Russia-Ukraine War

[GemState]

While you’re correct in what you’ve written, you’re missing a lot of history.

Ukraine was practically a Russian colony for decades, treated as second class citizens during the USSR. When they got independence, Russia dragged its heels until Ukraine gave up its weapons.

Russia always calls Ukraine a “brotherly nation” but routinely fucks it over.

Putin and his predecessors have always misjudged the hatred the Eastern European public have for them.

If they wanted to prevent Ukraine from getting closer to the West, don’t offer money but rather offer to fix the past.

The USSR fostered Ukrainian nationalism and suppressed Russians, what are you on about?

Lenin saw the connection between socialism and national struggle, concluding that the way to bring minorities along with the revolution was to grow their national identity. Under the Ukrainian Bolshevik Party and its state apparatus, the country’s cities became majority Ukrainian, so ‘between 1923 and 1926 the proportion of Kiev’s population which was Ukrainian increased from 27 per cent to 42 per cent’. There was also a flourishing of Ukrainian culture, and ‘the Ukrainian language, which the tsarist rulers had dismissed as a farmyard dialect, was now recognised as an essential tool for effective propaganda in the countryside and the recruitment of a native elite.’

The Bolsheviks also saw Russian linguistic domination as a product of capitalism, and that under a neutral state it would come to overwhelm others. Grigory Zinoviev, Stalin’s close ally who helped Stalin’s rise to power (murdered by Stalin, 1936) had said in 1923: ‘We should first of all reject the “theory” of neutralism. We cannot adopt the point of view of neutralism… we should help [the non-Russians] create their own schools, should help them create their own administration in their native language.’

More Ukrainian children learned to read their native language in the 1920s than in the whole of the nineteenth century, The Soviet state financed the mass production of books, journals, newspapers, movies, operas, museums, folk music ensembles, and other cultural output in the non-Russian languages.

The Bolsheviks believed that people misinterpreted class conflict as national conflict, but Lenin also believed there were fundamental differences between the Bad Nationalism of Russians and the Good Nationalism of oppressed people. ‘The nationalism of the oppressed, Lenin maintained, had a “democratic content” that must be supported, whereas the nationalism of the oppressor had no redeeming value’.

Lenin argued that they should ‘Fight against all nationalism’ but ‘first of all, against Great Russian nationalism’. He coined the term rusotiapstvo — mindless Russian chauvinism — and in December 1922 declared that one must ‘distinguish between the nationalism of oppressor nations and the nationalism of oppressed nations, the nationalism of large nations and the nationalism of small nations… In relation to the second nationalism, in almost all historical practice, we nationals of the large nations are guilty, because of an infinite amount of violence’ committed. This led to the ‘greatest-danger principle’ that chauvinism was greater danger than small nationalism

 

[GemState]

Due to Red Scare, to this day many think the USSR was akin to Nazi Germany,

The Soviet Union was the world’s first Affirmative Action Empire. Russia’s revolutionary government was the first of the old European multiethnic states to confront the rising tide of nationalism and respond by systematically promoting the national consciousness of its ethnic minorities and establishing for them many of the characteristic institutional forms of the nation-state. This was done at the expense of the majority.

In creating republics within the union, they hoped to preserve the territorial integrity of the old Russian empire in autonomous states where new national elites were trained and promoted to leadership positions in the government, schools, and industrial enterprises of these newly formed territories. In each territory, the national language was declared the official language of government. In dozens of cases, this necessitated the creation of a written language where one did not yet exist.

 

[Periplus]

The USSR fostered Ukrainian nationalism and suppressed Russians, what are you on about?

Lenin saw the connection between socialism and national struggle, concluding that the way to bring minorities along with the revolution was to grow their national identity. Under the Ukrainian Bolshevik Party and its state apparatus, the country’s cities became majority Ukrainian, so ‘between 1923 and 1926 the proportion of Kiev’s population which was Ukrainian increased from 27 per cent to 42 per cent’. There was also a flourishing of Ukrainian culture, and ‘the Ukrainian language, which the tsarist rulers had dismissed as a farmyard dialect, was now recognised as an essential tool for effective propaganda in the countryside and the recruitment of a native elite.’

The Bolsheviks also saw Russian linguistic domination as a product of capitalism, and that under a neutral state it would come to overwhelm others. Grigory Zinoviev, Stalin’s close ally who helped Stalin’s rise to power (murdered by Stalin, 1936) had said in 1923: ‘We should first of all reject the “theory” of neutralism. We cannot adopt the point of view of neutralism… we should help [the non-Russians] create their own schools, should help them create their own administration in their native language.’

