Southern Arabian Influence

[Clllam]

What sort of power did they posses in somali populated regions. I’ve been reading some papers on the recent discoveries in nugaal and the supposed himyarite/sabean scripts discovered there in an enclosure. I would like to know some more information on this...or is it to early to ask such a question?

 

[Shimbiris]

Seemingly just very important trade partners. Everytime we get writings about the northern Somali coast from Greek and Roman writers it appears that they were pretty much independent and locally run by the "Berbers" whom the Greco-Romans felt had a similar culture to other coastal peoples in what are now northeast Sudan, Eritrea and Djibouti. So obviously coastal Cushitic people / ancestral Somalis of some kind. And they mention that each coastal town has its own Chieftain/Tyrant and that the local people are very unruly.

It basically seems like the same system as the Middle Ages and Early Modern era was in place. Coastal city-states which would become stuff like "Sultanates" during the Islamic period and then, as far as we can tell from the archaeology, you'd have pastoral nomadic, agropastoral and settled farmer peoples in the hinterlands and some towns along the trade-routes toward the south and further into the hinterland toward what is now Ethiopia with some of these places being somewhat under the influence of the coastal rulers.

Then just top all that off with a lot of cultural influences from Yemen like writing, probably some religious and cultural influences at least in the towns and so forth. When Islam came around this just shifted the influence to becoming the use of the Arabic script and the prevalence of Islam and Arabic loanwords among other things like probably horses.

 

[Moholin01]

Very little influence, if any at all. There is no evidence of influence on Somali language (apart from a few words, but could just as likely be coincidental), no influence on Somali culture or religion, no influence on architecture etc. Most likely south Semitic traders came and went briefly, but never permanently settled. Which supports my theory that the T-haplogroup ancestors of Somalis couldn't have been South Arabians.

Even Indians Parsi, Jewish, Syrian etc descent kept some of their cultural and religious practices.

 

[Clllam]

Seemingly just very important trade partners. Everytime we get writings about the northern Somali coast from Greek and Roman writers it appears that they were pretty much independent and locally run by the "Berbers" whom the Greco-Romans felt had a similar culture to other coastal peoples in what are now northeast Sudan, Eritrea and Djibouti. So obviously coastal Cushitic people / ancestral Somalis of some kind. And they mention that each coastal town has its own Chieftain/Tyrant and that the local people are very unruly.

It basically seems like the same system as the Middle Ages and Early Modern era was in place. Coastal city-states which would become stuff like "Sultanates" during the Islamic period and then, as far as we can tell from the archaeology, you'd have pastoral nomadic, agropastoral and settled farmer peoples in the hinterlands and some towns along the trade-routes toward the south and further into the hinterland toward what is now Ethiopia with some of these places being somewhat under the influence of the coastal rulers.

Then just top all that off with a lot of cultural influences from Yemen like writing, probably some religious and cultural influences at least in the towns and so forth. When Islam came around this just shifted the influence to becoming the use of the Arabic script and the prevalence of Islam and Arabic loanwords among other things like probably horses.

Is there some more information about these states? What were their connections?

 

[Shimbiris]

Yo

Is there some more information about these states? What were their connections?

Look up Greek and Roman texts on the region as well as some Aksumite stuff. The Periplus of the Erythraean sea is a good place to start. A lot of these old towns have modern and medieval equivalents like people positing that Bosaso/Bandar Qasim is probably "Mosylon" or somewhere close to it or how Zeila/Saylac is probably "Avalites" which sounds eerily like a Greek morphing of the name "Adal" which tells you just how old that name is considering the text is from roughly 2,000 years ago.

This old blog did some rundowns that may help:

The Barbaroi of Northeast Africa

Normally I don't touch upon historical topics of this nature but this one was particularly alluring to me as it touches upon my homeland o...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

 

[Clllam]

Look up Greek and Roman texts on the region as well as some Aksumite stuff. The Periplus of the Erythraean sea is a good place to start. A lot of these old towns have modern and medieval equivalents like people positing that Bosaso/Bandar Qasim is probably "Mosylon" or somewhere close to it or how Zeila/Saylac is probably "Avalites" which sounds eerily like a Greek morphing of the name "Adal" which tells you just how old that name is considering the text is from roughly 2,000 years ago.

This old blog did some rundowns that may help:

The Barbaroi of Northeast Africa

Normally I don't touch upon historical topics of this nature but this one was particularly alluring to me as it touches upon my homeland o...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

Imagine what would be known had there been native sources. This is why I’m particularly interested in those inscriptions, much information could be uncovered about specific events.
The same problem is also present with the ajuran and adal empires, not much was written by themselves but rather by the Abyssinians and europeans.

