Kandakes of Kush

[Nilotic]

Kandake was the royal title for queens and queen mothers of the ancient African Kingdom of Kush, which was an ancient Nubian state centred on the confluences of the Blue Nile, White Nile and the River Atbara in what is now the Republic of Sudan.

Nubian Queens and Warriors - The Kandakes - Mighty Women of Africa - Editions Lifestyle Black History Month & Windrush Magazines, Newsletters

By Joy Sigaud These great powerful women of the ancient African continent continue to fascinate and intrigue. Whilst the world became obsessed with the findings and wonders of the pyramids and their contents the thousands of stories of the individual lives of these black people remain largely...

editionbhm.com

It's a fascinating read.

The term 'Kandaka' was used during the Sudanese protests.

The woman above was dubbed the 'Kandaka'.

I've been trying to get that term to catch on here. I don't want to hear anyone say...

 

[-adobe_7853]

That woman is from an arab tribe, Kandaka is a nubian term.

why do you care about Nubians if you are a nilotic? Seems peculiar?

 

[Nilotic]

That woman is from an arab tribe, Kandaka is a nubian term.

why do you care about Nubians if you are a nilotic? Seems peculiar?

The Kushites were technically not 'Nubian' at all; they were a separate ethnicity (Kasu) that were conquered by the Nubae ('Nubians') after Kush declined.

Ancient Kush was an empire and Nilotics were evidently part of that as evinced by the depictions in Egyptian tombs. Virtually every Sudanese population has a genetic Nilotic base.

Nilotics were present in North Sudan from 10, 000 BC to the 15th Century.

Genetic data was extracted from a site in North Sudan (Kadruka) and the results showed a predominance of Nilotic genes; the sample was 60% haplogroup A (a Nilotic marker) and 40% haplogroup E -- an Afrasan marker.

I haven't examined the mtdna, but it's likely also Nilotic.

 

[-adobe_7853]

The Kushites were technically not 'Nubian' at all; they were a separate ethnicity (Kasu) that were conquered by the Nubae ('Nubians') after Kush declined.

Ancient Kush was an empire and Nilotics were evidently part of that as evinced by the depictions in Egyptian tombs. Virtually every Sudanese population has a genetic Nilotic base.

Nilotics were present in North Sudan from 10, 000 BC to the 15th Century.

Genetic data was extracted from a site in North Sudan (Kadruka) and the results showed a predominance of Nilotic genes; the sample was 60% haplogroup A (a Nilotic marker) and 40% haplogroup E -- an Afrasan marker.

I haven't examined the mtdna, but it's likely also Nilotic.

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Makes sense your one of those delusional Nilotics who think they come from Nubians.
Cushites originate from north Sudan and southern Egypt but nilotes originate from South Sudan and western Ethiopia.

It’s like claiming Bantus were the ancient Egyptians yet Bantus never reached the region nor is their genetic testing backing it up.

Nilotics historically never reached past kordofan and nubia was never south of dongola.

Nubians used to enslave nilotes in the 6th century, if anything you should hate them.

genetic studies show no difference from 10th century to until today in nubian regions.

all cushites have a “proto-nilotic” component but not a Nilotic one.

this is how Nubians would draw themselves in their tombs thousands of years ago.

 

[Nilotic]

Makes sense your one of those delusional Nilotics who think they come from Nubians.

Nilotics historically never reached past kordofan and nubia was never south of dongola.

Nubians used to enslave nilotes in the 6th century, if anything you should hate them.

genetic studies show no difference from 10th century to until today in nubian regions.

all cushites have a “proto-nilotic” component but not a Nilotic one.

this is how Nubians would draw themselves in their tombs thousands of years ago.

Where did I say that I was 'Nubian'? Or that Nilotics are descendants of 'Nubians'?

I assume you actually think that the Kushites were 'Nubians' or that the Kushites were Beja type 'Cushites'. That's simply not the case.

I said that Kush was an empire; it had great influence on all the surrounding kingdoms; it was able to get Wawat and Punt to participate in an attack on Egypt.