More Ukrainian children learned to read their native language in the 1920s than in the whole of the nineteenth century, The Soviet state financed the mass production of books, journals, newspapers, movies, operas, museums, folk music ensembles, and other cultural output in the non-Russian languages.

The Bolsheviks believed that people misinterpreted class conflict as national conflict, but Lenin also believed there were fundamental differences between the Bad Nationalism of Russians and the Good Nationalism of oppressed people. ‘The nationalism of the oppressed, Lenin maintained, had a “democratic content” that must be supported, whereas the nationalism of the oppressor had no redeeming value’.

Lenin argued that they should ‘Fight against all nationalism’ but ‘first of all, against Great Russian nationalism’. He coined the term rusotiapstvo — mindless Russian chauvinism — and in December 1922 declared that one must ‘distinguish between the nationalism of oppressor nations and the nationalism of oppressed nations, the nationalism of large nations and the nationalism of small nations… In relation to the second nationalism, in almost all historical practice, we nationals of the large nations are guilty, because of an infinite amount of violence’ committed. This led to the ‘greatest-danger principle’ that chauvinism was greater danger than small nationalism

Everything you listed occurred under Lenin, one century ago.

The reality in Ukraine under Stalin was vastly different.

 

[Juke]

The USSR fostered Ukrainian nationalism and suppressed Russians, what are you on about?

Lenin saw the connection between socialism and national struggle, concluding that the way to bring minorities along with the revolution was to grow their national identity. Under the Ukrainian Bolshevik Party and its state apparatus, the country’s cities became majority Ukrainian, so ‘between 1923 and 1926 the proportion of Kiev’s population which was Ukrainian increased from 27 per cent to 42 per cent’. There was also a flourishing of Ukrainian culture, and ‘the Ukrainian language, which the tsarist rulers had dismissed as a farmyard dialect, was now recognised as an essential tool for effective propaganda in the countryside and the recruitment of a native elite.’

The Bolsheviks also saw Russian linguistic domination as a product of capitalism, and that under a neutral state it would come to overwhelm others. Grigory Zinoviev, Stalin’s close ally who helped Stalin’s rise to power (murdered by Stalin, 1936) had said in 1923: ‘We should first of all reject the “theory” of neutralism. We cannot adopt the point of view of neutralism… we should help [the non-Russians] create their own schools, should help them create their own administration in their native language.’

More Ukrainian children learned to read their native language in the 1920s than in the whole of the nineteenth century, The Soviet state financed the mass production of books, journals, newspapers, movies, operas, museums, folk music ensembles, and other cultural output in the non-Russian languages.

The Bolsheviks believed that people misinterpreted class conflict as national conflict, but Lenin also believed there were fundamental differences between the Bad Nationalism of Russians and the Good Nationalism of oppressed people. ‘The nationalism of the oppressed, Lenin maintained, had a “democratic content” that must be supported, whereas the nationalism of the oppressor had no redeeming value’.

Lenin argued that they should ‘Fight against all nationalism’ but ‘first of all, against Great Russian nationalism’. He coined the term rusotiapstvo — mindless Russian chauvinism — and in December 1922 declared that one must ‘distinguish between the nationalism of oppressor nations and the nationalism of oppressed nations, the nationalism of large nations and the nationalism of small nations… In relation to the second nationalism, in almost all historical practice, we nationals of the large nations are guilty, because of an infinite amount of violence’ committed. This led to the ‘greatest-danger principle’ that chauvinism was greater danger than small nationalism

Due to Red Scare, to this day many think the USSR was akin to Nazi Germany,

The Soviet Union was the world’s first Affirmative Action Empire. Russia’s revolutionary government was the first of the old European multiethnic states to confront the rising tide of nationalism and respond by systematically promoting the national consciousness of its ethnic minorities and establishing for them many of the characteristic institutional forms of the nation-state. This was done at the expense of the majority.

In creating republics within the union, they hoped to preserve the territorial integrity of the old Russian empire in autonomous states where new national elites were trained and promoted to leadership positions in the government, schools, and industrial enterprises of these newly formed territories. In each territory, the national language was declared the official language of government. In dozens of cases, this necessitated the creation of a written language where one did not yet exist.

Under the USSR ethnic non-Russian regions (including western Ukraine) were subsidized at the expense of predominantly Russian regions

While Nazi Germany was conducting studies to show the superiority of master Aryan race over other races, the USSR was conducting studies in the baikal region to show every Soviet race is as productive as the other.