 

[reer]

Imagine what would be known had there been native sources. This is why I’m particularly interested in those inscriptions, much information could be uncovered about specific events.
The same problem is also present with the ajuran and adal empires, not much was written by themselves but rather by the Abyssinians and europeans.

not much. apart from a few cities and adal era somalis were illiterate camel chasing bedouins oo geel dhici jiray. we just saw civilization.

 

[Shimbiris]

Imagine what would be known had there been native sources. This is why I’m particularly interested in those inscriptions, much information could be uncovered about specific events.
The same problem is also present with the ajuran and adal empires, not much was written by themselves but rather by the Abyssinians and europeans.

A lot probably was written by those Medieval groups but most of it is likely lost now or sitting in some medieval library somewhere like in Harar and yet to be seen and put online or in University databases, basically. When you read up on early modern Somali sheikhs, wadaads and townspeople you will notice there was clearly quite a bit of literacy and people writing things down but due to everything being on perishable objects like paper we've lost a lot to the sands of time, unfortunately.

Take this guy:

Shortly after arrival, I sent my Salam to one of the Ulema, Shaykh Jami of the Berteri Somal: he accepted the excuse of ill health, and at once came to see me. This personage appeared in the form of a little black man aged about forty, deeply pitted by small-pox, with a protruding brow, a tufty beard and rather delicate features: his hands and feet were remarkably small. Married to a descendant of the Sherif Yunis, he had acquired great reputation as an Alim or Savan, a peace-policy-man, and an ardent Moslem. Though an imperfect Arabic scholar, he proved remarkably well read in the religious sciences, and even the Meccans had, it was said, paid him the respect of kissing his hand during his pilgrimage. In his second character, his success was not remarkable, the principal results being a spear-thrust in the head, and being generally told to read his books and leave men alone. Yet he is always doing good “lillah,” that is to say, gratis and for Allah’s sake: his pugnacity and bluntness—the prerogatives of the “peaceful”—gave him some authority over the Amir, and he has often been employed on political missions amongst the different chiefs.​

He was a very prominent and well-read scholar and political figure from Harar of Somali descent and his clan frequently intermarried with the Emirs of Harar with that generation's Emir's first wife being of this man's tribe (Bartire) and the daughter of their chieftain, yet I had to find out about him through a British text:

First footsteps in East Africa : Richard Francis, Sir Burton : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

He no doubt left behind writings throughout his life and there were probably records of him somewhere. Just yet to be found or lost forever. It's unbelievable to think how many interesting Somalis throughout history there have been whom we know close to nothing about.

 

[Clllam]

A lot probably was written by those Medieval groups but most of it is likely lost now or sitting in some medieval library somewhere like in Harar and yet to be seen and put online or in University databases, basically. When you read up on early modern Somali sheikhs, wadaads and townspeople you will notice there was clearly quite a bit of literacy and people writing things down but due to everything being on perishable objects like paper we've lost a lot to the sands of time, unfortunately.

Take this guy:

Shortly after arrival, I sent my Salam to one of the Ulema, Shaykh Jami of the Berteri Somal: he accepted the excuse of ill health, and at once came to see me. This personage appeared in the form of a little black man aged about forty, deeply pitted by small-pox, with a protruding brow, a tufty beard and rather delicate features: his hands and feet were remarkably small. Married to a descendant of the Sherif Yunis, he had acquired great reputation as an Alim or Savan, a peace-policy-man, and an ardent Moslem. Though an imperfect Arabic scholar, he proved remarkably well read in the religious sciences, and even the Meccans had, it was said, paid him the respect of kissing his hand during his pilgrimage. In his second character, his success was not remarkable, the principal results being a spear-thrust in the head, and being generally told to read his books and leave men alone. Yet he is always doing good “lillah,” that is to say, gratis and for Allah’s sake: his pugnacity and bluntness—the prerogatives of the “peaceful”—gave him some authority over the Amir, and he has often been employed on political missions amongst the different chiefs.​

He was a very prominent and well-read scholar and political figure from Harar of Somali descent and his clan frequently intermarried with the Emirs of Harar with that generation's Emir's first wife being of this man's tribe (Bartire) and the daughter of their chieftain, yet I had to find out about him through a British text:

First footsteps in East Africa : Richard Francis, Sir Burton : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

He no doubt left behind writings throughout his life and there were probably records of him somewhere. Just yet to be found or lost forever. It's unbelievable to think how many interesting Somalis throughout history there have been whom we know close to nothing about.

Sad indeed.

 

[Clllam]

not much. apart from a few cities and adal era somalis were illiterate camel chasing bedouins oo geel dhici jiray. we just saw civilization.

The majority, yes, but i think religion played a big part in literacy. I firmly believe we have writings which went into the unknown simply because islam is a religion of knowledge and writings. I Also don’t think they were unaware of that which was being written in Baghdad during the golden era. Islam always brings civilisation, even to savages like us.

