Somalia’s New President Had a Tangible Role In Somaliland’s Genocide says Muse Bihi Abdi

[merka]

Off topic but any of you Isaaq Landers is genuinely amused by @Steamdevolopment and @SomaliWadaniSoldier witty posts? I should be angry and full of rage of you constant jokes on SL but u guys are really good comedians I spit my coffee when reading your stuff. Top class jokers keep it coming guys.

@SomaliWadaniSoldier is funny. @Steamdevolopment actually believes what s/he is saying

 

[jugjugwacwac]

The differences between collective punishment and collateral damage dependents on the fact if you believe that the government had a rational basis to target Hargeisa. On that we differ, but we agree that it can be characterize as genocide.

U and @TheMadMullah are either not reading my replies or something else which I can't understand is wrong with u two. I already said the government was justified in attacking the north in order to flush out the rebels, and I would happily accept any civilian deaths as collateral and would consider the government to be blameless. What u and ur freind @TheMadMullah are still denying for some reason is that the Isaaqs weren't just killed for being in the vicintiy of SNM rebels, but were being picked up off the street and being sent to firing squads. Other were being bombed from the sky even though no SNM were even close to the area. Just like the USC targeted Daarood for being Daarood the regime targeted Isaaqs for being Isaaqs.

 

[Bahal]

MSB regime targeted Mj's, isaaq and Sacad but the latter two sent him to nigeria to die a shameful death. While MJ supported MSB once they received funds.

Caydiid aun was by far one of the most misunderstood somalis of the 90's. MSB feared aidiid for his life while he feared Yusuf for the nation.

So misunderstood hardcore "faqash" like Ina Salaad Booy and Hussein Kulmiye Afrax, the interior minister and literal vice president of the Kacaan, were not only spared but ushered into the upper echelons of the USC but baby Bahal had to flee

 

[Steamdevolopment]

@SomaliWadaniSoldier is funny. @Steamdevolopment actually believes what s/he is saying

My argument might be too legalistic for you all to understand. I merely argue that the government had a rational basis to conduct action and that the targeting was of rebels but it used disproportionate force, that can be characterized as genocide.

Now tell my, where I am wrong?

U and @TheMadMullah are either not reading my replies or something else which I can't understand is wrong with u two. I already said the government was justified in attacking the north in order to flush out the rebels, and I would happily accept any civilian deaths as collateral and would consider the government to be blameless. What u and ur freind @TheMadMullah are still denying for some reason is that the Isaaqs weren't just killed for being in the vicintiy of SNM rebels, but were being picked up off the street and being sent to firing squads. Other were being bombed from the sky even though no SNM were even close to the area. Just like the USC targeted Daarood for being Daarood the regime targeted Isaaqs for being Isaaqs.

We don't disagree on that, I have stated that the government had a initially a rational basis to conduct attacks against rebels but it used disproportionate force as in killing innocent civilians for arbitrary reasons in an attempt to flush out rebels.

 

[TheMadMullah]

MSB regime targeted Mj's, isaaq and Sacad but the latter two sent him to nigeria to die a shameful death. While MJ supported MSB once they received funds.

Caydiid aun was by far one of the most misunderstood somalis of the 90's. MSB feared aidiid for his life while he feared Yusuf for the nation.

Aydiid is nothing more than criminal who looted and killed innocent people... but Abdulahi Yusuf neutralized him once he was released from prison in Ethiopia!

 

[XamarCade]

You're fundamentally misunderstanding the SL project if you think it is alone about the violations that they had been trough.

It is now more about the lack of representation among the most trusted offices and the fear of a repeat of past misgivings by a new central government. Those both have to be addressed for our continued relationship.

I get that, but how can they get a spot in office if they dont want it and they're hell bent on getting "ictiraaf " lol

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Fabricated history can not be acknowledged isaaqs want to push auschwitz kind of fabricated history and hold Somalis ransom for that like the Jews do to Europeans!

Is it that hard to acknowledge the oppression of certain qabiils? The regime may have given it a different name, but the number of slaughtered innocent people that came from certain clans speaks for itself. Genocide took place. Collective punishment based on qabiil destroyed Somalia.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

I get that, but how can they get a spot in office if they dont want it and they're hell bent on getting "ictiraaf " lol

It takes us being the better people, and we need a truth and reconciliation committee like the one in South Africa.

