Somalia’s New President Had a Tangible Role In Somaliland’s Genocide says Muse Bihi Abdi

[Steamdevolopment]

The late government unfortunately responded to internal rebellion by resorting to collective punishment time and time again. It was wrong and anyone that cant acknowledge that is deluded.

You can view the action by the government as a survival mechanism to defeat an internal enemy funded by its arch enemy, and view the loss of life as collateral damage with the aim of the saving that state.

Or you could view it as a mass murder and genocide done out of inherent hatred for one specific or specific clans without another rational basis.

How you view depends on your political leanings and clan of birth, I think the truth lies in between these two positions. It was a a total war between to waring fractions that led to genocide on both sides as collateral damage become acceptable as it was the other sides loss and not of your "own.

Nuance is important.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

@Lixle His first diplomatic job was when he was nearly 24 years old actually.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

No, but that distinction is that were strategic first and foremost from a government under siege, and the loss of civilians were considered collateral damage by the government. It would tolerate a high loss of Isaaq civilians to achieve the aim of reducing a rebel movement that threatened the survival of the somali state funded by its arch enemy combined with paranoid leader. It had a rational to defeat the rebels hiding in the population in Hargeisa. A government doesn't bomb just for the reason of bombing but with a specific aim.

Are you really saying the government bombed Hargeisa just hurt Isaaq people, for no other rational?

The rebels attacked civilians in the capital who did not pose a threat to them and did it solely on ethnic bases, and therefore a genocide.

I think maybe there's an IQ barrier here. Im sorry to be condescending but I can't think of any other reason for u to still not understand the difference between loss of civilian lives as collateral and collective punishment. Ur saying the USC deliberately targeted the Darood even though they were civilians and had nothing to do with the army or the government. Ummm....well....that's exactly what happened to the Isaaqs civilians as well. They weren't dying because of a heavy handed approach to flush out the SNM rebels, they were dying because the civilians, including women and children, were being rounded up and killed for being Isaaq. They were also being bombed from the air even when the rebels weren't in the vicinity. What don't u understand about what I'm saying to u, am I speaking Chinese?

 

[Bahal]

You can view the action by the government as a survival mechanism to defeat a internal enemy funded by its arch enemy, and view the loss of life as collateral damage with the aim of the saving that state. Or you could view as a mass murder and genocide done out of inherent hatery for one specific or specific clans without another rational basis.

How you view depends on your political leanings and clan of birth, I think the truth lies in between these two positions. It was a a total war between to waring fractions that led to genocide on both sides as collateral damage become acceptable as it was the other sides loss and not of your "own.

Nuance is important.

Look, I can understand inadvertent civilian casualties in a war against rebel groups. Personally, I would be prepared to accept a certain degree of collateral damage in order to win a war that would ultimately lead to the collapse of the Somali state.

However, there is a clear distinction between collateral damage and deliberately targeting civilians (collective punishment) in an effort to break the will of the rebellion.

Not only is it morally reprehensible, it's actually an awful counter insurgency strategy that almost always backfires. Not only does it justify the rebellion, it drives the civilians into the arms of rebels who win the hearts and minds of the civilians without firing a single shot.

At that point, the government deserved to fall.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

You can't throw stones when you're in a glass house. The SNM targeted Dhulbahante, Warsangeli, Gadabursi innocent civilians calling them Faqash. The victim mentality when you done the same thing is hypocrital. Ceerigabo was a shared town with Harti majority before the civil war, and the SNM attacked innocent civilians to change the demographics. That's why the Warsangelis relocated to Badhan, and Dhuloz left to Jidali only recently coming back. But you guys dub them as heroes whilst calling yourself victims.

Thoughout the civil war, nomads were not really touched but the SNM were targetting nomads. Even today, in Kalshaale a petty nomad dispute led to a full scale conflict between Buuhoodle & Somaliland where we karbaashed you. LMAO!

Sxb i no longer regard you as a Patriot, you still hold false qabiil narratives as the truth that have destroyed Somalia. This very thread is the reason why Somalia is a shit hole.

 

[TheMadMullah]

The late government unfortunately responded to internal rebellion by resorting to collective punishment time and time again. It was wrong and anyone that cant acknowledge that is deluded.

Its True that cant deny it was harsh response But the question is was it genocide?? I say No and i want to be convinced otherwise

 

[Steamdevolopment]

I think maybe there's an IQ barrier here. Im sorry to be condescending but I can't think of any other reason for u to still not understand the difference between loss of civilian lives as collateral and collective punishment. Ur saying the USC deliberately targeted the Darood even though they were civilians and had nothing to do with the army or the government. Ummm....well....that's exactly what happened to the Isaaqs civilians as well. They weren't dying because of a heavy handed approach to flush out the SNM rebels, they were dying because the civilians, including women and children, were being rounded up and killed for being Isaaq. They were also being bombed from the air even when the rebels weren't in the vicinity. What don't u understand about what I'm saying to u, am I speaking Chinese?

Honestly, you can't insult my intelligence spelling like you do.

