Centralisation but with the right leader

[johnsepei5]

Current and past administrations in Mogadishu have been completely untrustworthy and unserious crooks Who don’t deserve respect

Puntland and Jubaland have and had every right to pick up their guns and run their shit

but what if there was a strong leader who had every Somali person’s interests and needs in mind,no matter what region they are from

This thread will Seperete the nationalists from the Qabilists

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Which type or form of governance does not really matter. Any form could work at a time for a nation, but not at all times, and not for all nations.

• Events, and history dictate what form of governance a nation chooses.
• In our case, our recent history shall dictate in that Centralism is seen as the death of a nation, and rightly so.

 

[Hurder]

Theres too many proxy states within Somalia. Centralization was and will be the only resolution. 91 only happened because mooryaan Siad unalived civilians/imaams.

 

[Hassan Garguute Buldanana]

Hell no, absolutely not.

 

[FBIsomalia]

Becuase of system, Afweyna been created and moryaan fight to take xamar.

Federalism is what bring some stability to Somalia. It was reer Digil and Mirif idea at 50s.

 

[berberaboy66]

Federalism should just be kept to local governance, just a shame the mooryan in Mogadishu don’t want to build an army that would put all the regional states back in their place

 

[Midas]

The reality is most of these guys don't actually care if they have the worst living stanadrd under the world . As long as they think their qabil doesn't take orders from another qabil. There is no world where fms keep their independence and somalia's develops.


The truth is that every fms will oppose centralization regardless of who's president since they will lose the ability to cut deals and won't be feel like their the president of thier country like they do now when they get in pictures for igu sawair with ajnaabis who stroke their ego.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Current and past administrations in Mogadishu have been completely untrustworthy and unserious crooks Who don’t deserve respect

Puntland and Jubaland have and had every right to pick up their guns and run their shit

but what if there was a strong leader who had every Somali person’s interests and needs in mind,no matter what region they are from

This thread will Seperete the nationalists from the Qabilists

Central government doesn't work because of 4.5 clan corruption and highly corrupt groups in Mogadishu and the plan is to replace it Hawiye democracy will make it even more corrupt and dysfuncitonal. The other clans obviously reject democracy in under the current conditions which shows no sign of ending.

If the central government can't work forget about centralization or federalism (forget about confederation completely) . Systems are reflection of the masses not just one individual at the top but people need some hope to cling on to.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

This guy makes an interesting point. The IC were always pushing for strong central government. The other groups in Somalia from FMS and others were meant to be rolled up into the state through mediated arrangements (basically conned by the central government with the help of trusted third parties (think Somaliland Somalia talks with Turkey as mediator) or marginalized or fought directly. This was the plan and it was based on a reading of early European history that said states were born out of protection rackets.

If you have some sovereign recognized crooks in the capital and you give them money they are meant to start a protection racket, build army and beurocracy to manage that army and then expand over time to get more tax base and more war making capacity until they reach the borders. That's how it was meant to work but the Somalis were more corrupt than they could have imagined. They just looted the start up money.

 

[MuseGuud]

Centralism will not work for the first 50 years of state building. There is zero trust among everyone based on the civil war and the following three decades of lawlessness. Somalis need to go by the book for a good period of time. Something like the swiss cantons which are highly autonomous.

 

[TheLand]

This guy makes an interesting point. The IC were always pushing for strong central government. The other groups in Somalia from FMS and others were meant to be rolled up into the state through mediated arrangements (basically conned by the central government with the help of trusted third parties (think Somaliland Somalia talks with Turkey as mediator) or marginalized or fought directly. This was the plan and it was based on a reading of early European history that said states were born out of protection rackets.

If you have some sovereign recognized crooks in the capital and you give them money they are meant to start a protection racket, build army and beurocracy to manage that army and then expand over time to get more tax base and more war making capacity until they reach the borders. That's how it was meant to work but the Somalis were more corrupt than they could have imagined. They just looted the start up money.

This is a mischaracterization of what was said by the speaker at best. The point he was making was that leaders in not only Somalia but South Sudan and Afghanistan as well (western agents) were incentivized ( by foreign aid) to continue the cycle. Yet here you are talking about how corrupt only Somalis are and leaving out the main ingredients. You always have some salient agenda that is obviously to lie and make everyone else look bad thinking you will make SL look great.

 

[MuseGuud]

The reality is most of these guys don't actually care if they have the worst living stanadrd under the world . As long as they think their qabil doesn't take orders from another qabil. There is no world where fms keep their independence and somalia's develops.


The truth is that every fms will oppose centralization regardless of who's president since they will lose the ability to cut deals and won't be feel like their the president of thier country like they do now when they get in pictures for igu sawair with ajnaabis who stroke their ego.

That's the retarded kacaan mentality that's holding us back, the military is meant to defend the country not subjugate local governments. How do you think these FMSs would react if the Federal government politicizes the SNA in their regions and uses it to force the local governments to bend the knee. You would just restart the civil war all over again.

 

[Devilsadvocate]

I believe that the goal should be to have effective federalism first, with the possibility of slowly transitioning to centralisation. However, this depends on the candidate. If it's the current group of HSM, Sharif, Farmaajo, Deni, Kheyre, and others, I don't see centralisation ever happening. People don't trust these candidates, and rightfully so.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

This is a mischaracterization of what was said by the speaker at best. The point he was making was that leaders in not only Somalia but South Sudan and Afghanistan as well (western agents) were incentivized ( by foreign aid) to continue the cycle. Yet here you are talking about how corrupt only Somalis are and leaving out the main ingredients. You always have some salient agenda that is obviously to lie and make everyone else look bad thinking you will make SL look great.

