Origins of the Semites

[Grant]

http://biblicaltheology.com/Research/LipovskyI01.pdf

"The original homeland of all ancient Semitic peoples, including Hebrews, was not
northern Arabia, as is currently believed, but northwestern Mesopotamia. Around 6,000-
4,000 years B.C., an ecological catastrophe in the Black Sea area forced the Indo-
European tribes to migrate outward in all directions. On their way to the south and the
south-east, the Indo-Arians displaced and partially mingled with the Hurrians of Eastern
Anatolia. In turn, arianized Hurrians first displaced the Eastern Semites (Akkadians) from
the upper courses of Tigris, and then, at the end of the 3rdmillennium B.C., occupied the
land of Western Semites (Amorites) in the upper courses of Euphrates. The referencing
by the Bible of Harran as the original birthplace of Abraham is the indirect evidence of
these ethnic changes. The last wave of Western Semites (Arameans) in 12-11 centuries
B.C. was also caused by the movements of Hurrians and Indo-Europeans in northwestern
Mesopotamia."

Ancient Egyptian had a Cushitic base but morphed into a Semitic language. The Harla and Yibir were apparently Semitic. Those folks got around.

This northern Hebrew origin may explain part of why modern European Jews are relatively light-skinned. Joseph, son of Jacob, is even said to have had red hair.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Semites were black . They come from a Togolese tribe called Sem aight .
We wuz sem aight.

 

[Prince Abubu]

http://biblicaltheology.com/Research/LipovskyI01.pdf

"The original homeland of all ancient Semitic peoples, including Hebrews, was not
northern Arabia, as is currently believed, but northwestern Mesopotamia. Around 6,000-
4,000 years B.C., an ecological catastrophe in the Black Sea area forced the Indo-
European tribes to migrate outward in all directions. On their way to the south and the
south-east, the Indo-Arians displaced and partially mingled with the Hurrians of Eastern
Anatolia. In turn, arianized Hurrians first displaced the Eastern Semites (Akkadians) from
the upper courses of Tigris, and then, at the end of the 3rdmillennium B.C., occupied the
land of Western Semites (Amorites) in the upper courses of Euphrates. The referencing
by the Bible of Harran as the original birthplace of Abraham is the indirect evidence of
these ethnic changes. The last wave of Western Semites (Arameans) in 12-11 centuries
B.C. was also caused by the movements of Hurrians and Indo-Europeans in northwestern
Mesopotamia."

Ancient Egyptian had a Cushitic base but morphed into a Semitic language. The Harla and Yibir were apparently Semitic. Those folks got around.

This northern Hebrew origin may explain part of why modern European Jews are relatively light-skinned. Joseph, son of Jacob, is even said to have had red hair.

I don't think so. Ancient Egyptian was more related to Berber and Semitic than Cushitic which is probably the most isolated Afro-Asiatic language.

This is consistent with their genetic ancestry as well. Semites, Berbers and Egyptians form a Mediterranean/Eurasian continuum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ptians-europeans-related-claims-a7763866.html

 

[Grant]

I don't think so. Ancient Egyptian was more related to Berber and Semitic than Cushitic which is probably the most isolated Afro-Asiatic language.

This is consistent with their genetic ancestry as well. Semites, Berbers and Egyptians form a Mediterranean/Eurasian continuum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ptians-europeans-related-claims-a7763866.html

The Cushites and Berbers are both B1b1b. This author feels the Semitic connection to ancient Egyptian has been overblown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language

"The Egyptian language belongs to the Afroasiatic language family.[5] Among the typological features of Egyptian that are typically Afroasiatic are its fusional morphology, nonconcatenative morphology, a series of emphatic consonants, a three-vowel system /a i u/, nominal feminine suffix *-at, nominal m-, adjectival *-ī and characteristic personal verbal affixes.[5] Of the other Afroasiatic branches, Egyptian shows its greatest affinities with Semitic and, to a lesser extent, Cushitic.[6]