The rebels managed to blend with the general population as they look like them and had operation bases in ordinary houses making it more difficult for the state to find them. I think any state would find a strong rational basis to heighten the tolerance for collateral damage, as the civilians got in the cross hairs in the search of SNM, who did hide among the population at large in the same fashion as Al-shabaab does now.

The differences between collective punishment and collateral damage dependents on the fact if you believe that the government had a rational basis to target Hargeisa. On that we differ, but we agree that it can be characterize as genocide.

 

[Foreman]

Off topic but any of you Isaaq Landers is genuinely amused by @Steamdevolopment and @SomaliWadaniSoldier witty posts? I should be angry and full of rage of you constant jokes on SL but u guys are really good comedians I spit my coffee when reading your stuff. Top class jokers keep it coming guys.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

I don't have a victim mentality. I'm a Garxajis man and no clan in Somalia is a threat to me, so how can I be a victim? I have no cuqdad for any Somali for what happened in 1988, ur mistaking me for some other Isaaqs born after 1991 who were raised on state propaganda to make sure they remain seccessionists. All I said was Farmajo claimed what happened in Xamar to darods was a genocide, but he claimed Isaaqs died in crossfire. I was telling people in case they weren't aware that Isaaq civilians didn't merely die in the crossfire but were deliberately targeted. My point had nothing to do with what the SNM did after the government fell, we can talk about that separately.

Isaaq civilians were deliberately targeted not by the government but by individual generals and lieutenants etc, but the SNM deliberately targeted civilians. Siad Barre fell into a car collision in 1986, and he was never the same since. It is rumoured that the government was mostly led by a small group of family since then.

Darood faced far higher civilian massacres than Isaaq, yet you don't see this victim mentality among us. Wells were poisoned, we were massacred in Xamar by the lunatic Aideed, I could go on. Yet both Darood & Hawiye have left the bad behind us and forgiven each other. How can Isaaq who done the exact same thing therefore hold a grudge?

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Look, I can understand inadvertent civilian casualties in a war against rebel groups. Personally, I would be prepared to accept a certain degree of collateral damage in order to win a war that would ultimately lead to the collapse of the Somali state.

However, there is a clear distinction between collateral damage and deliberately targeting civilians (collective punishment) in an effort to break the will of the rebellion.

Not only is it morally reprehensible, it's actually an awful counter insurgency strategy that almost always backfires. Not only does it justify the rebellion, it drives the civilians into the arms of rebels who win the hearts and minds of the civilians without firing a single shot.

At that point, the government deserved to fall.

Absolutely sxb, I agree 100%. They think I'm one of these emotional Isaaqs who are offended that the government even fought against our rebellion. I understand the the regime had every right to fight against it, just as the SNM had every right to wage a rebellion to begin with as long as they were ok with the consequences. If u start a fight u better be ready for a response, it's only logical. So in that regard I would be willing to accept Isaaq civilians as collateral and I wouldn't think of it as a crime by the regime at all. The issue for me and for u and for any person with a sound mind and heart was the collective punishment, where all Isaaqs were deemed targets.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Look, I can understand inadvertent civilian casualties in a war against rebel groups. Personally, I would be prepared to accept a certain degree of collateral damage in order to win a war that would ultimately lead to the collapse of the Somali state.

However, there is a clear distinction between collateral damage and deliberately targeting civilians (collective punishment) in an effort to break the will of the rebellion.

Not only is it morally reprehensible, it's actually an awful counter insurgency strategy that almost always backfires. Not only does it justify the rebellion, it drives the civilians into the arms of rebels who win the hearts and minds of the civilians without firing a single shot.

At that point, the government deserved to fall.

Don't disagree but I think in the mind of the government that the SNM had hide among the population in the same fashion as Al-shabbab had to be rooted out with extreme measures.

I view the suffering of the people Hargeisa in the same fashion as the suffering of my own family in that context, both victims of vicious leaders.

 

[TheMadMullah]

I think maybe there's an IQ barrier here. Im sorry to be condescending but I can't think of any other reason for u to still not understand the difference between loss of civilian lives as collateral and collective punishment. Ur saying the USC deliberately targeted the Darood even though they were civilians and had nothing to do with the army or the government. Ummm....well....that's exactly what happened to the Isaaqs civilians as well. They weren't dying because of a heavy handed approach to flush out the SNM rebels, they were dying because the civilians, including women and children, were being rounded up and killed for being Isaaq. They were also being bombed from the air even when the rebels weren't in the vicinity. What don't u understand about what I'm saying to u, am I speaking Chinese?

What your forgetting is that the cities targeted by the army became hiding place for snm and the regime resorted to extreme measures to flash them out... so its not as if the people were targeted for being isaaq and what will you say of the isaaq army officers were they Killing their own people??