You are the one lying and mischaracterizing as usual:

Here's the direct quote:

Here the sovereign state for as weak as it is in places like South Sudan, Afghanistan and Somalia has a few advantages, it has sovereignty. It's got recognition that counts for something. It has access to foreign aid; it has the power of the purse.

If you've got leaders who really want to consolidate authority, they can co-opt, they can draw in, they can marginalize these armed groups slowly over time. But this brings us back to the tame vs wicked problem: Do the leaders want to? If you've got conditions where the leader in a country like Afghanistan or South Sudan or Somalia appears, not just the leader but his entire circle, mafiosio circle, has an interest in perpetuating these conditions there is actually in my view little that we can do to help. These crisis will go on and on.

 

[TheLand]

You are the one lying and mischaracterizing as usual (and bringing up Somaliland (good work)):

Here's the direct quote:

Here the sovereign state for as weak as it is in places like South Sudan, Afghanistan and Somalia has a few advantages, it has sovereignty. It's got recognition that counts for something. It has access to foreign aid; it has the power of the purse.

If you've got leaders who really want to consolidate authority, they can co-opt, they can draw in, they can marginalize these armed groups slowly over time. But this brings us back to the tame vs wicked problem: Do the leaders want to? If you've got conditions where the leader in a country like Afghanistan or South Sudan or Somalia appears, not just the leader but his entire circle, mafiosio circle, has an interest in perpetuating these conditions there is actually in my view little that we can do to help. These crisis will go on and on.

What are the conditions being referred to? He speaks directly to foreign aid and influence peddling by the west and that is what you are failing to infer either intentionally or unintentionally. If there is no foreign aid, what would these conditions that are being perpetuated be? You yourself admit there was nothing there before the west and that it is being propped up. Beenta jooji. He brought up Afghanistan and Sudan along with Somalia for a reason. They have all had leaders who stole aid money. Why are you saying it’s only Somalis who are corrupt especially when South Sudan is even worse?

 

[TheLand]

@Itsnotthateasy 39:47 he talks about SL and this very same issue of aid. He says SL hasn’t been recognized in part so that Somalia and the horn doesn’t break up but also because SL is not entitled to the kind of funding a sovereign nation is. He says that because SL is so poor you can mainly make money in the private sector and the concern is that if SL were eligible for say a $100 million loan from WB then ‘the game changes’ and SL ‘becomes something else’. You know exactly what he means, it will become just like Somalia when SL elites use the state to enrich themselves off of this newfound funding. You can read between the lines I’m sure but you are being disingenuous on purpose. Next time if you post a video know that I will watch it all sxb and thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed it.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

What are the conditions being referred to? He speaks directly to foreign aid and influence peddling by the west and that is what you are failing to infer either intentionally or unintentionally. If there is no foreign aid, what would these conditions that are being perpetuated be? You yourself admit there was nothing there before the west and that it is being propped up. Beenta jooji. He brought up Afghanistan and Sudan along with Somalia for a reason. They have all had leaders who stole aid money. Why are you saying it’s only Somalis who are corrupt especially when South Sudan is even worse?

No he's talking specifically about the political elites of the country in question, not the IC. The conditions are state failure, Somalia's political elites profit from state failure more than state building.


Here is the beginning where he explains:

Direct quote:

A wicked problem is a great engineering, systems and engineering term that i like to import into social science. A tame problem in the case of state building is essentially a solvable one. You've got governing authorities that are willing but not able to extend their authority in the services we associate with a state. A wicked problem is when you've got governing authorities that have neither the will nor the capacity to govern. The former invites capacity building interventions the latter invites capacity building interventions that are destined to fail. The latter when you've got a wicked problem of state building when you've got political elites who have a vested interest in actually perpetuating conditions of durable disorder and state failure or weakness turn state building state into a very attractive project but not a very interesting outcome. "We can keep doing this for as long as you can keep writing checks for us, but we have very little interest in actually seeing it succeed." We all know the cases where that has happened from Afghanistan to Somalia and others.

 

[TheLand]

No he's talking specifically about the political elites of the country in question, not the IC. The conditions are state failure, Somalia's political elites profit from state failure more than state building.


Here is the beginning where he explains:

Direct quote:

A wicked problem is a great engineering, systems and engineering term that i like to import into social science. A tame problem in the case of state building is essentially a solvable one. You've got governing authorities that are willing but not able to extend their authority in the services we associate with a state. A wicked problem is when you've got governing authorities that have neither the will nor the capacity to govern. The former invites capacity building interventions the latter invites capacity building interventions that are destined to fail. The latter when you've got a wicked problem of state building when you've got political elites who have a vested interest in actually perpetuating conditions of durable disorder and state failure or weakness turn state building state into a very attractive project but not a very interesting outcome. "We can keep doing this for as long as you can keep writing checks for us, but we have very little interest in actually seeing it succeed." We all know the cases where that has happened from Afghanistan to Somalia and others.

You are continuing to be disingenuous. What is the project here? Why would they want it to continue but not want the outcome. Please tell us. He says in the next line that you yourself cited, ‘for as long as you keep writing checks’. Have some shame sxb. This is bad even for you.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

You are continuing to be disingenuous. What is the project here? Why would they want it to continue but not want the outcome. Please tell us. He says in the next line that you yourself cited, ‘for as long as you keep writing checks’. Have some shame sxb. This is bad even for you.

Are you really struggling this much? Dude is speaking plain english as far as I can tell. Or this just playing dumb to waste my time. You can figure it out.

 

[TheLand]

Are you really struggling this much? Dude is speaking plain english as far as I can tell. Or this just playing dumb to waste my time. You can figure it out.

What? Dude, you need to stop lying. What even was this post? This is pathetic.