The map of ancient Sudanese kingdoms extended to where Nilotics resided.

Nilotics were present as far North as Wadi Halfa and interacted with Egypt in the dynastic period.

Mesolithic Wadi Halfa, site 117, Wadi Tushka and Nabta Playa all point to Nilotic presence.

Are you talking about 10th Century BC?

Please produce evidence of Nubian enslavement of Nilotic -- around Yam.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

Cushites in Sudan

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

@Nilotic Cushites and Nilotes are the same. Cushites are Nilotes mixed with Natufians. Ancient Natufians were haplogroup EM35 like the Cushites. The original Afro Asiatic people were Natufians.

 

[Nilotic]

Cushites in Sudan

Those are Beja people.

Ancient Kush was 'Nilo-Saharan' while the Beja are 'Cushites' that were subject to their power. The linguistic term 'Cushite' has unfortunately been elided (and conflated) with Kush. It's not the same thing.

 

[-adobe_7853]

Where did I say that I was 'Nubian'? Or that Nilotics are descendants of 'Nubians'?

I assume you actually think that the Kushites were 'Nubians' or that the Kushites were Beja type 'Cushites'. That's simply not the case.

Nilotics were present as far North as Wadi Halfa and interacted with Egypt in the dynastic period.

Mesolithic Wadi Halfa, site 117, Wadi Tushka and Nabta Playa all point to Nilotic presence.

Are you talking about 10th Century BC?

Please produce evidence of Nubian enslavement of Nilotics.

El kurru royal burial sites stretch back to the 8th century.

you can argue the “nubian” identity wasn’t completely formed thousands of years ago but the same can be said for many other groups if this is the criteria.
There isn’t genetic difference between the ones residing in the area thousands of years ago until today.

genetic testing today shows little to no difference between Beja and Nubians.

there isn’t much genetic testing available other than one from between 6-10th century ce.

can you please post the study about wadi halfa?


It is well known Nubians would capture slaves from kordofan and darfur and sell them even north in Egyptian markets up north.
Nilotic slaves even made up nubian conscripts in the pre Islamic era.

 

[Nilotic]

You keep mentioning the Nubians and Kush as though they were the same thing. The Kasu (Kush) and the Nubae ('Nubians') were not part of the same ethnicity. The Nubians have their origins in Darfur and migrated to the Nile from there.

Nubians were first mentioned by Hesiod in 700 BC.

I'm going to meticulously blow your mind.

I'm going to provide some much needed historical context regarding the Nubians; I'll provide material on their origins in Darfurn and how they found themselves to be on the banks of the Nile in Southern Egypt. The Nubians were called 'Nubae', 'Nobate', 'Noba', 'Nobiin', 'Nuba' and 'Nubian'.


Origins in Darfur:


According to the linguist Robin Thelwall

We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier.

the Egyptian Sudan, Budge speaks of these Nobatae or Nuba as "a powerful tribe of nomads who lived in the Western Desert and adds "The Nobatae appear to have come originally from Dar Fur and Kordofan and in Diocletian's time their settlements extended to the Oasis of Kharga ." Again he says "The people who lived in the deserts on the West of the Nile... were known to classical writers as 'Nubae' or 'Nubians', and 'Nobadae' or 'Nobatae' . In Roman times the Nubians consisted of a league of great tribes of the Western Desert."( A History of the Arabs in the Sudan)

Darfur had its own Nubian languages; one of them (Meidob) is now extinct. It's clear that the Nubians came from this area.


Roman invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt:


Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD) details the dynamics in Southern Egypt; he details the security threats posed by the Blemmyae and the Nubians. He then outlines the steps taken by Emperor Diocletian:



My evidence concerning the invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt by Diocletian.

...] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians.
And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.

