example you game regarding using Ust-Ishim to delineate supposed late middle Stone Age backmigration gene flow can be interesting in that it can explain the relative relationship within African diversity that Ust-Ishim shows closer correspondence - a strict within Africa diversity where the model is only showing difficult interpretive significance (what is sectioned off to various proxies might not be true component differentiations; it's the weakness with thinking existing proxies can reveal greater deep diversity). Or it can be a level of likeness indicating back migration, indeed. We don't know. I don't think both sides and even more explanations are exclusive. Everything is likely correct. We're dealing with great time-depths and so many things happening. It is very interesting, right?

Wouldn't it be really funny if it turned out what everybody though was west eurasian morphology was just some extremely abberant african morphology that came with the em-35 migration into the Levant.

 

[Xareen]

Don't we have enough evidences to suggest pre-somaloids were mostly in southern ethiopia ?

This has been answered 1000 times but no. Lurk more

 

[Xareen]

Yes, it's very strange. The supposed EC substratum in Ancient Egyptian, for example, really surprised me because I remember people like Ehret telling me that EC unity dated to around 2000 BCE. But if we can find a substratum of it in AE then clearly EC was being spoken much earlier than that so when exactly did it even split from SC? Or was SC basically still just part of a branch with EC back then during the Copper Age to late Neolithic? When the hell did Agaw cut off, then?

Could easily be East-South because who the hell is checking for South Cushitic? That was only a blogpost I doubt a real rigorous process of comparing every branch to see best match was done. I don't think proto-Cushitic goes back any further than 7kya. 5000BC at a stretch, unity until 4000BC. I'm going by the (relatively scant) archaeology.

And then you have that evidence of contact with Saharan dating to after the split between Agaw-East-South and NC as far back as I think I remember 7-8kya? How fucking old is this branch, man? I'll do another post on that someday and maybe even interview some linguists as preparation.

What contact with Saharan? And what Saharan?

 

[Garaad Awal]

The lexical evidence supports the view that Eastern Cushitic speakers arrived in the Horn of Africa relatively late, likely after 3000 BC. Here’s why:


1. Shared Vocabulary with Central Cushitic (Agaw):
Eastern Cushitic shares several agricultural terms with Agaw (Central Cushitic), such as the term for barley and plow.

This implies they had common exposure to Middle Eastern crops (barley, the plow etc) after their split from Southern Cushitic, suggesting a closer and later divergence between Eastern and Central Cushitic.


2. Lack of Terms in Southern Cushitic:
Proto-Southern Cushitic lacks these terms, indicating that it split off before the introduction of Middle Eastern agricultural vocabulary to the Cushitic-speaking zone.

This supports the idea that Southern Cushitic speakers migrated southward out of Sudan/Egypt earlier, possibly before 3000 BC, isolating them from later innovations.


3. Eastern Cushitic Arrival Timeline:
If barley and related farming tools only entered the Ethiopian highlands around 3000–2000 BC, and Eastern Cushitic speakers already had words for these, then their arrival and establishment in the region must have occurred after the Southern Cushitic dispersal and concurrently or after Central Cushitic divergence.

I harbor reservations regarding the proposed close relationship between South Cushitic and East Cushitic as presented in current classifications. In particular, I question the framework and linguistic evidence employed by Christopher Ehret in constructing his model of the Cushitic language family. His approach appears to rely on certain assumptions and reconstructions that warrant further scrutiny.

 

[TheLand]

Could easily be East-South because who the hell is checking for South Cushitic? That was only a blogpost I doubt a real rigorous process of comparing every branch to see best match was done. I don't think proto-Cushitic goes back any further than 7kya. 5000BC at a stretch, unity until 4000BC. I'm going by the (relatively scant) archaeology.

What contact with Saharan? And what Saharan?

Take a look at this. This is a reconstruction of the word for teach that we can all recognize. Probably used as early as the predynastic period. Could easily be considered as being part of the Cushitic verb ‘substrata’. Do you honestly think then that 5000 bc is a stretch?

 

[Xareen]

Take a look at this. This is a reconstruction of the word for teach that we can all recognize. Probably used as early as the predynastic period. Could easily be considered as being part of the Cushitic verb ‘substrata’. Do you honestly think then that 5000 bc is a stretch? View attachment 358695

I think it's a chance correspondence. Soo bar are really two words. Hard to reconcile

 

[TheLand]

I think it's a chance correspondence. Soo bar are really two words. Hard to reconcile

Not at all. It’s the exact same word/words and even in the reconstruction Sa’bar is two words, with bar meaning to reveal so the ‘So’ here is a modifier acting in the exact same way in Somali, meaning to take an action or to go and do something. There are many more examples of this but what is particularly striking is that the further in time you go back the more it starts looking like Somali/Cushitic.

 

[NidarNidar]

It also has me asking questions about how old the west eurasian ancestry in us is .

because the description people use is naftufian-like. Which is what they also use to describe the eurasia ancestry in iberomonsurians. If this ancestry was present in these north Africans from 15 thosuand years ago. Then when exactly did it come in ? Espciaally becuase there's a barrier between pouplations 20,000 -25000 when the last glacial maxium period happened and basically no travel.

