Do clans have the right to self determination

[Jaffar]

For example do clans have that right or is this only for ethnic groups Do the people have the right to claim they want autonomy even up to secession and do they have the right to also oppose it, For examle, also does the state owns the land or do the clans own the land

 

[Vacelere]

For example do clans have that right or is this only for ethnic groups Do the people have the right to claim they want autonomy even up to secession and do they have the right to also oppose it, For examle, also does the state owns the land or do the clans own the land

No one have that right only who is under the nationalism banner.

 

[Mohamedamiin120]

For example do clans have that right or is this only for ethnic groups Do the people have the right to claim they want autonomy even up to secession and do they have the right to also oppose it, For examle, also does the state owns the land or do the clans own the land

Clans do not have the right to self determination, if they did then this country would have been dissolved in the 90s.

 

[Galguduudguy]

For example do clans have that right or is this only for ethnic groups Do the people have the right to claim they want autonomy even up to secession and do they have the right to also oppose it, For examle, also does the state owns the land or do the clans own the land

It’s one of those rights that only exists at the end of a gun

 

[Mohamedamiin120]

It’s one of those rights that only exists at the end of a gun

Unfortunately true.

 

[El Nino]

Clans do not have the right to self determination because it harms the overall wellbeing of the whole ethnic group.

Somali clans nationwide are actively working against each other and thus have exteremely weakened our geopolitical standing. Gaal wexee u arkaayaan walaal, deriskooda oo muslim ah waa cadow.

I wouldn’t mind that somali clans ruled themselves, if every square meter of our lands would be solely under our control. Thats not the case and in order to achieve that we need to work together.

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[Jaffar]

Clans do not have the right to self determination because it harms the overall wellbeing of the whole ethnic group.

Somali clans nationwide are actively working against each other and thus have exteremely weakened our geopolitical standing. Gaal wexee u arkaayaan walaal, deriskooda oo muslim ah waa cadow.

I wouldn’t mind that somali clans ruled themselves, if every square meter of our lands would be solely under our control. Thats not the case and in order to achieve that we need to work together.

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The question, however, is this who has the authority to make decisions for whom? Or, by what right does one clan decide on behalf of another? This is where the real problem lies.

 

[caano_shaah]

Qabiil qaran ma noqdo. Being divided by clans will only serve the interests of our enemies as it would severely weaken us militarily.

 

[The Oponian Guild]

Yes, the more larger clans are basically nations that have had their own history of self rulership before the advent of colonialism.

instead of seeking to bring all somali under one umbrella, we should work to form a military pact of sorts and cooperate with one another, putting our adherence to Islam and a shared ancient origin at the forefront, that seems more feasible.

 

[El Nino]

The question, however, is this who has the authority to make decisions for whom? Or, by what right does one clan decide on behalf of another? This is where the real problem lies.

No clan has solely decided anything, modern day Somalia came to existence with the co-operation of various clans, practically all clans participated.

The problem is clans have reverted back to cawaannimo and shortsightedness. It shouldn’t be hard for clans to acknowledge that cooperation is the way forward.

The government is the FGS which is the successor state to all the previous governments. It has the authority and clans should abide by it. Its corrupt, but it can be salvaged.

 

[Jaffar]

Qabiil qaran ma noqdo. Being divided by clans will only serve the interests of our enemies as it would severely weaken us militarily.

Wu noqda is the qabil is big enough wu noqda Ogaden qaran wa noqda harti wa noqon karaan

 

[Jaffar]

No clan has solely decided anything, modern day Somalia came to existence with the co-operation of various clans, practically all clans participated.

The problem is clans have reverted back to cawaannimo and shortsightedness. It shouldn’t be hard for clans to acknowledge that cooperation is the way forward.

The government is the FGS which is the successor state to all the previous governments. It has the authority and clans should abide by it. Its corrupt, but it can be salvaged.

Here is the problem. Puntland feels its older then the sfg hence why they break ranks puntland says their constitution is superior to that of the sfg. Somaliland doesn’t even recognise the sfg . They even believe they are older then Somalia it’s self so how do we reconcile theirs opposing views

 

[Jaffar]

Yes, the more larger clans are basically nations that have had their own history of self rulership before the advent of colonialism.

instead of seeking to bring all somali under one umbrella, we should work to form a military pact of sorts and cooperate with one another, putting our adherence to Islam and a shared ancient origin at the forefront, that seems more feasible.

This is an excellent point hence why we have the 4,5 maybe we should establish a monarchy

 

[peterpeter]

Clans do not have the right to self determination because it harms the overall wellbeing of the whole ethnic group.

Somali clans nationwide are actively working against each other and thus have exteremely weakened our geopolitical standing. Gaal wexee u arkaayaan walaal, deriskooda oo muslim ah waa cadow.

I wouldn’t mind that somali clans ruled themselves, if every square meter of our lands would be solely under our control. Thats not the case and in order to achieve that we need to work together.

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disagree federalism is a cancer to a people who are inclined to kill each other over petty squabbles it can only happen with an educated harmonious population although the US was an exception

 

[Jaffar]

The question u should ask ur self why do you need federalism is it really about centralist every thing in the Capital or is the problem deeper of it is about centralist u can have a decentralised unitary state Insteaad of independent countries witharig weak central goverment . Somalis missunderstood federalism. Federalism doesn’t mean the federal goverment should be toothless with no actual power. Insigne. Texas and south carolina cutting ties with the federal govt of washinton makes no sense

 

[El Nino]

disagree federalism is a cancer to a people who are inclined to kill each other over petty squabbles it can only happen with an educated harmonious population although the US was an exception

This is true, however any other political system won't work currently back home. Federalism as weak as it is, is the best we have.