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

All the history deniers are full of shit. Why can't we just own up to what happened & move forward as a people? Instead of being y & constantly arguing over who's "clan" suffered the most. The Somali psyche needs to be radically changed, we need brotherhood based on nation, not clans.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Off topic but any of you Isaaq Landers is genuinely amused by @Steamdevolopment and @SomaliWadaniSoldier witty posts? I should be angry and full of rage of you constant jokes on SL but u guys are really good comedians I spit my coffee when reading your stuff. Top class jokers keep it coming guys.

Angry about what?

I view the suffering of the people Hargeisa in the same fashion as the suffering of my own family in that context, both victims of vicious leaders.

What we differ is not whether the bombing can be characterized as genocide but whether there was a rational basis for the government.

@jugjugwacwac My point may have been to legalistic and complex for you to understand.

All the history deniers are full of shit. Why can't we just own up to what happened & move forward as a people? Instead of being y & constantly arguing over who's "clan" suffered the most. The Somali psyche needs to be radically changed, we need brotherhood based on nation, not clans.

I at least don't deny history, merely nuancing it. The Isaaq people were victims of atrocities, the question is only if the government had a rational basis to suspect that their targeted attacks could be aimed SNM hiding in the genereal population. I think with the information it had at the time had reason to believe that they operated there, doesn't excuse their actions, however.

In law, you need a rational basis and proportionality to argue for a policies constitutionality in Denmark. The attacks were disportionate and therefore fail to further a legitimate aim.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Isaaq civilians were deliberately targeted, just like how the SNM deliberately targeted civilians. Siad Barre fell into a car collision in 1986, and he was never the same since. It is rumoured that the government was mostly led by a small group of family since then.

Darood faced far higher civilian massacres than Isaaq, yet you don't see this victim mentality among us. Wells were poisoned, we were massacred in Xamar by the lunatic Aideed, I could go on. Yet both Darood & Hawiye have left the bad behind us and forgiven each other. How can Isaaq who done the exact same thing therefore hold a grudge?

U r better than ur comrades here because ur willing to admit the Isaaq were targeted. As for the cuqdad sxb, why r u addressing this to me when I said I have no cuqdad for any Somali? Don't u read my replies? As for Daarood having higher civilian casualties than Isaaq I don't think it's smart for any side to make such claims when u know we can't get accurate numbers from the wars. As for what the SNM did it wasn't good but u have to admit they showed restraint. When they toppled the regime the Daarood and Gadabuursi were at the complete mercy of the SNM. We didn't go on the killing sprees that the USC did, even though some killings did occur. Also SNM engaging in some killings, which of course were wrong, is more understandable because your clan and the Gadabuursi were seen by the Isaaq as supporters of the regime who genocided them. The Hawiye weren't targeted by the regime the way the Isaaq were yet they still massacred the Daaroods in Xamar. The SNM did kill people, but u have to admit they showed restraint considering the situation.

 

[XamarCade]

Wells were poisoned, we were massacred in Xamar by the lunatic Aideed, I could go on. Yet both Darood & Hawiye have left the bad behind us and forgiven each other. How can Isaaq who done the exact same thing therefore hold a grudge?

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that easy point ur making.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that easy point ur making.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding the SL project if you think it is alone about the violations that they had been trough.

It is now more about the lack of representation among the most trusted offices and the fear of a repeat of past misgivings by a new central government. Those both have to be addressed for our continued relationship.

 

[Bahal]

Don't disagree but I think in the mind of the government that the SNM had hide among the population in the same fashion as Al-shabbab had to be rooted out with extreme measures.

I view the suffering of the people Hargeisa in the same fashion as the suffering of my own family in that context, both victims of vicious leaders.

There are reports that jets were strafing refugee columns



There is no justifying that

 

[TheMadMullah]

All the history deniers are full of shit. Why can't we just own up to what happened & move forward as a people? Instead of being y & constantly arguing over who's "clan" suffered the most. The Somali psyche needs to be radically changed, we need brotherhood based on nation, not clans.

Fabricated history can not be acknowledged isaaqs want to push auschwitz kind of fabricated history and hold Somalis ransom for that like the Jews do to Europeans!

 

[Steamdevolopment]

U r better than ur comrades here because ur willing to admit the Isaaq were targeted. As for the cuqdad sxb, why r u addressing this to me when I said I have no cuqdad for any Somali? Don't u read my replies? As for Daarood having higher civilian casualties than Isaaq I don't think it's smart for any side to make such claims when u know we can't get accurate numbers from the wars. As for what the SNM did it wasn't good but u have to admit they showed restraint. When they toppled the regime the Daarood and Gadabuursi were at the complete mercy of the SNM. We didn't go on the killing sprees that the USC did, even though some killings did occur. Also SNM engaging in some killings, which of course were wrong, is more understandable because your clan and the Gadabuursi were seen by the Isaaq as supporters of the regime who genocided them. The Hawiye weren't targeted by the regime the way the Isaaq were yet they still massacred the Daaroods in Xamar. The SNM did kill people, but u have to admit they showed restraint considering the situation.

So killing is "understandable" because our people puts collective guilt on clan but when an armed rebel group threaten a government survival it does not qualify as a rational basis and can only be classified as clan based genocide?