As is evident from this thread, some past misgivings have not been addressed and are viewed starkly different. That is the first step.

The next is devising a form of cooperation for the future, a joint federation with join military, foreign policy and immigration would be ideal.

Is it that hard to acknowledge the oppression of certain qabiils? The regime may have given it a different name, but the number of slaughtered innocent people that came from certain clans speaks for itself. Genocide took place. Collective punishment based on qabiil destroyed Somalia.

That is a simplistic though true narration. I think the more nuanced narrative would be that Siad Barre merciless went after anyone opposing him regardless of qabil but with a special focus on the groups of people, most often clans that opposed him collectively.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

So killing is "understandable" because our people puts collective guilt on clan but when an armed rebel group threaten a government survival it does not qualify as a rational basis and can only be classified as clan based genocide?

Ur letting clan sentiment take hold of u. I mean in our primitive Somali justice system the SNM killing was more understandable than the USC killing of Daaroods since they viewed it as revenge. Despite this they still didn't go ham like the USC and decided to restrain themselves. They ended up calling all Northern clans to a peace conference in Burco. So I wasn't justying what the SNM did, I'm saying it's more understandable within the Somali context/justice system when compared to the actions of the USC. But regardless killing civilians is always wrong and I recognize what they did as crimes.

For example, the Dhulbahante want to leave Somaliland. If they wage a serious armed resistance against Somaliland and the Somaliland government responds by destroying Buuhodle and Laascaanood and targets Dhulbahante civilians, it would be understandable to me if the Dhulbahante rebels sought revenge by killing ISaaq civilians if they were successful in defeating the Somaliland government. It wouldn't make it right, but as Somalis we're just savage like that so it makes sense in a Somali context unfortunately.

P.S. I've already said about three times now in this thread that the Siyaad Barre government had a rational and justified basis to flush out the rebels in the north, and any civilians who died as collateral would be fine with me.

 

[Foreman]

@SomaliWadaniSoldier is funny. @Steamdevolopment actually believes what s/he is saying

@SomaliWadaniSoldier definitely takes the cake. The DP, writing style, creative insults and overall serious tone are fun to read even though he insults my people @Steamdevolopment has his moments too but lately got serious and engage more and more in intellectual discussions.

 

[merka]

My argument might be too legalistic for you all to understand. I merely argue that the government had a rational basis to conduct action and that the targeting was of rebels but it used disproportionate force, that can be characterized as genocide.

Now tell my, where I am wrong?

Legalistic? You're trying to justify State terrorism.

In the end all those atrocities that the Barre regime committed didn't work. The SNM won the war and the regime collapsed. Let's move on.

 

[SultanuuFicaan]

Legalistic? You're trying to justify State terrorism.

In the end all those atrocities that the Barre regime committed didn't work. The SNM won the war and the regime collapsed. Let's move on.

If the state never attacked isaaq/sacad in the 1980's, caydiid and tuur would not have emerged, likewise with USC/SNM and later Ogaden siding with Hawiye.
These kids are taught revisionist history
'unruly hawiye/isaaq destroyed the government for no reason, they're traitors!'

Anyways, blood has been shed and now we are dying from droughts/terrorism. It's time to move on and initiate a clan reconciliation process.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

We don't disagree on that, I have stated that the government had a initially a rational basis to conduct attacks against rebels but it used disproportionate force as in killing innocent civilians for arbitrary reasons in an attempt to flush out rebels.

So ur saying rounding up truck loads of civilian Isaaq women and shooting them dead by firing squad was a disproportionate use of force in an attempt to flush out rebels?

 

[Bahal]

If the state never attacked isaaq/sacad in the 1980's, caydiid and tuur would not have emerged, likewise with USC/SNM and later Ogaden siding with Hawiye.
These kids are taught revisionist history
'unruly hawiye/isaaq destroyed the government for no reason, they're traitors!'

Anyways, blood has been shed and now we are dying from droughts/terrorism. It's time to move on and initiate a clan reconciliation process.

While they did not fight for no reason as you put it, do you think the government just woke up one morning and decided hmm let's f*ck up these specific clans for no particular reason

The attacks most commonly cited as justification happened in 1989...the USC was formed in 1987.

The SNM was founded in 1981.