In Egyptian, the Proto-Afroasiatic voiced consonants */d z ð/ developed into pharyngeal ⟨ꜥ⟩ /ʕ/: ꜥr.t 'portal', Semitic dalt 'door'.[7] Afroasiatic */l/ merged with Egyptian ⟨n⟩, ⟨r⟩, ⟨ꜣ⟩, and ⟨j⟩ in the dialect on which the written language was based, but it was preserved in other Egyptian varieties.[7] Original */k g ḳ/ palatalise to ⟨ṯ j ḏ⟩ in some environments and are preserved as ⟨k g q⟩ in others.[7]

Egyptian has many biradical and perhaps monoradical roots, in contrast to the Semitic preference for triradical roots.[8] Egyptian is probably more conservative, and Semitic likely underwent later regularizations converting roots into the triradical pattern.[8]

"Although Egyptian is the oldest Afroasiatic language documented in written form, its morphological repertoire is very different from that of the rest of the Afroasiatic, in general, and Semitic, in particular.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language#cite_note-l51-9'][9] There are multiple possibilities: Egyptian had already undergone radical changes from Proto-Afroasiatic before it was recorded, the Afroasiatic family has so far been studied with an excessively Semito-centric approach, or Afroasiatic is a typological, not a genetic group of languages.[9] (The general consensus is that Afroasiatic is indeed a genetic group and that Egyptian really diverged greatly in its prerecorded history, but there is almost certainly a Semitic bias in Afroasiatic reconstruction.[citation needed])"[/URL]

Given the close linkage of the Cushitic and ancient Egyptian economies and cultures, I am guessing they just have yet to discover all the similarities. The archaeology of the Sudan, and understanding of it's scripts and history, is still in it's infancy. Rule went back and forth over a long period.

 

[Apollo]

This northern Hebrew origin may explain part of why modern European Jews are relatively light-skinned. Joseph, son of Jacob, is even said to have had red hair.

The appearance of Ashkenazi Jews has nothing to do with how the original Jews looked like. Ashkenazi Jews have 50% European ancestry, often Slavic, and the other 50% being Levantine. On global/regional genetic PCA analyses they overlap with South Italians in terms of the EU-MENA genetic dimension, but are composed of different elements.

Also, since the mid-20th century American Ashkenazi Jews have started to intermarry more and more often with White Goys. So they get less 'Jewish'. On the flip side, the Ashkenazis of Israel are becoming more Middle Eastern through contacts with the Mizrahi.

 

[Prince Abubu]

The Cushites and Berbers are both B1b1b. This author feels the Semitic connection to ancient Egyptian has been overblown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language

"The Egyptian language belongs to the Afroasiatic language family.[5] Among the typological features of Egyptian that are typically Afroasiatic are its fusional morphology, nonconcatenative morphology, a series of emphatic consonants, a three-vowel system /a i u/, nominal feminine suffix *-at, nominal m-, adjectival *-ī and characteristic personal verbal affixes.[5] Of the other Afroasiatic branches, Egyptian shows its greatest affinities with Semitic and, to a lesser extent, Cushitic.[6]

In Egyptian, the Proto-Afroasiatic voiced consonants */d z ð/ developed into pharyngeal ⟨ꜥ⟩ /ʕ/: ꜥr.t 'portal', Semitic dalt 'door'.[7] Afroasiatic */l/ merged with Egyptian ⟨n⟩, ⟨r⟩, ⟨ꜣ⟩, and ⟨j⟩ in the dialect on which the written language was based, but it was preserved in other Egyptian varieties.[7] Original */k g ḳ/ palatalise to ⟨ṯ j ḏ⟩ in some environments and are preserved as ⟨k g q⟩ in others.[7]

Egyptian has many biradical and perhaps monoradical roots, in contrast to the Semitic preference for triradical roots.[8] Egyptian is probably more conservative, and Semitic likely underwent later regularizations converting roots into the triradical pattern.[8]

"Although Egyptian is the oldest Afroasiatic language documented in written form, its morphological repertoire is very different from that of the rest of the Afroasiatic, in general, and Semitic, in particular.[9] There are multiple possibilities: Egyptian had already undergone radical changes from Proto-Afroasiatic before it was recorded, the Afroasiatic family has so far been studied with an excessively Semito-centric approach, or Afroasiatic is a typological, not a genetic group of languages.[9] (The general consensus is that Afroasiatic is indeed a genetic group and that Egyptian really diverged greatly in its prerecorded history, but there is almost certainly a Semitic bias in Afroasiatic reconstruction.[citation needed])"

Given the close linkage of the Cushitic and ancient Egyptian economies and cultures, I am guessing they just have yet to discover all the similarities. The archaeology of the Sudan, and understanding of it's scripts and history, is still in it's infancy. Rule went back and forth over a long period.