 

[GemState]

Everything you listed occurred under Lenin, one century ago.

The reality in Ukraine under Stalin was vastly different.

You realize The Soviet Union had ruled between 1922 and 1991 and Ukrainian leaders led the country for more than half of that time? In 1954, the Crimean Region of the RSFSR was given to the Ukrainian SSR, in gross violation of legal norms that were in force at the time angering the Russian establishment.

This notion Ukrainians were 2nd-class citizens is laughable.

 

[Periplus]

@GemState

You are missing a large portion of history, arguably the most important when discussing the USSR, which is the Stalinist period. I am not sure if it is due to bias or due to ignorance but let me set the record straight.

Yes, Lenin favoured Ukrainian nationalism, he also wanted the USSR to be capitalist and wanted Islam to have a revival in Russia.

However, Stalin was extremely different.

Under his rule, Ukraine's former SSR leader was assassinated, Ukrainian nationalism was branded as "Bourgeois" and eliminated, as well as 4 million Ukrainians dying from famine that is now considered genocide by numerous nations

And this was all within his first decade of rule.

 

[Nilotic]

Everything you listed occurred under Lenin, one century ago.

The reality in Ukraine under Stalin was vastly different.

Stalin (Georgian) wasn't a Russian chauvinist but he did dislike the Ukrainians and subjected them to untold suffering.

How are the actions of a brutal Georgian dictator an indictment on Russia as a Nation? Russian Nationalism was suppressed during the Soviet period.

 

[Periplus]

You realize The Soviet Union had ruled between 1922 and 1991 and Ukrainian leaders led the country for more than half of that time? In 1954, the Crimean Region of the RSFSR was given to the Ukrainian SSR, in gross violation of legal norms that were in force at the time angering the Russian establishment.

This notion Ukrainians were 2nd-class citizens is laughable.

Stalin (Georgian) wasn't a Russian chauvinist but he did dislike the Ukrainians and subjected them to untold suffering.

How are the actions of a brutal Georgian dictator an indictment on Russia as a Nation? Russian Nationalism was suppressed during the Soviet period.

Stalin himself was infamous for suppressing Georgian nationalism when he was Georgian himself. The idea of nationalism is anathema to communistic ideals, especially those during the Stalinist era.

What both of you misunderstand about Soviet Russia is that individuals like Stalin or the Ukrainian SSR leaders did not identify with their homelands. They saw themselves as Soviets that were incorporating an ignorant population into the greater good that is communism.

In World War 2, the Soviet nationalism became Russian nationalism as they faced Hitler's invasion. The anthem was changed to include references about "Greater Russia".

In 1954, the Crimean Region of the RSFSR was given to the Ukrainian SSR, in gross violation of legal norms that were in force at the time angering the Russian establishment.

What you also fail to understand about Crimea is that it is indigenous to a Muslim community, the Crimean Tatars, not Russians.

What happened to them?

Joseph Stalin ethnically cleansed Crimea of its Tatar population by either killing or banishing the community to Siberia.

 

[Periplus]

Due to Red Scare, to this day many think the USSR was akin to Nazi Germany,

It is not really about the red scare that they receive these comparisons.

It is the fact that Stalin killed 6 million people directly and 9 million indirectly, the fact the gulags (glorified Nazi concentration camps) were in vogue and that religious and ethnic freedoms were suppressed for decades.

I also forgot, they colonised half of Europe for 50 years.

 

[GemState]

@GemState

You are missing a large portion of history, arguably the most important when discussing the USSR, which is the Stalinist period. I am not sure if it is due to bias or due to ignorance but let me set the record straight.

Yes, Lenin favoured Ukrainian nationalism, he also wanted the USSR to be capitalist and wanted Islam to have a revival in Russia.

However, Stalin was extremely different.

Under his rule, Ukraine's former SSR leader was assassinated, Ukrainian nationalism was branded as "Bourgeois" and eliminated, as well as 4 million Ukrainians dying from famine that is now considered genocide by numerous nations

And this was all within his first decade of rule.

The same famine where excess famine mortality in several ethnically Russian regions was also very high and were close to Ukrainian levels? Stalin,the ethnically Georgian leader that purged mostly Russians? This is the evidence of Russian chavunism over Ukrainians?

Ukrainains profited of the Soviet Union, were in the top echelon of power during its entire existence, and you're telling me they were victims, give me a break.