Conveniently around the same time we were also arming and training the TPLF and EPLF

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Ur letting clan sentiment take hold of u. I mean in our primitive Somali moral system the SNM killing was more understandable than the USC killing of Daaroods since they viewed it as revenge. Despite this they still didn't go ham like the USC and decided to restrain themselves. They ended up calling all Northern clans to a peace conference in Burco. So I wasn't justying what the SNM did, I'm saying it's more understandable within the Somali context/moral system when compared to the actions of the USC. But regardless killing civilians is always wrong and I recognize what they did as crimes.

For example, the Dhulbahante want leave Somaliland. If they wage a serious armed resistance against Somaliland and the Somaliland government responds by destroying Buuhodle and Laascaanood and targets Dhulbahante civilians, it would be understandable to me if the Dhulbahante rebels sought revenge by killing ISaaq civilians if they were successful in defeating the Somaliland government. It wouldn't make it right, but as Somalis we're just savage like that so it makes sense in a Somali context unfortunately.

P.S. I've already said about three times now in this thread that the Siyaad Barre government had a rational and justified basis to flush out the rebels in the north, and any civilians who died as collateral would be fine with me.

Then we agree but as true Somalis use several hours to discuss

Anyways, I find a government trying to secure its survival to be a more universal understandable reason for killing but then again, you don't need a reason to kill anymore it seems in Somalia

Legalistic? You're trying to justify State terrorism.

In the end all those atrocities that the Barre regime committed didn't work. The SNM won the war and the regime collapsed. Let's move on.

I am not justifying it merely nuancing it and trying to bring the Farmaajo qoute into context that can explain it rationally.

Nigga, do you understand what the words disproportionate use of force and not furthering a legitimate aim means?

It is the test for which government policies are held to based on four criteria used by both the EU court, the Court of human rights, and the Danish court:


1: There must be a legitimate aim for a measure
2: The measure must be suitable to achieve the aim (potentially with a requirement of evidence to show it will have that effect
3: The measure must be necessary to achieve the aim, that there cannot be any less onerous way of doing is
4: The measure must be reasonable, considering the competing interests of different groups at hand

The human rights court and the danish court combine the last two.

Anyways, the bombing were aimed a legitimate aim: Removing violent rebels, so they didn't destroy the government, but fails the criteria as it could be done less onerous way and it is not reasonable to target a whole groups for use of force, when the rebel are limited to a small group and it could be done by more targeted attacks.

Never the less, we have to move on to built better relations for the future but try to understand the legal train of thought.

 

[TheMadMullah]

So ur saying rounding up truck loads of civilian Isaaq women and shooting them dead by firing squad was a disproportionate use of force in an attempt to flush out rebels?

Sounds so aljazeera documentary from the other day... how comes it's only isaaqs who say people were rounded up how comes not even the hawiyes who later fought the regime don't acknowledge things like that it really makes one wonder if that was snm lullaby.

 

[CorpseBride]

Isaac and Hawiye not on the same level, we're targets.

Isaacs were being ethnically cleansed. And were refugees in their own land.

And let's never forget the terror said brought upon Xamar when he shot at protesting students. Door knocking dragging out fathers in the streets and executing them.

We can't justify what happened after the regime was toppled but nothing happens in vacuum. If we're gonna look at Somalia post 90s then we must figure out what went wrong pre 90s and a lot of people refuse to do that out if qabilyaal.

One clan can't mend their own pain but we have to mend each other and how do we do that if we're pointing fingers.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

So ur saying rounding up truck loads of civilian Isaaq women and shooting them dead by firing squad was a disproportionate use of force in an attempt to flush out rebels?

It was disproportionate indeed and wrong of the government regardless even if it thought it had a rational basis, which I would doubt in such a situation.

I am sorry for what you had to go trough regardless, that should not get lost.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Sounds so aljazeera documentary from the other day... how comes it's only isaaqs who say people were rounded up how comes not even the hawiyes who later fought the regime don't acknowledge things like that it really makes one wonder if that was snm lullaby.

But I told u it happened to my own family. My aunt witnessed it with her own eyes. Anyway, there's no reasoning with u, ur like XamarCade, just another one of those sociopathic Somalis who would kill, rape and loot with no remorse if rule of law broke down, I'm sure of it.

 

[TheMadMullah]

As long as isaaqs push fake auschwitz victimhood nothing will be fixed and the dream of uncoming ictiraaf will continue... btw barre hanged his own cousin and one of the so called sheikhs killed was his clan member and even subclan