Tbh, what you've posted just seems to suggest that Egyptian is pretty standalone..Afro-Asiatic studies needs more research as it is one of the most divergent families. Outside of really primitive and basic concepts such as grammatical tense and phonology, Cushitic and other Afro-Asiatic languages have very little indication of having much to do with eachother.

 

[Apollo]

Tbh, what you've posted just seems to suggest that Egyptian is pretty standalone..Afro-Asiatic studies needs more research as it is one of the most divergent families. Outside of really primitive and basic concepts such as grammatical tense and phonology, Cushitic and other Afro-Asiatic languages have very little indication of having much to do with eachother.

It seems like you were expecting close similarities. That is not the point of language families. The point is that they are ancestrally related and linked through a sequences of divergence, not high mutual intelligibility.

 

[Grant]

The appearance of Ashkenazi Jews has nothing to do with how the original Jews looked like. Ashkenazi Jews have 50% European ancestry, often Slavic, and the other 50% being Levantine. On global/regional genetic PCA analyses they overlap with South Italians in terms of the EU-MENA genetic dimension, but are composed of different elements.

Also, since the mid-20th century American Ashkenazi Jews have started to intermarry more and more often with White Goys. So they get less 'Jewish'. On the flip side, the Ashkenazis of Israel are becoming more Middle Eastern through contacts with the Mizrahi.

http://listverse.com/2015/03/27/10-fascinating-jewish-communities-that-time-forgot/

The various Jewish communities around the world seem to take on the appearance of the local population, even though the male lines are very related and similar in all the groups. The Cohen marker is definite. Check out these photos and histories of 10 widely dispersed groups.

 

[Apollo]

http://listverse.com/2015/03/27/10-fascinating-jewish-communities-that-time-forgot/

The various Jewish communities around the world seem to take on the appearance of the local population, even though the male lines are very related and similar in all the groups. The Cohen marker is definite. Check out these photos and histories of 10 widely dispersed groups.

It is fairly easy to tell most Ashkenazi Jews from native Western Europeans. There is an overlap (think Venn diagram) but usually you can tell.

Given the claim Jews made on being 'God's chosen people' it is common for non-Jews to claim to be Jewish. For the Lemba there is strong paternal lineal evidence. For Ethiopian Jews the evidence is weak. The Yibir claim is also highly dubious.

 

[Menelik III]

It is fairly easy to tell most Ashkenazi Jews from native Western Europeans. There is an overlap (think Venn diagram) but usually you can tell.

Given the claim Jews made on being 'God's chosen people' it is common for non-Jews to claim to be Jewish. For the Lemba there is strong paternal lineal evidence. For Ethiopian Jews the evidence is weak. The Yibir claim is also highly dubious.

Probably biased but the bete israel sounds the most believable out of the Africa Jews. As they maintained the Torah but not new Jewish law, practiced sabbath and even went on to expand Judaism with their own new culture/holidays and tradition. They could also be a remnant of the Jewish population of Ethiopia who failed to convert to Christianity. Since before Christianity Judaism was practiced in parts of Ethiopia.

 

[Prince Abubu]

Lol no. The Beta Israel/falashas have been shown to show genetic identity to Agews. They also have predominantly non-J Y DNA haplogroups e.g. E1b1b, A etc. They don't have anymore arabian ancestry than other non-habesha Ethiopians. No way they are Jews.

They are most likely the Agew version of Somalis, in that they have adopted a religion (Islam for Somalis, Judaism for Agews) and have claimed Semitic ancestry due to the prestige of the religion.

 

[Grant]

Lol no. The Beta Israel/falashas have been shown to show genetic identity to Agews. They also have predominantly non-J Y DNA haplogroups e.g. E1b1b, A etc. They don't have anymore arabian ancestry than other non-habesha Ethiopians. No way they are Jews.

They are most likely the Agew version of Somalis, in that they have adopted a religion (Islam for Somalis, Judaism for Agews) and have claimed Semitic ancestry due to the prestige of the religion.

