Europe and Mankind

[GemState]

Great article on why Non-Western societies trying to Westernize is a death sentence culturally. I'll post the summaries but the full article is here, it was written by a Russian in the 1920s.

Europe and Mankind—English translation

.book-toc { max-width: 8rem; } Europe and Mankind—English translation Translator’s notes Europe and Mankind is an interesting essay written by Nikolai Sergeyevich Trubetzkoy (1890–1938), who happens to be a first cousin thrice removed. He was primarily a linguist, but occasionally wrote on...

sashamaps.net

"The intelligentsia of Europeanized nations must tear off their blindfolds and free themselves from seduction by the Western mentality. They must understand clearly, firmly and irrevocably:

• that they were being deceived;
• that European culture is not something absolute, nor is it the culture of all mankind, but merely the creation of a limited and defined ethnic or ethnographic group of nations with a common history;
• that European culture is necessary only to that particular group of nations who created it;
• that it is in no way more perfect or “superior” to any other culture created by any other ethnic group, since there are no “higher” or “lower” cultures or nations, only cultures and nations more or less similar to one another;
• that, therefore, the adoption of Romano-Germanic culture by a nation who did not participate in its creation is not an absolute good and has no absolute moral force;
• that full, organic adoption of Romano-Germanic culture (or any alien culture in general), an adoption which allows continuing to create in the spirit of that culture and to keep up with the nations who created it, is possible only through anthropological mixing with Romano-Germans or even absorption by them;
• that without such mixing, only a proxy of full cultural assimilation is possible, where the “statics” of a culture are adopted, but not the “dynamics” – i.e. a nation who assimilate the current state of European culture seem unable to develop it further and must keep borrowing from Romano-Germans;
• that under such conditions this nation is forced to completely abandon independent cultural creativity, to live reflecting the light of Europe, to become an ape, constantly imitating the Romano-Germans;
• That, as a result, this nation will always “lag behind” the Romano-Germans, i.e., will adopt and reproduce the various stages of their cultural development with a certain delay and will find itself, in relation to the natural Europeans, in a disadvantageous, subordinate position, materially and spiritually dependent on them;
• That Europeanization is therefore an unqualified evil for every non-Romano-German nation;
• That this evil can, and therefore must, be fought with all one’s might. One has to become conscious of all these things not in an external way, but internally; not just to become conscious of, but to feel, live through and suffer these things. The truth must appear in all its nakedness, unadorned, without any remains of the great deception from which it must be purified. It must become clear and obvious that any kind of compromise is impossible: The impossibility of any kind of compromise must become clear and obvious: to fight is to fight."

 

[GemState]

The best way for a non Western society to naturally develop is by adopting the absolute minimum amount of technology needed to survive(agriculture, military, etc) as well as isolation but avoiding total modernization leaps(Revolutions, Great leaps forwards, etc) in order to maintain traditional culture and avoid fragmentation and becoming an Ersatz Western state.

Ideally you'd have a mechanism to avoid deviations from this. Japan tried this by having the Far Right do constant coup attempts and conduct political assassinations.

Aggressively Westernization leads to the fragmentation of society and your identity, and creates extremely dysfunctions that aren't seen anywhere in the West. A good example of this effect would be South Korea and it's extremely low fertility rates.

The Philippines would be an example of the worst case scenario, a completely dismembered society that looks towards Latin America and Spain rather than SEA.

 

[hayran]

The most livable Muslim countries are the ones that stayed true to their traditions, Saudi Arabia and the smaller petrostates. They imported all technical elements from the west, even the people. They were ruled by bedouins and their customs at the end of it all.

the oil is overrated, look at Iraq and Iran. Both oil rich countries squandered by the political instability from the reaction to these secular regimes. Arab nationalism in the case of Iraq and a fake goat herder dynasty for Iran, they both ended up going further backward.

The only exception here is turkey which has been dominated by turkified Greeks and caucasians who adopted the secular tradition, these guys were just going back to what they were before the ottomans. Ataturks turkey is losing out to erdogans Islamism as anatolias population increases

xoolo Africans of course took everything from Europe except the technology, truly ngmi

 

[Apostle]

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[Ahmedahmed5000]

The most livable Muslim countries are the ones that stayed true to their traditions, Saudi Arabia and the smaller petrostates. They imported all technical elements from the west, even the people. They were ruled by bedouins and their customs at the end of it all.

the oil is overrated, look at Iraq and Iran. Both oil rich countries squandered by the political instability from the reaction to these secular regimes. Arab nationalism in the case of Iraq and a fake goat herder dynasty for Iran, they both ended up going further backward.

The only exception here is turkey which has been dominated by turkified Greeks and caucasians who adopted the secular tradition, these guys were just going back to what they were before the ottomans. Ataturks turkey is losing out to erdogans Islamism as anatolias population increases

xoolo Africans of course took everything from Europe except the technology, truly ngmi

Tbh it's not that these petrostate are successful due to their traditionalist stance but the fact that they have security pacts with America, and with the window of oil money running out they're in a rush to push in massive reforms.