 

[Periplus]

The same famine where excess famine mortality in several ethnically Russian regions was also very high and were close to Ukrainian levels? Stalin,the ethnically Georgian leader that purged mostly Russians? This is the evidence of Russian chavunism over Ukrainians?

Ukrainains profited of the Soviet Union, were in the top echelon of power during its entire existence, yet want to cry about the evil *Russians* commited.

Again, wrong.

1. The Famine happened in the Russian, Ukrainian and Kazakh SSR. More people died in the Ukrainian SSR than in either the Russian or Kazakh SSR.

2. The largest ethnic group in the USSR is Russian, therefore, most purged will be Russian.

3. Within his first two years in power, Stalin executed 7 thousand Georgians and banished 20 thousand. That's not including the thousands of rebels killed in 1924 Georgian uprising.

4. I will state it again: Just because Ukrainians held some nice positions doesn't mean they weren't subjugated. Stalin was Georgian, yet Georgians were expelled and killed in their tens of thousands under his regime.

 

[KawhiLeonard]

it's over for Russia.

Central Asia now belongs to China and the CSTO has collapsed.

they've lost 50k of their best and thousands of equipment as well as thousands of missiles.

the sanctions are like cancer, slow at first , but will become terminal if not removed.

USA is the biggest winner, now Europe is throughly its . and NATO has expanded.

midget Putin set Russia back 50 years. you can see the regret in his eyes.

 

[AboveHeigtś]

Europe always tried to cooperate with Russia since time immemorial. However, it always ends with Russia stabbing Europe in the back.

In WWII, Russia snaked Europe and made a deal with Hitler. When Hitler invaded, the US bailed out the red army with cash and equipment.

After WWII, they agreed to relinquish control of former Nazi-seized countries. The West gave France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy back but Russia took over all of Eastern Europe.

Now after the Cold War, when Russia is at its weakest. The West didn’t interfere in Russia like it did in post-war Germany.

They gave Central Asia to Russia as its hegemonic area. No one disputes Russia’s hegemony there. Beggars can’t be choosers, they lost Eastern Europe the minute they got independence.

Poland and Romania are now infinitely richer than they were in 1990 and now beat Russia in most (per capita) economic indicators.

Quite one sided.
Once again you fail to understand how much Soviet blood was shed during WWII, some estimate that 20million Soviets died on the Eastern front you can't expect the Soviets who weren't even aggressors to not been given any Ghaneema(war booty).

Soviet(socialist/communist) eyes there was capitalism(USA hegemony) or socialism(USSR hegemony). Soviet Union did in a away relinquishe Eastern Europe on paper since it didn't absorb them into Soviet Union after WWII although I do agree in a sense that Stalin had no intention of letting his newly gained buffer fall into the hands of Americans not to mention how the cornerstone of the Soviet ideology was exporting the global working class revolution against the evil burgeious. But it did keep Baltic states as part of USSR wich was a clear violation.

When USSR was disintegrating the West(US secretary) basically assured Gorbachev that NATO would not expand East of Germany, specially during the negotiations on German reunification. In a sense the Russians see the expansion of NATO and EU into former Warsaw pact members as a clear indication of hostility towards them.

How do I use spoilers? XD.

I think you are way too pro West and high on the worldview where West is good and the rest are apes need of democracy and other Western ideologies for salvation (I came into this conclusion after reading your posts old and new, bit naive from a French based African muslim).

 

[Periplus]

Quite one sided.
Once again you fail to understand how much Soviet blood was shed during WWII, some estimate that 20million Soviets died on the Eastern front you can't expect the Soviets who weren't even aggressors to not been given any Ghaneema(war booty).

Soviet(socialist/communist) eyes there was capitalism(USA hegemony) or socialism(USSR hegemony). Soviet Union did in a away relinquishe Eastern Europe on paper since it didn't absorb them into Soviet Union after WWII although I do agree in a sense that Stalin had no intention of letting his newly gained buffer fall into the hands of Americans not to mention how the cornerstone of the Soviet ideology was exporting the global working class revolution against the evil burgeious. But it did keep Baltic states as part of USSR wich was a clear violation.

When USSR was disintegrating the West(US secretary) basically assured Gorbachev that NATO would not expand East of Germany, specially during the negotiations on German reunification. In a sense the Russians see the expansion of NATO and EU into former Warsaw pact members as a clear indication of hostility towards them.
View attachment 238299







How do I use spoilers? XD.

I think you are way too pro West and high on the worldview where West is good and the rest are apes need of democracy and other Western ideologies for salvation (I came into this conclusion after reading your posts old and new, bit naive from a French based African muslim).