The Beta Israel descend from the Jews of Axum. They are the people of Eldad the Danite, from the land beyond the river of Kush, mentioned in the Bible.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...-jewish-roots-of-beta-israel-ethiopian-jewry/

"As mentioned, genetic evidence—as best introduced by Entine in Abraham’s Children (2007)— has already demonstrated that the group maintains an ancient descent that traces all the way back to the mid-first millennium CE (Entine, 2013; Saey, 2010; Ostrer, 2012). As someone who is of East African descent, I argue that the African ethnicity of the Beta Israel appears to be more complex than just Ethiopian.

The observed phenotypes of the Beta Israel-Ethiopian Jews today strongly reflect the features of the riverine Northern Sudanese populations. To a lesser proportion, they reflect the phenotypes commonly found among the mainstream Habash-Abyssinian populations of what is today northern Ethiopia. Contrary to the argument that propose the Beta Israel to have originated from Agaw converts (Ezer, 2003, p. 27; Ullendorff, 1968), only a minority of the population today displays distinguishable Agaw features—i.e. large and deep-set eyes, notably thin eye-brows, and the usual dark complexion but with a unique smooth-yellowish tone. This may indicate that intermarriage with the Agaw was limited.

A small minority displays clear Somali features with longer faces and darker than average complexion. A much smaller minority of the group shows clear West/Central African features attributed to the Barya populations who were noted in the fourth century CE inscription of Ezana (Zarroug, 1991, p. 8). The Barya were historically subjugated by the Abyssinians and forced into farm work as late as the mid-twentieth century.

Hence, phenotypes indicate a fair degree of African diversity with the Beta Israel. That being said, understanding the potential contributions of Northern Sudan is significantly important to better understand the development of the Beta Israel, particularly as it pertains to their historical and ethnic roots."

It may, perhaps, be useful here to remember that Moses' wife, Zipporah, was dark and not Jewish.

 

[Apollo]

Grant is prone to falling for pseudoscience. I am really surprised given your age.

 

[Grant]

Grant is prone to falling for pseudoscience. I am really surprised given your age.

My age gives me a certain amount of perspective. Perhaps you should check out Jon Entines' book, Abraham's Children, or this video:


The science is in, and it is not pseudo. Jewish IQ, diseases and common DNA define a people with similar genetics spread all over the world. Believe me, Jews themselves do not let these issues slide.

'

 

[Menelik III]

The Beta Israel descend from the Jews of Axum. They are the people of Eldad the Danite, from the land beyond the river of Kush, mentioned in the Bible.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...-jewish-roots-of-beta-israel-ethiopian-jewry/

"As mentioned, genetic evidence—as best introduced by Entine in Abraham’s Children (2007)— has already demonstrated that the group maintains an ancient descent that traces all the way back to the mid-first millennium CE (Entine, 2013; Saey, 2010; Ostrer, 2012). As someone who is of East African descent, I argue that the African ethnicity of the Beta Israel appears to be more complex than just Ethiopian.

The observed phenotypes of the Beta Israel-Ethiopian Jews today strongly reflect the features of the riverine Northern Sudanese populations. To a lesser proportion, they reflect the phenotypes commonly found among the mainstream Habash-Abyssinian populations of what is today northern Ethiopia. Contrary to the argument that propose the Beta Israel to have originated from Agaw converts (Ezer, 2003, p. 27; Ullendorff, 1968), only a minority of the population today displays distinguishable Agaw features—i.e. large and deep-set eyes, notably thin eye-brows, and the usual dark complexion but with a unique smooth-yellowish tone. This may indicate that intermarriage with the Agaw was limited.

A small minority displays clear Somali features with longer faces and darker than average complexion. A much smaller minority of the group shows clear West/Central African features attributed to the Barya populations who were noted in the fourth century CE inscription of Ezana (Zarroug, 1991, p. 8). The Barya were historically subjugated by the Abyssinians and forced into farm work as late as the mid-twentieth century.

Hence, phenotypes indicate a fair degree of African diversity with the Beta Israel. That being said, understanding the potential contributions of Northern Sudan is significantly important to better understand the development of the Beta Israel, particularly as it pertains to their historical and ethnic roots."

