LIVE: Catalan Independence Referendum
- Thread starter Benjamin
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Steamdevolopment
VIP
The right of self-determination is confronted with sovereignty and as always sovereignty wins.
Let this be a lesson to somaliland, right of self-determination is aspirational at best
Let this be a lesson to somaliland, right of self-determination is aspirational at best
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Me too. Reer ictitraf have been puttting on body-suits to make Catalonia happen, so they could too.
The spanish gov wont accept it
Benjamin
någon :)
Von
With blood and Iron will we reach the fatherland
Spain has controlled Catalonia since the 1400s, Queen Isabella married the King of Aragon aka greater Catalonia, They aint going no where and even if just pops off. Spain knows that no one in Europe would dare support them in fear their own secessionist movements go crazy and anyways they hold a referendum every few years and nothing happened.
However if it works out, i demand a referendum for Western Somalia
Hades
b
Over 400 people injured, things are getting nasty:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...pendence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...pendence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live
Benjamin
någon :)
Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'
Media captionCatalans sing their anthem 'Els Segadors', or 'The Reapers'
Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.
He said the door was open to a unilateral declaration of independence after Catalan officials said voters had backed secession with a 42.3% turnout.
Spain's government has warned it could suspend Catalan autonomy.
The constitutional court banned the vote and almost 900 people were hurt as police tried to stop it going ahead.
Officers from the national police and paramilitary Civil Guard seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Catalans had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote.
More than 2.2 million people were reported to have voted, according to Catalan authorities, out of 5.3 million registered voters. Just under 90% of those who voted backed independence, they said.
A Catalan spokesman said more than 750,000 votes could not be counted because polling stations were closed and urns were confiscated.
What have Catalan and Spanish leaders said?
"With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form of a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address.
Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionCatalan leader Carles Puigdemont was flanked by members of his government as he made his statement
"My government in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."
The Spanish prime minister spoke of a "mockery" of democracy.
"At this hour I can tell you in the strongest terms what you already know and what we have seen throughout this day. There has not been a referendum on self-determination in Catalonia," Mr Rajoy said.
Spain's justice minister warned that any declaration of independence could lead to article 155 of the country's constitution being invoked which allows the national government to intervene in the running of an autonomous region.
"We are not here to divide Spaniards... but if someone tries to declare independence on behalf of a part of Spain's territory, that cannot be done because it is beyond their powers," said Rafael Catalá.
More than 40 trade unions and Catalan associations called a region-wide strike on Tuesday due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms".
How bad was the violence?
TV images showed Spanish police kicking would-be voters and pulling women out of polling stations by their hair.
Catalan medical officials said 844 people had been hurt in clashes, including 33 police. The majority had minor injuries or had suffered from anxiety attacks.
The BBC's Tom Burridge in Barcelona witnessed police being chased away from one polling booth after they had raided it.
TV footage showed riot police using batons to beat a group of firefighters who were protecting crowds in Girona.
Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionThis woman suffered a head injury in Barcelona
The national police and Guardia Civil - a military force charged with police duties - were sent into Catalonia in large numbers to prevent the vote.
The Catalan police - the Mossos d'Esquadra - have been placed under Madrid's control, however witnesses said they showed little inclination to use force on protesters.
Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau, who voted blank on Sunday, condemned police actions against the region's "defenceless" population, but Spain's Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria said police had "acted with professionalism and in a proportionate way".
Image copyrightBORIS LLONA VIA TWITTER
Image captionThe Mossos d'Esquadra are held in high esteem by Catalans
Large crowds of independence supporters gathered in the centre of the regional capital Barcelona on Sunday evening, waving flags and singing the Catalan anthem. Anti-independence protesters have also held rallies in Barcelona and other Spanish cities.
How much voting took place?
Catalan authorities said 319 of about 2,300 polling stations across the region had been closed by police while the Spanish government said 92 stations had been sealed off.
Since Friday, thousands of people have occupied schools and other buildings designated as polling stations in order to keep them open.
Media captionVoters attempt to stop police seizing ballots. Some shouted: "We will vote! We are peaceful people"
Many of those inside were parents and their children, who remained in the buildings after the end of lessons on Friday and bedded down in sleeping bags on gym mats.
The anti-independence Societat Civil said there were voting irregularities, including the same people voting twice.
Catalonia, a wealthy region of 7.5 million people in north-eastern Spain, has its own language and culture.
It also has a high degree of autonomy, but is not recognised as a separate nation under the Spanish constitution.
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Media captionCatalans sing their anthem 'Els Segadors', or 'The Reapers'
Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.
He said the door was open to a unilateral declaration of independence after Catalan officials said voters had backed secession with a 42.3% turnout.
Spain's government has warned it could suspend Catalan autonomy.
The constitutional court banned the vote and almost 900 people were hurt as police tried to stop it going ahead.
Officers from the national police and paramilitary Civil Guard seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Catalans had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote.
More than 2.2 million people were reported to have voted, according to Catalan authorities, out of 5.3 million registered voters. Just under 90% of those who voted backed independence, they said.
A Catalan spokesman said more than 750,000 votes could not be counted because polling stations were closed and urns were confiscated.
What have Catalan and Spanish leaders said?
"With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form of a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address.
Image captionCatalan leader Carles Puigdemont was flanked by members of his government as he made his statement
"My government in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."
The Spanish prime minister spoke of a "mockery" of democracy.
"At this hour I can tell you in the strongest terms what you already know and what we have seen throughout this day. There has not been a referendum on self-determination in Catalonia," Mr Rajoy said.