Nubian relations with the kingdom of Kush

The parts on the left side of the course of the Nile are inhabited by the Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroe, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Ethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms (Kirwan 1974: 46). The composition of what these separate kingdoms might be is very difficult to sort out historically and geographically. Generally, it seems the Nubian tribes settled between the kingdom of Meroe in the South and Egypt in the North. The Nubians were perceived as "piratical" maurading tribes disrupting the trade between Egypt and the lucrative Sub-Saharan world represented by the kingdoms of Meroe and Aksum. ( The Encyclopaedia of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, John Anthony)

Nubian infiltration of the Kushite kingdom:


According to D. A. Welsby

In
the sources we have a plethora of names which may refer to a single people, among them Nubae, Nobades, Nobates, Annoubades, Noba, Nouba and Red Noba. The significance of these names is unclear, they may be different names used loosely by our sources, Greek, Roman, Aksumite, Byzantine and Arab, for the same people, refer to sub-groups, or refer to different peoples altogether. Certainly archaeologically we cannot recognise different cultural assemblages to match each name, but we do not have a single culture covering the whole of the area occupied by these peoples. It is these people or peoples who coalesced into the three Nubian kingdoms first attested in the sixth century.

It is assumed that the Nubians gradually infiltrated the Kushite state, with or without the acquiescence of the Kushite rulers, and that, with the weakening of Kushite central authority, they were able to take over the reins of power and eclipse the Kushite ruling class. Another manifestation of this rise to prominence is the sudden appearance on the one hand of their traditional hand-made ceramics in the southern part of the middle Nile Valley, and the demise of the finer Kushite pottery as well as the apparent demise of the Kushite state and religious institutions, Kushite art, architecture, and literacy in the Meroitic language.

A graffito in Greek, carved on the wall of the former Temple of Isis at Philae sometime after 537, reads ‘I, Theodosios, a Nubian’ (Nouba) and provides evidence for the name used by the Nubians to describe their ethnicity.

 

[Nilotic]

El kurru royal burial sites stretch back to the 8th century.

you can argue the “nubian” identity wasn’t completely formed thousands of years ago but the same can be said for many other groups if this is the criteria.
There isn’t genetic difference between the ones residing in the area thousands of years ago until today.

genetic testing today shows little to no difference between Beja and Nubians.

there isn’t much genetic testing available other than one from between 6-10th century ce.

can you please post the study about wadi halfa?


It is well known Nubians would capture slaves from kordofan and darfur and sell them even north in Egyptian markets up north.
Nilotic slaves even made up nubian conscripts in the pre Islamic era.

The Kushites were not 'Nubians', so I don't see why you keep treating them as virtual synonyms.

What is the relevance of mentioning the Kushitic El kurru royal burial sites? Do you have genetic data on their population showing direct genetic links and continuity between them and modern Nubians?

You seem to think that I have some interest in the Nubians and their medieval Christian kingdoms... I don't; my only interest is in the populations prior to the Arab conquest.

The modern Nubians are a relatively recent admixed population.

an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig)

Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago."

Source: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

Nilotics didn't live in Kordofan or Darfur, so you've not provided the requested evidence for the Nubian enslavement of Nilotics. Nothing in your sources mentions Nilotics being enslaved; a general reference to people in the Southwest (where we didn't live) being subject to slave raids is meaningless.

 

[-adobe_7853]

The Kushites were not 'Nubians', so I don't see why you keep treating them as virtual synonyms.

What is the relevance of mentioning the Kushitic El kurru royal burial sites? Do you have genetic data on their population showing direct genetic links and continuity between them and modern Nubians?

You seem to think that I have some interest in the Nubians and their medieval Christian kingdoms... I don't; my only interest is in the populations prior to the Arab conquest.

The modern Nubians are a relatively recent admixed population.





Source: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

Nilotics didn't live in Kordofan or Darfur, so you've not provided the requested evidence for the Nubian enslavement of Nilotics. Nothing in your sources mentions Nilotics being enslaved; a general reference to people in the Southwest (where we didn't live) being subject to slave raids is meaningless.

It says south Sudanese slaves. Who do you think those Dinka are? Bantus?

all Arab tribes settled south of dongola anyway. All nubian tribes live north of the Arab ones.
Where is the arab settlement near the first cataract?

there was no conquest of nubia. there were two battles of dongola where Nubians defeated the Arabs who later settled as refugees south of Egypt after being expelled by salahuddin.

here is a genetic study before any Arab migrated south of nubia in the 14th century.

