Genetic Makeup of Kulubnarti Nubians

After recently coming across the genetic analysis of the Nubian mercenary who was found in Serbia, along with his very familiar haplogroups, I grew very curious as to what the population of Nubia must've been like. Of course, I'm not a professional, nor am I any more knowledgeable than the next person, really, but I wanted to run some calculators on the sample to see which of the two commonly spouted, contradictive narratives would best be reflected in his genetic makeup.

Theory A: Nubians were essentially entirely Dinka-like, with later Nubians becoming Arabised/Egyptised so it's only later that they resembled their modern counterparts, and by extension Horners.

Theory B: Nubians were Cushitic genetically, and only speak a Nilo-Saharan language due to a later language shift that came about through millennia of contact with neighbouring Nilo-Saharan speakers, facilitated by the Green Sahara(?).

I thought about how to go about it, strictly from a genetic standpoint (linguistic evidence of a/no language shift is indecisive atm, and also boring), and after about 30 seconds of thinking, I remembered Vahaduo and the publicly available Kulubnarti G25 coordinates. Although it wasn't ideal (really wanted the Roman mercenary as the extended timespan would've lent additional credence to whatever conclusion), I decided to go ahead with the Kulubnartians as the targets. I initially input every sample, but my high-performance laptop couldn't handle it (or maybe the browser idk idc), so I cut the number in half. For reference, I also added my own results as pure Somali, at least according to 23andMe.

For my sources, I used Savanna Pastoral Neolithic samples to represent the "Cushitic" component, Dinka samples to represent the "Dinka-like" component and, even with the genetic overlap, some ancient Levantine and Egyptian samples to represent the "Arabisation" event; maybe I trust the accuracy of G25 too much, idk. I also added a Ugandan, Bantu-like sample from 500 years ago just bcos.

The results were as follows:
1654766189044.png


What people don't consider is the possibility of the validity of both theories to some extent. If I'm right in assuming that Vahaduo can differentiate between Cushitic and admixed Nilote, it's clear to see the presence of both populations in the genomes of Kulubnartians over a 400 year time span. Cushitic DNA seems to be the most abundant, followed by Levantine and then Dinka. What baffles me, though, is the lack of Egyptian DNA in these populations. If these people were indeed, at least partially, the results of recent admixture, you'd assume that it would be Egyptian and not Levantine, and yet Levantine is significantly more prevalent.

Just something interesting I randomly decided to pursue about an hour ago, and it has really piqued my interest and so I decided to share. All answers, criticisms and questions regarding the process and validity of this are appreciated. I'm open to any suggestions too. I'm still relatively new and I'd like to learn more.

I attached the coordinates used in a PDF file cos I can't upload a .txt file and there's a character limit.
 

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After recently coming across the genetic analysis of the Nubian mercenary who was found in Serbia, along with his very familiar haplogroups, I grew very curious as to what the population of Nubia must've been like. Of course, I'm not a professional, nor am I any more knowledgeable than the next person, really, but I wanted to run some calculators on the sample to see which of the two commonly spouted, contradictive narratives would best be reflected in his genetic makeup.

Theory A: Nubians were essentially entirely Dinka-like, with later Nubians becoming Arabised/Egyptised so it's only later that they resembled their modern counterparts, and by extension Horners.

Theory B: Nubians were Cushitic genetically, and only speak a Nilo-Saharan language due to a later language shift that came about through millennia of contact with neighbouring Nilo-Saharan speakers, facilitated by the Green Sahara(?).

I thought about how to go about it, strictly from a genetic standpoint (linguistic evidence of a/no language shift is indecisive atm, and also boring), and after about 30 seconds of thinking, I remembered Vahaduo and the publicly available Kulubnarti G25 coordinates. Although it wasn't ideal (really wanted the Roman mercenary as the extended timespan would've lent additional credence to whatever conclusion), I decided to go ahead with the Kulubnartians as the targets. I initially input every sample, but my high-performance laptop couldn't handle it (or maybe the browser idk idc), so I cut the number in half. For reference, I also added my own results as pure Somali, at least according to 23andMe.