Does that mean this euraisan ancestry was already present 25,000 years ago ? If so when did it actually enter africa ? 26,000 years ago ? 30,000 ago ?

This ethio-somali component looks to have diverged from other non-African ancestries; it is most closely related to the Maghrebi non-African genetic component and looks to have been maternal.

"The African Ethiopic ancestry is tightly restricted to HOA populations and likely represents an autochthonous HOA population. The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka, and does not carry the unique Arabian lactase persistence allele that arose about 4 ka. Taking into account published mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-to-Africa migration is most likely pre-agricultural."

"Numerous genetic studies over the last decades have identified substantial non-African ancestry in populations in this region. Because there is archaeological, historical, and linguistic evidence for contact with non-African populations beginning about 3,000 years ago, it has often been assumed that the non-African ancestry in HOA populations dates to this time. In this work, we find that the genetic composition of non-African ancestry in the HOA is distinct from the genetic composition of current populations in North Africa and the Middle East. With these data, we demonstrate that most non-African ancestry in the HOA cannot be the result of admixture within the last few thousand years, and that the majority of admixture probably occurred prior to the advent of agriculture. These results contribute to a growing body of work showing that prehistoric hunter-gatherer populations were much more dynamic than usually assumed."

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Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa - PMC

Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Midas]

Not at all. It’s the exact same word/words and even in the reconstruction Sa’bar is two words, with bar meaning to reveal so the ‘So’ here is a modifier acting in the exact same way in Somali, meaning to take an action or to go and do something. There are many more examples of this but what is particularly striking is that the further in time you go back the more it starts looking like Somali/Cushitic.

There is already a large enough pool of evidence where In any other field would cause people to look into this seriously. I mean you've got

1) a shared e- v12 haplogroup in southern eygpt( the region which has the least foreign dna and was the birthplace of ancient eygpt) which is 75% of the pouplation
2) a pouplar ancient relegious ramdan folk song which is coptic ( ancient eygptian) which literally uses the words "waxaa weyee". Which literally translates to "this is" i can't see how they could use this kind of word order and phrase if it wasn't east cushtic

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="ar" dir="rtl">🫵<br>Waxa weeye Dayaxa&quot;Ayaxa&quot;<br>تعنى باللغة الصومالية هاهو القمر<br>انقرضت لغة الفراعنة واللغة القبطية أصبحت لغة طقسية كنيسة<br>ولكن مازالت اللغة الصومالية من اللغات الناجية من العالم القديم <br>لأجل ذالك لم يصطحب ملوك مصر القديمة أي مترجمين عند زيارتهم ملوك البونت <a href="https://t.co/6rZU4R9H6C">pic.twitter.com/6rZU4R9H6C</a></p>&mdash; Elsultana Hanan (@Hanan1300193975) <a href="">July 28, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


3) all the other lexical words like you've identified.
4) the land of of punts title of the land of the gods being alternatively translated as " the land of ancestors" which considering how well kept the record were in anicnet eygpt is a memory of the elites still having reletivley recent east cushtic roots.


Of course there needs to be a lot more evidence then this to the point it becomes irrefutable but this more than enough to start with.

 

[TheLand]

There is already a large enough pool of evidence where In any other field would cause people to look into this seriously. I mean you've got

1) a shared e- v12 haplogroup in southern eygpt( the region which has the least foreign dna and was the birthplace of ancient eygpt) which is 75% of the pouplation
2) a pouplar ancient relegious ramdan folk song which is coptic ( ancient eygptian) which literally uses the words "waxaa weyee". Which literally translates to "this is" i can't see how they could use this kind of word order and phrase if it wasn't east cushtic

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="ar" dir="rtl">🫵<br>Waxa weeye Dayaxa&quot;Ayaxa&quot;<br>تعنى باللغة الصومالية هاهو القمر<br>انقرضت لغة الفراعنة واللغة القبطية أصبحت لغة طقسية كنيسة<br>ولكن مازالت اللغة الصومالية من اللغات الناجية من العالم القديم <br>لأجل ذالك لم يصطحب ملوك مصر القديمة أي مترجمين عند زيارتهم ملوك البونت <a href="https://t.co/6rZU4R9H6C">pic.twitter.com/6rZU4R9H6C</a></p>&mdash; Elsultana Hanan (@Hanan1300193975) <a href="">July 28, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


3) all the other lexical words like you've identified.
4) the land of of punts title of the land of the gods being alternatively translated as " the land of ancestors" which considering how well kept the record were in anicnet eygpt is a memory of the elites still having reletivley recent east cushtic roots.


Of course there needs to be a lot more evidence then this to the point it becomes irrefutable but this more than enough to start with.

Even what @Shimbiris and others have pointed out about certain pre-dynastic Egyptians strongly resembling Somalis cranially and likely phenotypically in general. I think even this ‘Cushitic substrata’ stuff is likely bs and that this was just the language of Upper Egypt that changed over the course of Egypt’s 4k year history after unification with Lower Egypt and the melding of languages over time. It could still possibly be viewed as a substrata in that sense I guess but not this ‘mass absorption’ of Cushitic speakers as they hypothesize.

A large part of the problem is that scholars use written language and Somali wasn’t written until the 1970s and then you’ve had over 30 years of state collapse so not a lot to work with. They are slowly coming to realize all of this though.