 

[Nilotic]

It says south Sudanese slaves. Who do you think those Dinka are? Bantus?

all Arab tribes settled south of dongola anyway. All nubian tribes live north of the Arab ones.
Where is the arab settlement near the first cataract?

here is a genetic study before any Arab migrated south of nubia in the 14th century.

First you mention Darfur and Kordofan, and switch gears when I point out that Nilotics have never resided there; you're now saying that your sources specifically say "south Sudanese" when they actually don't; your source mentions populations to the South and Southwest; the Nuba lived to their Southwest and the Gumuz and other groups lived to their immediate South.

There is no mention of Nilotics, let alone Dinka.

Now, as for genetics:

Did you even attempt to read that source on the Kulubnarti samples and how different they are to modern Nubians?

That particular sample shows an admixed population that is paternally African and maternally Eurasian; modern Nubians are the complete opposite -- they're paternally Eurasian and maternally African... so why on earth are you trying to present populations with opposite admixture composites as identical?

There is no continuity between them; the admixture events occurred at different time periods; the admixture composites are different. Please sit down... you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


The Kulubnarti population has no direct relation to modern Nubians..

 

[-adobe_7853]

First you mention Darfur and Kordofan, and switch gears when I point out that Nilotics have never resided there; you're now saying that your sources specifically say "south Sudanese" when they actually don't; your source mentions populations to the South and Southwest; the Nuba lived to their Southwest and the Gumuz and other groups lived to their immediate South.

There is no mention of Nilotics, let alone Dinka.

Now, as for genetics:

Did you even attempt to read that source on the Kulubnarti samples and how different they are to modern Nubians?

That particular sample shows an admixed population that is paternally African and maternally Eurasian; modern Nubians are the complete opposite -- they're paternally Eurasian and maternally African... so why on earth are you trying to present populations with opposite admixture composites as identical?

There is no continuity between them; the admixture events occurred at different time periods; the admixture composites are different. Please sit down... you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


The Kulubnarti population has no direct relation to modern Nubians..

You claimed the pre Islamic Nubians had no Eurasian ancestors but now you change the subject.
The Eurasian component is from the Neolithic era and is over 3,000+ years old and found in the Beja as well who show genetic affinity.

Just bring one genetic study to prove that there is as a population displacement to support your theory.

you tried to use the nilo saharan family tree that isn’t even widely accepted by linguists to show concrete affiliation.

it’s well known cushites originate from southern Egypt and northern Sudan then migrated to east africa.

as far as slaves go all these regions of kordofan, darfur, and South Sudan supplied Slaves to those north.
Muhammad Ali pasha even conscripted slaves. Who do you think helped him capture them? Nubian and arab tribes.

 

[Nilotic]

You claimed the pre Islamic Nubians had no Eurasian ancestors but now you change the subject.
The Eurasian component is from the Neolithic era and is over 3,000+ years old and found in the Beja as well who show genetic affinity.

Just bring one genetic study to prove that there is as a population displacement to support your theory.

you tried to use the nilo saharan family tree that isn’t even widely accepted by linguists to show concrete affiliation.

it’s well known cushites originate from southern Egypt and northern Sudan then migrated to east africa.

as far as slaves go all these regions of kordofan, darfur, and South Sudan supplied Slaves to those north.
Muhammad Ali pasha even conscripted slaves. Who do you think helped him capture them? Nubian and arab tribes.

That's it? That's your riposte?

How many times must it be repeated to you that the admixed Kulubnarti population has a completely different admixture composition to the one observed in modern Nubian populations and that therefore they cannot be presented as a population with genetic continuity?

Where does it say in the study that the admixture event for the Kulubnarti population took place in the Neolithic?