For my sources, I used Savanna Pastoral Neolithic samples to represent the "Cushitic" component, Dinka samples to represent the "Dinka-like" component and, even with the genetic overlap, some ancient Levantine and Egyptian samples to represent the "Arabisation" event; maybe I trust the accuracy of G25 too much, idk. I also added a Ugandan, Bantu-like sample from 500 years ago just bcos.

The results were as follows:
View attachment 225882

What people don't consider is the possibility of the validity of both theories to some extent. If I'm right in assuming that Vahaduo can differentiate between Cushitic and admixed Nilote, it's clear to see the presence of both populations in the genomes of Kulubnartians over a 400 year time span. Cushitic DNA seems to be the most abundant, followed by Levantine and then Dinka. What baffles me, though, is the lack of Egyptian DNA in these populations. If these people were indeed, at least partially, the results of recent admixture, you'd assume that it would be Egyptian and not Levantine, and yet Levantine is significantly more prevalent.

Just something interesting I randomly decided to pursue about an hour ago, and it has really piqued my interest and so I decided to share. All answers, criticisms and questions regarding the process and validity of this are appreciated. I'm open to any suggestions too. I'm still relatively new and I'd like to learn more.

I attached the coordinates used in a PDF file cos I can't upload a .txt file and there's a character limit.
Kulubnarti is close to the Egyptian border. I think they aren't representative of Nubians as a whole especially in pre christian era.
I guess that the Nubians depicted as pitch black by the Egyptians were heavily Dinka like and then admixed with cushitic like populations
 
They are mostly a mix of Egyptian,Cushites, and Nilo-Saharans.I don't think they carry any real Levantine ancestry besides whatever was passed down by Egyptians & Ancient Cushites.
 
Kulubnarti is close to the Egyptian border. I think they aren't representative of Nubians as a whole especially in pre christian era.
I guess that the Nubians depicted as pitch black by the Egyptians were heavily Dinka like and then admixed with cushitic like populations
Every ancient sample points towards them being very Eurasian shifted. There's no reason to believe they were not just as mixed beyond Egyptian depictions; all of which were very obviously exaggerated, as can be seen through their depictions of Asiatics and Libyans. Every depiction of Nubians by Egyptians was made with the intention of being able to differentiate between the two populations, and what better way to do that than exaggerating the difference in skin colour. Let's also not act like modern Cushites like the Beja aren't approaching pitch black lol.

I think they depicted themselves a lot more accurately through their own wall relief art and statues, where they look very similar to modern Nubians and a lot less like Dinkas.
 
Every ancient sample points towards them being very Eurasian shifted. There's no reason to believe they were not just as mixed beyond Egyptian depictions; all of which were very obviously exaggerated, as can be seen through their depictions of Asiatics and Libyans. Every depiction of Nubians by Egyptians was made with the intention of being able to differentiate between the two populations, and what better way to do that than exaggerating the difference in skin colour. Let's also not act like modern Cushites like the Beja aren't approaching pitch black lol.

I think they depicted themselves a lot more accurately through their own wall relief art and statues, where they look very similar to modern Nubians and a lot less like Dinkas.

I don't think the Nubians ever language shifted from being 'Cushitic' speakers to Nilo-Saharan speakers; recent linguistic evidence would suggest that the Kasu of Kush, the Nubians of the Western Desert, the Nara-Kunama and other Nilo-Saharans have their origins in Wadi Howar -- in Darfur and Chad.

Look at the time of the admixture event for that paper on the Lower Nubians... the earliest admixture period was long after Kush had already been established in Upper Nubia.

Using 815 CE as the midpoint of the calibrated modeled age range for Kulubnarti, this places admixture occurring on average during the early-2nd to late-3rd centuries CE (95%CI), although the dates obtained with this method are based on a model of a single pulse of admixture and thus reflect an intermediate value if the true history includes multiple waves or continuous admixture, which is likely at Kulubnarti given the individual-level variance in ancestry proportions.
 
I don't think the Nubians ever language shifted from being 'Cushitic' speakers to Nilo-Saharan speakers; recent linguistic evidence would suggest that the Kasu of Kush, the Nubians of the Western Desert, the Nara-Kunama and other Nilo-Saharans have their origins in Wadi Howar -- in Darfur and Chad.

