The Nilo-Saharan Background of Chadic

[Apollo]

Interesting paper I stumbled upon, worth the read for the Suugo Scientists here:
http://sal.research.pdx.edu/PDF/S11Ehret.pdf

TL;DR:
- Berber is the closest branch to Chadic linguistically in Afro-Asiatic. They form a Chado-Berber branch.
- Strong evidence of Nilo-Saharan peoples language shifting into a proto-Berber language (Chadic / Chado-Berber).

PS. Christopher Ehret is one of the best Africanists out there.

@SOMALI GENERAL @Nilotufian @James Dahl @Grant @geeljire madaxweyne

 

[James Dahl]

A relationship between Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic makes a lot of sense, my theory on the Green Sahara has both forming in the same rough area.

 

[Apollo]

A relationship between Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic makes a lot of sense, my theory on the Green Sahara has both forming in the same rough area.

It is especially evident in Chadic and probably to a lesser degree in Cushitic and Omotic.

I doubt there are substantial traces of Nilo-Saharan linguistically in Berber, Egyptian, and Semitic.

 

[James Dahl]

Why do you doubt?

 

[CaliTedesse]

Wow this is very interesting

 

[Apollo]

Why do you doubt?

Chadic groups appear autosomally like Nilo-Saharan peoples, see Tishkoff's study and look at the cluster Ks right before Nilo-Saharans and Chadics split-off, they are the same (especially those in Chad). The more numerous and well-known Hausa Chadics are more like a mixture between autosomal Chadics and regular Nigerians (Niger-Congo).

Also, significantly more connection with Nilo-Saharan is found in the Chadic branch and not so much in the others.

The ethnogenesis of Chadic seems to be: Northern Afro-Asiatic men (R1b especially) integrating into a Nilo-Saharan population when Lake Chad was massive (see the Lake Mega-Chad theories).

Even though R1b is not genuinely Afro-Asiatic. It became Afro-Asiaticized by Berbers having minor links with Sardinians/Italians.

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Chadic groups appear autosomally like Nilo-Saharan peoples, see Tishkoff's study and look at the cluster Ks right before Nilo-Saharans and Chadics split-off, they are the same (especially those in Chad). The more numerous and well-known Hausa Chadics are more like a mixture between autosomal Chadics and regular Nigerians (Niger-Congo).

Also, significantly more connection with Nilo-Saharan is found in the Chadic branch and not so much in the others.

The ethnogenesis of Chadic seems to be: Northern Afro-Asiatic men (R1b especially) integrating into a Nilo-Saharan population when Lake Chad was massive (see the Lake Mega-Chad theories).

Even though R1b is not genuinely Afro-Asiatic. It became Afro-Asiaticized by Berbers having minor links with Sardinians/Italians.

So they are basically the R1b versions of Cushites.

 

[madaxweyne]

they look mostly black to me


they dont seem to bear any physical cultural similarities with the rest of
the afro Asiatic world , genetically they maybe Berber
but they are completely engulfed by the nilotes

 

[Apollo]

they look mostly black to me


they dont seem to bear any physical cultural similarities with the rest of
the afro Asiatic world , genetically they maybe Berber
but they are completely engulfed by the nilotes

They do still have some original Afro-Asiatic cultural things (many of them are nomadic rather than farmers etc) and their language isn't a true creole/pidgin but is grammatically and structurally Afro-Asiatic.

They are an interesting oddity within Afro-Asiatic.

Race doesn't always match language families completely. Look at Hungarians, they don't look like the other Uralic speakers. Or Anatolian Turks vs the other Turkic groups.

 

[aydurus abdi]

Chadic groups appear autosomally like Nilo-Saharan peoples, see Tishkoff's study and look at the cluster Ks right before Nilo-Saharans and Chadics split-off, they are the same (especially those in Chad). The more numerous and well-known Hausa Chadics are more like a mixture between autosomal Chadics and regular Nigerians (Niger-Congo).

Also, significantly more connection with Nilo-Saharan is found in the Chadic branch and not so much in the others.

The ethnogenesis of Chadic seems to be: Northern Afro-Asiatic men (R1b especially) integrating into a Nilo-Saharan population when Lake Chad was massive (see the Lake Mega-Chad theories).

Even though R1b is not genuinely Afro-Asiatic. It became Afro-Asiaticized by Berbers having minor links with Sardinians/Italians.

there is even a big percentage of j1 in sudanese people, which I always thought came from invading arab forces. But it has infact been proven to come from the nilotic speaking nubian people. this hg is the biggest iin nubians. this confused me for a while. Why so many euroasian hgs carried by people who look black?