It may, perhaps, be useful here to remember that Moses' wife, Zipporah, was dark and not Jewish.

I noticed you like to connect HOA peoples to people from the Niger-Congo. We have no connection and we will not accept that blasphemy.

 

[Grant]

I noticed you like to connect HOA peoples to people from the Niger-Congo. We have no connection and we will not accept that blasphemy.

What are you on about? Axum is in northern Ethiopia. Kush is in the Sudan. The Lemba are mixed with Bantu, but that is about the extent of that connection. The other lost/found Jewish populations also mixed with local populations at about the same percentages. The Buba clan of the Lemba carries 53% Cohen markers, which is definitive. This does not indicate a Bantu or Niger-Congo presence in the Horn. The negroid tribes of the Horn, such as the Ari, came from the Sahara.

 

[Menelik III]

What are you on about? Axum is in northern Ethiopia. Kush is in the Sudan. The Lemba are mixed with Bantu, but that is about the extent of that connection. The other lost/found Jewish populations also mixed with local populations at about the same percentages. The Buba clan of the Lemba carries 53% Cohen markers, which is definitive. This does not indicate a Bantu or Niger-Congo presence in the Horn. The negroid tribes of the Horn, such as the Ari, came from the Sahara.

You wrote that the bete Israel descend from Niger-Congo people in Sudan. Which is obviously false. What's your take on the Ethiopic languages and civilization i.e. Aksum, dmt, pnt?

 

[Grant]

You wrote that the bete Israel descend from Niger-Congo people in Sudan. Which is obviously false. What's your take on the Ethiopic languages and civilization i.e. Aksum, dmt, pnt?

Uhhhh...., No. Please read back through the thread. What I said was "The Beta Israel descend from the Jews of Axum. They are the people of Eldad the Danite, from the land beyond the river of Kush, mentioned in the Bible."

The Ethiopic languages are Semitic, and divide the Cushitic languages in the Sudan from those further east and south in the Horn. The area has clearly been a route of migration between Africa and Asia for millennia.

 

[Prince Abubu]

What are you on about? Axum is in northern Ethiopia. Kush is in the Sudan. The Lemba are mixed with Bantu, but that is about the extent of that connection. The other lost/found Jewish populations also mixed with local populations at about the same percentages. The Buba clan of the Lemba carries 53% Cohen markers, which is definitive. This does not indicate a Bantu or Niger-Congo presence in the Horn. The negroid tribes of the Horn, such as the Ari, came from the Sahara.

Grant, as far as I'm aware, the lemba people have T-M70. Why would that be a sign of Cohenim ancestry? Aren't the Cohenim all J1 carriers?

 

[Grant]

Grant, as far as I'm aware, the lemba people have T-M70. Why would that be a sign of Cohenim ancestry? Aren't the Cohenim all J1 carriers?

I wasn't aware they had that and I have no idea what it means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Most males who now belong to Haplogroup T-M184 are members of T-M70 (T1a) – a primary branch of T-M206. Now most commonly found in North Africa and the Middle East, T-M70 nevertheless appears to have long been present in Europe and to have arrived there with the first farmers.[2] This is supported by the discovery of several members of T1a1 (CTS880) at a 7,000 year old settlement in Karsdorf, Germany.[13][14] Autosomal analysis of these remains suggest that some were closely related to modern Southwest Asian populations.[13]

Keep in mind that only a small minority of modern Jews are J1. Albert Einstein was B1b1b. Here's a copy of the Cohen family tree study. It has haplotypes J, E. L and R. (The Ashkenazim have the highest level of J1, at 14%)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx?section=yresults

The article this chart is from is critical of the Lemba studies, but still notes four J subclades at frequencies greater than 9%.

http://www.samj.org.za/index.php/samj/article/view/7297/5714

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

"Hammer et al. (2009) identified Cohanim from diverse backgrounds, having in all 21 differing Y-chromosome haplogroups: E-M78, E-M123, G-M285, G-P15, G-M377, H-M69, I-M253, J-P58, J-M172*, J-M410*, J-M67, J-M68, J-M318, J-M12, L-M20, Q-M378, R-M17, R-P25*, R-M269, R-M124 AND T-M70.[18]"