Look at the time of the admixture event for that paper on the Lower Nubians... the earliest admixture period was long after Kush had already been established in Upper Nubia.
Single pulse lol. The limitation that very clearly apply to the interaction I’m pointing to is right there. I was aware of that before posting. The difference in admixture levels can be explained away in the same way, especially considering the different ancestries these people derive from.

If it were as recent as that, the calculator would have surely picked it up as so, rather than assigning such large proportions of their ancestry to Southern Cushitic speakers. There’s also minimal Egyptian admixture, so where would these Levantines come from? It’s clearly from a more ancient admixture event, or through contact and admixture with Cushites.
 
Look at the time of the admixture event for that paper on the Lower Nubians... the earliest admixture period was long after Kush had already been established in Upper Nubia.
This is objectively false, plain and simple.

1655098931631.png

Pre neolithic Sudanese remains ("al Khiday pre-Mesolithic") show very strong affinities to Eurasian rich lower Nubians, a large amount of the so called "Eurasian" admixture event happened before the Dynastic period. These remains wouldn't have even had Neolithic or post Neolithic Levantine ancestry which would make them even more Eurasian.

Pastoral Neolithic show heavy amounts of Eurasian ancestry, they predate the admixure date in the paper by a few thousand years.
 
This is objectively false, plain and simple.

View attachment 226255
Pre neolithic Sudanese remains ("al Khiday pre-Mesolithic") show very strong affinities to Eurasian rich lower Nubians, a large amount of the so called "Eurasian" admixture event happened before the Dynastic period. These remains wouldn't have even had Neolithic or post Neolithic Levantine ancestry which would make them even more Eurasian.

Pastoral Neolithic show heavy amounts of Eurasian ancestry, they predate the admixure date in the paper by a few thousand years.

I'm well aware of the pre-Mesolithic Al Khiday population, but it's my understanding that they didn't stay long and can't be directly linked with subsequent cultures in Upper 'Nubia'. Nilotes took their place after the Al-Khiday population departed.
 
but it's my understanding that they didn't stay long and can't be directly linked with subsequent cultures in Upper 'Nubia'. Nilotes took their place after the Al-Khiday population departed.
They can be linked to lower Nubians/Egyptians due to how close they cluster with them plus they share cultural practises with groups such as the Natufians and Taforalt, 2 peoples who are intimately linked to the Eurasian component of North East Africans. They didn't show affinities to the later Al Khiday people, which just means they didn't stay in that specific area but still existed and are ancestral to Egyptians/Nubians, look at how far removed they and other Lower/Central Nubians are from JSA(Jebel Sahaba), a Sudanese remain thats actually probably ancestral to Nilotes.
 
They can be linked to lower Nubians/Egyptians due to how close they cluster with them plus they share cultural practises with groups such as the Natufians and Taforalt, 2 peoples who are intimately linked to the Eurasian component of North East Africans. They didn't show affinities to the later Al Khiday people, which just means they didn't stay in that specific area but still existed and are ancestral to Egyptians/Nubians, look at how far removed they and other Lower/Central Nubians are from JSA(Jebel Sahaba), a Sudanese remain thats actually probably ancestral to Nilotes.

Interesting.

Just how Eurasian was the pre-Mesolithic Al Khiday population?

Also, what do you make of the recent linguistic evidence demonstrating that the Kasu of Kush, Nubians, Nara and half a dozen other Nilo-Saharan languages have their origins in Wadi Howar in Darfur-Chad around 5000 BC?

Source and link:

The Wadi Howar Diaspora and its role in the spread of East Sudanic languages from the fourth to the first millenia BCE​



I don't think these groups were ever culturally 'Cushitic', even if they did mix with Eurasian shifted populations at some point. The Beja seem to be the only true 'Cushites' in Sudan.
 
Just how Eurasian was the pre-Mesolithic Al Khiday population?
No way to know for sure but I think they were predominantly Eurasian-like, a large amount of their Eurasian ancestry could be native to that region.