 

[Shimbiris]

Sad indeed.

Yep. Like when Battuta mentions the Sultan of Xamar in 1331. He makes it clear that this Sultan knew how to read and write and was a "Barbara" who are dark-skinned, Shafi'i Muslims who herd camels and sheep while living from Saylac down to around Xamar according to him (obviously Somalis) but we natively know close to nothing about this Sultan. His name is nowhere to be found because Xamar's historical texts have mostly been lost. Very sad.

not much. apart from a few cities and adal era somalis were illiterate camel chasing bedouins oo geel dhici jiray. we just saw civilization.

Yes, the majority of Somalis were rural, uncivilized people like anywhere else on earth before about the 19th century. But there were always settled townsfolk Somalis on the coast and even in hinterland towns right into the early modern era.

You can even see this in the Futux al-Xabasha which speaks of "Adal" where there are Somali chieftains on level with the Imam Ahmad with one of them even being married to his eldest sister and being his brother in law with another seemingly Somali dude being his maternal cousin and these two guys ran the left and right flanks of his army with him running the center. The Futux also makes it clear that the Somalis had towns and were in areas like what is now Awdal and Hararghe as far back as 500 years ago. In fact, it names pretty much the exact same tribes Burton names 300 years later in the 19th century and we know live around that general area today.

 

[Clllam]

Yep. Like when Battuta mentions the Sultan of Xamar in 1331. He makes it clear that this Sultan knew how to read and write and was a "Barbara" who are dark-skinned, Shafi'i Muslims who herd camels and sheep while living from Saylac down to around Xamar according to him (obviously Somalis) but we natively know close to nothing about this Sultan. His name is nowhere to be found because Xamar's historical texts have mostly been lost. Very sad.



Yes, the majority of Somalis were rural, uncivilized people like anywhere else on earth before about the 19th century. But there were always settled townsfolk Somalis on the coast and even in hinterland towns right into the early modern era.

You can even see this in the Futux al-Xabasha which speaks of "Adal" where there are Somali chieftains on level with the Imam Ahmad with one of them even being married to his eldest sister and being his brother in law with another seemingly Somali dude being his maternal cousin and these two guys ran the left and right flanks of his army with him running the center. The Futux also makes it clear that the Somalis had towns and were in areas like what is now Awdal and Hararghe as far back as 500 years ago. In fact, it names pretty much the exact same tribes Burton names 300 years later in the 19th century and we know live around that general area today.

I think it’s all buried beneath the earth. They talked of ‘palaces with eunuchs, forts and walls, buildings 5 stories high, and big domed mosques with cylindrical minarets‘. Lets remember that da Gama wrote this, so he couldn’t have been exaggerating what they saw as an infidel realm.

Lets tell that to the current population who seemingly don’t know that such a Xamar existed lol.

 

[Som]

What sort of power did they posses in somali populated regions. I’ve been reading some papers on the recent discoveries in nugaal and the supposed himyarite/sabean scripts discovered there in an enclosure. I would like to know some more information on this...or is it to early to ask such a question?

They were mainly traders, there's no evidence of them ruling Somalia. Even in Ethiopia the Sabean/Himyarite influence is exaggerated. They influenced habeshas but didn't stay long and got quickly absorbed.

 

[Som]

Anyway I have a suugo history theory about the Sabean scripts. I think it's unlikely that sabeans wandered in the interior areas of the northern Somali peninsula. They probably just stayed in coastal areas and conducted trade with natives. There is some possibility that some native somalis adopted their script just like Habeshas did in Ethiopia

 

[Som]

Imagine what would be known had there been native sources. This is why I’m particularly interested in those inscriptions, much information could be uncovered about specific events.
The same problem is also present with the ajuran and adal empires, not much was written by themselves but rather by the Abyssinians and europeans.

Somalia is very under researched. The siad barre government started to do some good work in the right direction, they funded research and even invited archeologists to explore some areas. I think somalis played a huge role in trade, there's no Arab presence in somalia except for benadiris and we know that many other cities besides Xamar were pretty developed. Zeila, Berbera, Bosaso have much potential when it comes to archeology.
Even the internal areas have much potential, Saada mire did some great research there, of we dig stuff we would probably find more ancient ruins

 

[Clllam]

Anyway I have a suugo history theory about the Sabean scripts. I think it's unlikely that sabeans wandered in the interior areas of the northern Somali peninsula. They probably just stayed in coastal areas and conducted trade with natives. There is some possibility that some native somalis adopted their script just like Habeshas did in Ethiopia

Yeah that was what I was thinking too. Although those areas apparently used to be green so we must find many sites under the sand.