 

[Apollo]

there is even a big percentage of j1 in sudanese people, which I always thought came from invading arab forces. But it has infact been proven to come from the nilotic speaking nubian people. this hg is the biggest iin nubians. this confused me for a while. Why so many euroasian hgs carried by people who look black?

Paternal haplogroups are less reliable when it comes to overall race.

People have fewer male ancestors than they do female ancestors. One alpha male can impregnate hundreds of women and form a tribe while women are limited to a handful of children (biological limit).

 

[aydurus abdi]

Paternal haplogroups are less reliable when it comes to overall race.

People have fewer male ancestors than they do female ancestors. One alpha male can impregnate hundreds of women and form a tribe while women are limited to a handful of children (biological limit).

but why did those nubians adopt a nilotic language? rather than an afroasiatic language?

 

[Apollo]

but why did those nubians adopt a nilotic language? rather than an afroasiatic language?

Conquered.

They used to speak an Afro-Asiatic language before that.

 

[aydurus abdi]

Conquered.

They used to speak an Afro-Asiatic language before that.

makes sence. lakiin saxiib while we are on the topic I want to ask you about the european claim to ancient egypt through tutankhamoun. He was tested and belonged to r1b which is mostly common in western europeans. But my theory is that he belonged to the r-v88 african version. I think chadic people have the strongest claim to ancient egypt. There was a study I saw where they tested inhabitants in few oasis in northern egypt. I dont remember where I found the study. But it showed that r-v88 was the biggest.

Think about it. if ancient egyptians where expelled the most probable migration route would be along the nile to sudan. And guess what there are chadic people in sudan. Even those chadics in west africa claim to have migrated from east in sudan. Some linguistic studies have also shown that the chadic language have strong similarities to coptic. I also have to mention the tradiastonal hausa boxing style that has been likened to ancient egyptian boxing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambe#Origin_theories

Whats your take on this?

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

makes sence. lakiin saxiib while we are on the topic I want to ask you about the european claim to ancient egypt through tutankhamoun. He was tested and belonged to r1b which is mostly common in western europeans. But my theory is that he belonged to the r-v88 african version. I think chadic people have the strongest claim to ancient egypt. There was a study I saw where they tested inhabitants in few oasis in northern egypt. I dont remember where I found the study. But it showed that r-v88 was the biggest.

Think about it. if ancient egyptians where expelled the most probable migration route would be along the nile to sudan. And guess what there are chadic people in sudan. Even those chadics in west africa claim to have migrated from east in sudan. Some linguistic studies have also shown that the chadic language have strong similarities to coptic. I also have to mention the tradiastonal hausa boxing style that has been likened to ancient egyptian boxing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambe#Origin_theories

Whats your take on this?

My take 8s Ancient Egypt was a very mixed place.

 

[madaxweyne]

Conquered.

They used to speak an Afro-Asiatic language before that.

Am sure they spoke cushitic like their beja cousins

 

[nine]

They do still have some original Afro-Asiatic cultural things (many of them are nomadic rather than farmers etc) and their language isn't a true creole/pidgin but is grammatically and structurally Afro-Asiatic.

They are an interesting oddity within Afro-Asiatic.

Race doesn't always match language families completely. Look at Hungarians, they don't look like the other Uralic speakers. Or Anatolian Turks vs the other Turkic groups.

I seen a few Chadians.

I think this is the block of people who look "similar" (not taking genetics into account)

-Somali
-Ethiopian
-Eritrean
-Sudanese
-Chad

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Keeysan]

How did this branch of nilosaharan languages reach north Algeria?

 

[Apollo]

I seen a few Chadians.

I think this is the block of people who look "similar" (not taking genetics into account)

-Somali
-Ethiopian
-Eritrean
-Sudanese
-Chad

Correct me if I'm wrong

I think you mean Toubous from Northern Chad. They speak a Nilo-Saharan language. Toubous have more Afro-Asiatic autosomal admixture than Chadic speakers who live a bit more South.

Study on the Toubou: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5142112/

 

[madaxweyne]

@Apollo
am pretty sure nubians are cushitic
infact racially and genetically their cushites

am almost done with my project and i included them aswell

their cushites with a lot more arab ancestry but i wouldnt call them arab
their more cushitic to me