 

[hayran]

Tbh it's not that these petrostate are successful due to their traditionalist stance but the fact that they have security pacts with America, and with the window of oil money running out they're in a rush to push in massive reforms.

well yeah thats just a part of having smart leadership, they could have alliances with the british and americans without any drama because the ruling families had undisputed legitimacy among other clans and the populace.

if it wasn't the sauds but rather some western wannabe republic doing the same deal with the US you'd see big political upheaval

also if the price of oil went down to 0 today and forever, they have enough in the bank to keep them going for 150 years. MBS reforms have nothing to do with oil money

 

[reer]

@GemState are you bipolar? werent you calling for lgbtq in somalia?

 

[GemState]

@GemState are you bipolar? werent you calling for lgbtq in somalia?

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[محمود فارح]

well yeah thats just a part of having smart leadership, they could have alliances with the british and americans without any drama because the ruling families had undisputed legitimacy among other clans and the populace.

if it wasn't the sauds but rather some western wannabe republic doing the same deal with the US you'd see big political upheaval

also if the price of oil went down to 0 today and forever, they have enough in the bank to keep them going for 150 years. MBS reforms have nothing to do with oil money

Even if the oil runs out, they have the gas By the way, last month they discovered two gas fields in an area called (the Empty Quarter) Regardless of our opinions, it is an intelligent family that has the loyalty of entire tribes and can be considered one of the most important allies of America

 

[Kizaru]

Ancient egypt is a great example, You let westerners in, they will destroy your civilisation.
Cleopatra allowed that khanis Julius Caesar in to their country and not even 3 years later, egypt became a backwater state with no functioning government being passed around around by the persians and the greeks.

 

[El Nino]

So somalis need to find a local solutionn for modernisation and in order for that to happen we need a local solution for leadership.

@GemState How would you tackle this problem? Somali clans and even subsubclans are in constant conflict for resources and traditional peace agreements / treaties faciliated by clan elder seem to not work. Something needs to happen to get out of this monstrous hole.

 

[محمود فارح]

So somalis need to find a local solutionn for modernisation and in order for that to happen we need a local solution for leadership.

@GemState How would you tackle this problem? Somali clans and even subsubclans are in constant conflict for resources and traditional peace agreements / treaties faciliated by clan elder seem to not work. Something needs to happen to get out of this monstrous hole.

I always wonder what would happen if we were a monarchy? At least a constitutional monarchy? Democracy is not useful for a tribal society like ours. See an example of the Gulf countries. Most of them are monarchies and the “tribes” are loyal to them.

 

[GemState]

So somalis need to find a local solutionn for modernisation and in order for that to happen we need a local solution for leadership.

@GemState How would you tackle this problem? Somali clans and even subsubclans are in constant conflict for resources and traditional peace agreements / treaties faciliated by clan elder seem to not work. Something needs to happen to get out of this monstrous hole.

For Somalis? There are 2 options I can see, Integration with Ethiopia to fulfil the metahistory of Somalis, which is turning it into a Muslim majority state, being part of the apparatus of this state, then forming a distinct Ethiopian Muslim culture that is largely based on Somali culture.

Similar to how in Nigeria, the Hausa, Fulani Yoruba Muslim, and Kanuri form a political, demographic and religious alliance.

2nd option is far less cool, but creating a democratic, very decentralized state, tailoring it to Somali culture and smoothing out the edges over decades. Strong emphasis on our egalitarian culture and what not. It'd be boring, but we'd continue to grow slowly and silently, each clan doing their own thing and avoiding huge civil wars. Far from the worst option.

 

[reer]

For Somalis? There are 2 options I can see, Integration with Ethiopia to fulfil the metahistory of Somalis, which is turning it into a Muslim majority state, being part of the apparatus of this state, then forming a distinct Ethiopian Muslim culture that is largely based on Somali culture.

Similar to how in Nigeria, the Hausa, Fulani Yoruba Muslim, and Kanuri form a political, demographic and religious alliance.

2nd option is far less cool, but creating a democratic, very decentralized state, tailoring it to Somali culture and smoothing out the edges over decades. Strong emphasis on our egalitarian culture and what not. It'd be boring, but we'd continue to grow slowly and silently, each clan doing their own thing and avoiding huge civil wars. Far from the worst option.

somalis too sectarian to be decentralized and democratic but they wont say it. iraqis will admit it. they listen to the gun. that is why they are law abiding citizens under AS.

 

[mohammdov]

Japan imitated Europe in everything and became one of the greatest countries. Just say that some people are not Smart, progressive people because of their culture.

 

[hayran]

Japan imitated Europe in everything and became one of the greatest countries. Just say that some people are not Smart, progressive people because of their culture.

meiji era japan did go through some westernisation by copying their liberalism, architecture, legislature etc it was ultimately rejected by former samurai elite and that chapter ended with their nation utterly destroyed.
beyond art and science there hasnt been much westernisation going on in japan at all since 1945, despite the US writing their consitution. post war japan is actually a net cultural exporter the way i see it

and japans whole thing is to take from other civilisations and add it to their own, their script is from china, religion from india, science and art from the west etc.