I see ancient Egyptians and lower Nubians being Al Khiday like + Neolithic/Post Neolithic Levantine + Dinka.
Also, what do you make of the recent linguistic evidence demonstrating that the Kasu of Kush, Nubians, Nara and half a dozen other Nilo-Saharan languages have their origins in Wadi Howar in Darfur-Chad around 5000 BC?
IDK the relevance of this? Please explain the implications.

I don't think these groups were ever culturally 'Cushitic', even if they did mix with Eurasian shifted populations at some point. The Beja seem to be the only true 'Cushites' in Sudan.
I never said those Nilo Saharan groups were culturally Cushitic. I don't understand how you could gather that from my post lol.

If you think Lower Nubia was historically Nilote territory during the Pharaonic period, you have to explain the Pastoral Neolithic results, they are the closest thing to early Nubian DNA we will get for a while and I'm sure you're aware they are rich in Eurasian ancestry and hail from Sudan/Upper Egypt, indirectly telling us what those populations looked like.
 
Single pulse lol. The limitation that very clearly apply to the interaction I’m pointing to is right there. I was aware of that before posting. The difference in admixture levels can be explained away in the same way, especially considering the different ancestries these people derive from.

If it were as recent as that, the calculator would have surely picked it up as so, rather than assigning such large proportions of their ancestry to Southern Cushitic speakers. There’s also minimal Egyptian admixture, so where would these Levantines come from? It’s clearly from a more ancient admixture event, or through contact and admixture with Cushites.
They don't have actual Levantine ancestry.You are chatting shit now and makes zero historical sense, they are a mixture of Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Cushites (C-Group, Early Kerma,Pan-Grave) and Nilo-Saharans
 
No way to know for sure but I think they were predominantly Eurasian-like, a large amount of their Eurasian ancestry could be native to that region.

Hmm, I thought they would be Basal Eurasians -> indigenous North Africans that weren't actually Eurasian.

IDK the relevance of this? Please explain the implications.

The implications is that it rebuts the notion that the modern Nubian population, the Kushites and other Nilo-Saharans are only language shifted Cushites. I can definitely understand how these Nilo-Saharan groups mixed with Cushites and Eurasians, but I'm adamant that they maintained their original languages and Identities.

If you think Lower Nubia was historically Nilote territory during the Pharaonic period, you have to explain the Pastoral Neolithic results, they are the closest thing to early Nubian DNA we will get for a while and I'm sure you're aware they are rich in Eurasian ancestry and hail from Sudan/Upper Egypt, indirectly telling us what those populations looked like.

I'm not concerned about Lower 'Nubia' at all; it's Upper 'Nubia' that I'm really concerned about; I want to know what groups lived there and what relations they shared with Nilotes.
 
The implications is that it rebuts the notion that the modern Nubian population, the Kushites and other Nilo-Saharans are only language shifted Cushites.
I've mostly seen this claim for Nubian speakers, not other Nilo-Saharans but I don't see how your link disproves that in the slightest
Hmm, I thought they would be Basal Eurasians -> indigenous North Africans that weren't actually Eurasian.
Well yh I believe something along these lines, that pre-Neolithic North Africans were rich in Basal Eurasian, terms like "Basal Eurasian" and "non-African" are often references to phylogeny, not geography.
 
I've mostly seen this claim for Nubian speakers, not other Nilo-Saharans but I don't see how your link disproves that in the slightest

The link makes a pretty good case that the ancestors of the Nubians, Kushites and other Nilo-Saharans have their origins in Darfur-Chad and that all these languages are related; if the Nubians were language shifted 'Cushites', then the same case would have to be made for the Kushites of Meroe and other Nilo-Saharan speakers.

What Nilo-Saharan population was strong enough to make the Kushites, the Nubians and Nara shift from Cushitic speakers to Nilo-Saharan speakers?

When did this ostensibly happen? How did this happen? No one has even attempted to provide an answer to any of these questions.
 
They don't have actual Levantine ancestry.You are chatting shit now and makes zero historical sense, they are a mixture of Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Cushites (C-Group, Early Kerma,Pan-Grave) and Nilo-Saharans
Look at the results, smoothbrain. Im not talking out of my ass.
 

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