Here is what the study actually says about when the admixture event took place, and it's not in the Neolithic:

We pooled the individuals from Kulubnarti (again excluding outliers) and, using Dinka and Levant_BAIA as a reference pair, estimated admixture to have occurred an average of ∼22.2±1.4 generations, or ∼620±40 years (95%CI, ∼700-545 years), before the studied individuals lived, assuming a generation time of 28 years62 (Supplementary Data 11). Using 815 CE as the midpoint of the calibrated modeled age range for Kulubnarti, this places admixture occurring on average during the early-2nd to late-3rd centuries CE (95%CI)

Stop lying.

The study itself says this:

Present-day Nubians are not directly descended from the Christian Period people from Kulubnarti without additional admixture, attesting to the dynamic history of interaction that continues to shape the cultural and genetic landscape of Nubia.

Genetic studies of present-day Nubians reveal a mix of sub-Saharan African- and West Eurasian-related ancestry, but the mixture is largely a result of the Arab conquest of the late-1st and early-2nd millennia CE20, a time during which people with West Eurasian-related ancestry spread southward along the Nile through Egypt and into Nubia1,4.

We have uniparental aDNA from Neolithic Sudan (Kadruka) with Nilotic Paternal markers -- Y-DNA A-M13.

A3-M13 is typical of eastern Africa, where it is found with a frequency as high as 40 % and is prevalent in the Nilo-Saharan populations, in particular among Nilotic pastoralists ....The topology and geographic distribution (Additional file 2: Figures S3 and S4) of both A3-M13 and E-M2 suggest that these lineages were brought to the Sahara from the southern regions, while E-M78 and R-V88 seem to have followed the opposite route."

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....18-1393-5#Fig3

Source on Kadruka:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Your complete inability to separate the misnomer that is the "Cushitic" linguistic group with the actual Kushitic State (Nilo + Saharan) is precisely why you're unable to learn.

The Kushites were not "Cushitic". The Nubians were also not "Cushitic". I have no concern about the the linguistic "Cushitic" group and their origins; my concern is for Nilotic and Saharan populations that dominated the ancient Sudanese landscape.

Nilotics only experienced slave raids at the hands of the Turks, Egyptians and the Afro-Arabs, but it was the Nuba and the non-Nilotic 'Fertit' populations that bore the brunt of that scourge.

Nice trying to somehow present the depredations wrought on the Darfurians, Kordofanian and non-Nilotic South Sudanese 'Fertit' populations as being perpetrated on Nilotics.

 

[Macalin dheerow]

Watching this first ever FKD battle where both opponents are not somalis

 

[World]

No genetic study has ever pointed towards North Sudan being inhabited by Nilotes in terms of autosomal. It has always been occupied by people who are intermediate/mixed between Euroasian and African people, just like today. Using linguistics, pictures, or fake history won’t change the facts. Haplogroups don’t mean shit either.

Seems like the WE WUZ KANGZ epidemic affects Nilotic people too.

 

[King Khufu]

LONG LIVE QUEEN CANDICE
#4MyNiggaz

 

[Nilotic]

No genetic study has ever pointed towards North Sudan being inhabited by Nilotes in terms of autosomal. It has always been occupied by people who are intermediate/mixed between Euroasian and African people, just like today. Using linguistics, pictures, or fake history won’t change the facts. Haplogroups don’t mean shit either.

Seems like the WE WUZ KANGZ epidemic affects Nilotic people too.

Yes, let's just ignore anthropological evidence, aDNA and the historical consensus that Nilotics occupied the North and that they migrated out of the Gezira in recent memory.

You must be really daft because we've been citing genetic studies on the admixture events and specific time periods were cited by the experts.

The Nubians are a recent admixed population; get over it.

 

[World]

Yes, let's just ignore anthropological evidence and other aDNA and the historical consensus that Nilotics occupied the North and that they migrated out of the Gezira in recent memory.

I don’t doubt the fact that at some point in history, you may have invaded North Sudan for a short time, but all genetic studies in terms of autosomal point towards North Sudan being occupied by a population that clusters on a PCA plot with the modern day inhabitants. BTW, the Christian Nubian study you said that they were paternally African. That’s not true, none of the samples had Nilo-Saharan Y-DNA. They were majority E1b1b, and they also were not 100 % maternally Euroasian but mixed just like modern day Horners and Bejas.