The goal should be mass educate young somalis rural and urban so they can grow out of the shortsightedness of somalis.

 

[Som]

Self determination is an international law concept.
As per international law the answer would be NO when it comes to external self determination and YESish when it comes to internal self determination.
The UN Charter talks about self determination for peoples. It doesn't specifically say what they mean by "peoples" but international organizations (UN, ICJ etc) rulings suggest that ''people" primarily means a group that has distinct languages , traditions, ethnic origins , consciousness of being a distinct people ecc + unity and sufficient population.
Somali clans don't fullfil the criterias , they may qualify for internal self determination aka autonomy but it would be a huge stretch to call for external self determination aka independence.
The only groups in Somalia which may have a very remote case to begin with iare mainly three but the answer would still be they have no specific right to self determination
1) minorities: while it's true that Bantus and reer Xamar are ethnic minorities they wouldn't qualify because they are way to scattered in the country to even think about independence.
2) rahanweyn : rahanweyn speak Maay which can and is often considered a different language even though closely related to maxaa tiri Somali. They wouldn't qualify though because rahanweyn are consider themselves to be ethnic Somalis
3) Somaliland: Somaliland is probably the strongest case and I say this as someone who is a unionist. I'd say Somaliland still doesn't qualify. Despite having a territory big enough and untied enough Somalilanders are Somalis. The right of self determination would be interpreted as the right of the Somali people as a whole which definitely includes Somaliland because of ethnic, cultural and historical reasons.

Also to conclude self determination is a complex concept designed specifically for colonized people, occupied people or groups under extreme hardship that have no other solution than independence.
In the case of Somali clans self-determination for each clan makes as much sense as talking about the right of self determination for the people of two different London neighborhoods

 

[Som]

The question u should ask ur self why do you need federalism is it really about centralist every thing in the Capital or is the problem deeper of it is about centralist u can have a decentralised unitary state Insteaad of independent countries witharig weak central goverment . Somalis missunderstood federalism. Federalism doesn’t mean the federal goverment should be toothless with no actual power. Insigne. Texas and south carolina cutting ties with the federal govt of washinton makes no sense

Federalism in Somalia is pretty much an excuse for the total lack of government control outside outside of Banadir and surrounding areas. Because the FGS has little to no power in PL , JL or even Galmudug they pretend that they are allowing them to do their own thing.
In a real federal system autonomy would be agreed upon by all federal members who would be on the same page with the federal government at least when it comes to the one basic law of any country which is the constitution. There's no federal country without having an organized central government first

 

[Som]

disagree federalism is a cancer to a people who are inclined to kill each other over petty squabbles it can only happen with an educated harmonious population although the US was an exception

Also federalism based solely on clan or ethnicity is a recipe for disaster.
Us , Germany, Brazil etc don't base their federal system on ethnicity but on different territories having different needs. The only somewhat federal country based partially on ethnicity that comes to mind is India but still the have a strong central government that can keep states united

 

[Jaffar]

Self determination is an international law concept.
As per international law the answer would be NO when it comes to external self determination and YESish when it comes to internal self determination.
The UN Charter talks about self determination for peoples. It doesn't specifically say what they mean by "peoples" but international organizations (UN, ICJ etc) rulings suggest that ''people" primarily means a group that has distinct languages , traditions, ethnic origins , consciousness of being a distinct people ecc + unity and sufficient population.
Somali clans don't fullfil the criterias , they may qualify for internal self determination aka autonomy but it would be a huge stretch to call for external self determination aka independence.
The only groups in Somalia which may have a very remote case to begin with iare mainly three but the answer would still be they have no specific right to self determination
1) minorities: while it's true that Bantus and reer Xamar are ethnic minorities they wouldn't qualify because they are way to scattered in the country to even think about independence.
2) rahanweyn : rahanweyn speak Maay which can and is often considered a different language even though closely related to maxaa tiri Somali. They wouldn't qualify though because rahanweyn are consider themselves to be ethnic Somalis
3) Somaliland: Somaliland is probably the strongest case and I say this as someone who is a unionist. I'd say Somaliland still doesn't qualify. Despite having a territory big enough and untied enough Somalilanders are Somalis. The right of self determination would be interpreted as the right of the Somali people as a whole which definitely includes Somaliland because of ethnic, cultural and historical reasons.

Also to conclude self determination is a complex concept designed specifically for colonized people, occupied people or groups under extreme hardship that have no other solution than independence.
In the case of Somali clans self-determination for each clan makes as much sense as talking about the right of self determination for the people of two different London neighborhoods

i dont think it really comes down to ethnic and religion maybe ethnic but define ethnic , eritrea tigrinya and ethiopia tigrigina are the same people , bot both fough for different self determination but on the same side against amhara., and the UN considered their struggle well atleast the eritrean one of self determination. i do agree the rahanweyn have a case because they have a distrinct language.. but some how Somaliland also Somaliland is something like scotland and somalia proper is like england and wales combined., scots speak english with a different accent reer woqoiyi do the same., and some how there was a distrinc history prior to colonialims , how ever form ethnic point of view the rahanweyn case is bigger because they actually speak a whole different language so to answer the question clans have the right to self determination but at the same time they dont