Spain's justice minister warned that any declaration of independence could lead to article 155 of the country's constitution being invoked which allows the national government to intervene in the running of an autonomous region.
"We are not here to divide Spaniards... but if someone tries to declare independence on behalf of a part of Spain's territory, that cannot be done because it is beyond their powers," said Rafael Catalá.
More than 40 trade unions and Catalan associations called a region-wide strike on Tuesday due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms".
How bad was the violence?
TV images showed Spanish police kicking would-be voters and pulling women out of polling stations by their hair.
Catalan medical officials said 844 people had been hurt in clashes, including 33 police. The majority had minor injuries or had suffered from anxiety attacks.
- How Barcelona and Madrid viewed the vote
- The most powerful images of Catalan clashes
- The reasons for the referendum
The BBC's Tom Burridge in Barcelona witnessed police being chased away from one polling booth after they had raided it.
TV footage showed riot police using batons to beat a group of firefighters who were protecting crowds in Girona.
Image captionThis woman suffered a head injury in Barcelona
The national police and Guardia Civil - a military force charged with police duties - were sent into Catalonia in large numbers to prevent the vote.
The Catalan police - the Mossos d'Esquadra - have been placed under Madrid's control, however witnesses said they showed little inclination to use force on protesters.
Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau, who voted blank on Sunday, condemned police actions against the region's "defenceless" population, but Spain's Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria said police had "acted with professionalism and in a proportionate way".
Image captionThe Mossos d'Esquadra are held in high esteem by Catalans
Large crowds of independence supporters gathered in the centre of the regional capital Barcelona on Sunday evening, waving flags and singing the Catalan anthem. Anti-independence protesters have also held rallies in Barcelona and other Spanish cities.
How much voting took place?
Catalan authorities said 319 of about 2,300 polling stations across the region had been closed by police while the Spanish government said 92 stations had been sealed off.
Since Friday, thousands of people have occupied schools and other buildings designated as polling stations in order to keep them open.
Media captionVoters attempt to stop police seizing ballots. Some shouted: "We will vote! We are peaceful people"
Many of those inside were parents and their children, who remained in the buildings after the end of lessons on Friday and bedded down in sleeping bags on gym mats.
The anti-independence Societat Civil said there were voting irregularities, including the same people voting twice.
Catalonia, a wealthy region of 7.5 million people in north-eastern Spain, has its own language and culture.
It also has a high degree of autonomy, but is not recognised as a separate nation under the Spanish constitution.
Lordilord
❤Somaliland❤
Warya, let this be a lesson to you, Somaliland already seceded the hell are you talking about. Look what Spain is doing to Catalonia. They are enforcing their demands on them to not go through with the referendum and also they seized a lot of money from the Catalonia government.The right of self-determination is confronted with sovereignty and as always sovereignty wins.
Let this be a lesson to somaliland, right of self-determination is aspirational at best
Both Catalonia and Kurdistan have a much bigger economy than Somaliland the difference with Somaliland is that there is no Spain, Iran, Irak and Turkey counterpart to stop Somaliland. We are already independent with the only issue being recognition.
You think Somalia can hold down Somaliland?? Maybe a long time ago but now come on bruuuuuv. Who are we fooling
Merchant of Mogadishu
From Pella to Pattala, then back to Babylon
Viva España!
Whilst I don't agree with the police brutality, I applaud the Spanish government and people for taking a stand against illegal Catalan independence.
Somalia should take notes and implement an article in the Constitution that makes leaving the union illegal and take away autonomous rights when a state tries to.
Whilst I don't agree with the police brutality, I applaud the Spanish government and people for taking a stand against illegal Catalan independence.
Somalia should take notes and implement an article in the Constitution that makes leaving the union illegal and take away autonomous rights when a state tries to.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Warya, let this be a lesson to you, Somaliland already seceded the hell are you talking about. Look what Spain is doing to Catalonia. They are enforcing their demands on them to not go through with the referendum and also they seized a lot of money from the Catalonia government.
Both Catalonia and Kurdistan have a much bigger economy than Somaliland the difference with Somaliland is that there is no Spain, Iran, Irak and Turkey counterpart to stop Somaliland. We are already independent with the only issue being recognition.
You think Somalia can hold down Somaliland?? Maybe a long time ago but now come on bruuuuuv. Who are we fooling
Listen here, idoit,
De-facto independence is null and void in international law and with the precedent since colonial era against independence, you're only as free as Somalia allows you too. Come meet us at the International Court of Justice and let's see who has the law on their side, cause it ain't you or your phantom country
Lordilord
❤Somaliland❤
LOL have you not asked yourself why Somalia has not brought Somaliland to "justice" in any international court??? You don't seem to understand what de facto is? Null and void??Listen here, idoit,
De-facto independence is null and void in international law and with the precedent since colonial era against independence, you're only as free as Somalia allows you too. Come meet us at the International Court of Justice and let's see who has the law on their side, cause it ain't you or your phantom country
Somaliland's legal claim on their colonial borders given to them by England > Somalia's claim on Somaliland by an illegal union.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
It cannot be illegal if recognized under international norms, it must cases international law is subject to some subjectivity regarding the the Montevideo conventions criteria for statehood.
And null and void means it does not hold legal merit on its own and de-fact means it governs as if it was a country and not a automous region the likes as Puntland.
The reality however is besides international norms and law that real geopolitics is the greatest obstacle to statehood and most prominient the AU opinion of Somaliland as instrument of further balkanization of Somalia.
Face the music dear, you won't be free until Somalia signs off on it.
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