The Soviet Union literally started WWII when they and Nazi Germany invaded Poland. That’s the part they don’t teach in history class.

So I don’t think they deserved shit from WWII esp when nations like the UK didn’t occupy any European nations after the war.

The Soviet Union lost the Cold War and any guarantees with that government died when the USSR died. Gorbachev never got a signed treaty, so Putin can’t cry wolf.

Lastly, I’m a post-colonialist and I am anti-Western intervention outside of Europe.

However, inside Europe, the West has mostly been on the right side of history.

P.S I am a Somali living in Australia not France.

 

[Nilotic]

Stalin himself was infamous for suppressing Georgian nationalism when he was Georgian himself. The idea of nationalism is anathema to communistic ideals, especially those during the Stalinist era.

What both of you misunderstand about Soviet Russia is that individuals like Stalin or the Ukrainian SSR leaders did not identify with their homelands. They saw themselves as Soviets that were incorporating an ignorant population into the greater good that is communism.

In World War 2, the Soviet nationalism became Russian nationalism as they faced Hitler's invasion. The anthem was changed to include references about "Greater Russia".



What you also fail to understand about Crimea is that it is indigenous to a Muslim community, the Crimean Tatars, not Russians.

What happened to them?

Joseph Stalin ethnically cleansed Crimea of its Tatar population by either killing or banishing the community to Siberia.

Russia was a victim of State Socialism, so I can't readily accept the narrative that they benefited from that form of political and economic management just because the Communists cynically employed the Nationalism of the majority population in a time when a war of annihilation was taking place.

The Communists also allowed the formerly suppressed Orthodox Church to resume its activities, because of its morale boosting qualities.

 

[Periplus]

Russia was a victim of State Socialism, so I can't readily accept the narrative that they benefited from that form of political and economic management just because the Communists cynically employed the Nationalism of the majority population in a time when a war of annihilation was taking place.

The Communists also allowed the formerly suppressed Orthodox Church to resume its activities, because of its morale boosting qualities.

I never said Russian citizens benefitted from the USSR, they are victims also.

I was responding to your claim that Russian nationalism was trampled on during the Stalinist era which is untrue.

 

[AboveHeigtś]

The Soviet Union literally started WWII when they and Nazi Germany invaded Poland. That’s the part they don’t teach in history class.

So I don’t think they deserved shit from WWII esp when nations like the UK didn’t occupy any European nations after the war.

The Soviet Union lost the Cold War and any guarantees with that government died when the USSR died. Gorbachev never got a signed treaty, so Putin can’t cry wolf.

Lastly, I’m a post-colonialist and I am anti-Western intervention outside of Europe.

However, inside Europe, the West has mostly been on the right side of history.

P.S I am a Somali living in Australia not France.

Je suis ébahi, tu parles bien le français.

Well even average European doesn't hold your radical views. WWII started when France and UK declared war on Germany for the invasion of Poland, as they drew the final line there. West did nothing about USSR invasion. You May guess the reason.

Well can't argue with the rest I kinda agree but IMO Ukraine was a huge mistake, losers being Ukrainians and EU. Winners US, Norway and other gas exporting nations.

 

[Periplus]

Je suis ébahi, tu parles bien le français.

Well even average European doesn't hold your radical views. WWII started when France and UK declared war on Germany for the invasion of Poland, as they drew the final line there. West did nothing about USSR invasion. You May guess the reason.

Well can't argue with the rest I kinda agree but IMO Ukraine was a huge mistake, losers being Ukrainians and EU. Winners US, Norway and other gas exporting nations.

Merci mon gar.

The invasion of Poland by Germany couldn’t have been achieved without the Red Army coming from the East.

Stalin was more than happy to side with Hitler until the Nazis were outside Moscow.

I am a student of history and it doesn’t favour Russia. Since the 1990s, there has been a consistent effort to humanise Russian history which does not correlate with what is written.

 

[Nilotic]

I never said Russian citizens benefitted from the USSR, they are victims also.

I was responding to your claim that Russian nationalism was trampled on during the Stalinist era which is untrue.

It was cynically employed in order to win the war; Nationalism was otherwise seen as an obstacle that needed to be overcome -- and Russian Nationalism (save for WWII) was regarded the same way.

A lot of Russian Nationalists loathe that period because they feel that their Nation and culture was suppressed and deprived of important territories.

 

[bidenkulaha]

We mustn’t get complacent for sure. I support U.K. ramping up weapon shipments given Russia is at its weakest. We shouldn’t take a rest, offence is the best form of defence.