1st century Nubian mercenary genome from Serbia (Roman Empire)

[Shimbiris]

@Shimbiris

The Hebrews and others in the Levant were depicted correctly and some of the Libyans were depicted as light as coastal Berbers.

How did the Egyptians perfectly represent the attire and hairstyles of Nilotics, if they didn't encounter them? Mere propaganda can't account for that level of accuracy.

Libyans were not all represented as lily white:

View attachment 199189

Syrians:

View attachment 199188

It wasn't always the case, obviously, but you can definitely see that they stylize and exaggerate groups' features. With Nubians it seems clear that they liked honing in on the more Nilotic elements among them or those of them with a more Nilotic appearance who, by the way, often still prove anything from Somali to Tigre admixed or more:

I grew up around a lot of them. They vary from looking very Nilotic shifted to looking like off-Saidi Masri or off-Khaleeji, to looking Somaloid or Habeshoid or generally Horneroid. And, believe it or not, some of the very Nilotic looking ones can still be very admixed. I still remember when almost a decade ago now a Sudani bro contacted me on 23andme and he looked very Madow and yet he was more MENA admixed than me and my Tigray friend.

I'm afraid all evidence points to Nubia and the Red Sea hills pretty much always being fairly admixed since the Neolithic at the very least. I find it hard to fathom that Horners (a screenshot of the Neolithic there) look fairly admixed and that clearly the early modern to current era inhabitants were fairly admixed and we also have medieval samples that seem fairly admixed but there was just some highly Dinka intermission around the Iron Age, which this clearly admixed sample belongs to, and the Bronze Age? Not buying it.

All future samples will likely show fairly admixed individuals ranging from being Somali-like to like Saidi Egyptian outliers. You might find some extremely Nilotic types but that was certainly not the norm, I'd reckon.

 

[Nilotic]

Does anyone have a theory explaining the adoption of a Nilo-Saharan language by the Nubians? Where do the Nara-Kunama fit into this?

 

[Periplus]

Can't lie, genetics is not my area of expertise.

A lot of this looks like Chinese to me tbh.

 

[Shimbiris]

Does anyone have a theory explaining the adoption of a Nilo-Saharan language by the Nubians? Where do the Nara-Kunama fit into this?

Sadly not very knowledgeable about this in particular but Nilo-Saharans and Cushites have been intermingling for thousands of years, my bro. Look at that source I shared earlier in the thread regarding linguistics. There is evidence of contact with Saharan languages in Sudan going back to at least 8,500 years ago.

The evidence that Proto-sahelian borrowed its words for “goat” from an already distinct ancestral beja language in the later seventh millennium6 supports the conclusion that the initial divergence of Proto-Cushitic into the Beja (North Cushitic) branch and Agäw-East-South-Cushitic branches began before 6500 BCE - History and the Testimony of Language by Christopher Ehret
​

There is even evidence that Waaqism partly has its roots in Nilo-Saharan contact:

According to Ehret, the religious beliefs of the proto-Cushites were a mixture of two distinct religious traditions. Probably as early as the seventh millennium BCE, the Cushites in parts of eastern Africa blended their traditional Afro-Asiatic religion with aspects of the religious tradition of their Sudanic neighbours. Specifically, they exchanged their belief in a clan deity with the Sudanic concept of "Divinity", expanding the use of the old Cushitic root for "sky" (waak'a) to also extend to "Divinity". However, they retained their older institution of a clan priest-chief (or *wap'er), with the *wap'er's religious duties now re-directed toward Divinity. The Cushites also retained the old Afrasian practice of ascribing unfortunate occurrences to maleficent spirits, but also sometimes viewed evil as Divine retribution. - The Civilizations of Africa: a History to 1800 by Christopher Ehret​

Not to mention the fact that Mesolithic Sudan clearly seems to have been inhabited by people carrying proto-Nilotic type mtDNA lineages and Y-DNA A-M13 which is tied to Nilotics and Proto-Nilotic ancestry, a Y-DNA marker that is still prominent in the Horn today and dominant among ethnic groups like the Beta Israel and Gedeos. There are even rare A-M13 Somalis I've seen among my own 23andme relations. Not to mention that craniometric data also aligns with the ancient haplogroup data on this.

Nilo-Saharans have been in Sudan and intermingling with the Cushites there for a long, long time. However they became established, Nubian speakers are just the latest in a long, long line of this interaction and interplay.

 

[Molotoff]

@Molotoff

We Wuz in the Balkans for nearly two thousand years.

Would be hilarious if a handful of racist Serbians are his descendants (no, E-V13 doesn't count). They have found African Roman mercenary descendants living today in England and even Norway before.

Lol well you do know serbs claim to be the oldest people on earth...

 

[Nilotic]

@Shimbiris

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the maternal profile of the modern Nubian population around 80% SSA? The Kulubnarti population was the complete opposite, so assuming that modern Nubians are their descendants in one form or another... what explains this inversion?

"Our point estimate of the proportion of West Eurasian-related ancestry deriving from females is 68%, with a 95% CI of 59–77% (Methods)."

 

[Yukon_Niner]

Lol well you do know serbs claim to be the oldest people on earth...

World je srbija n sheeeiiittt

Holy f*ck though are they annoying, you'll find them in YouTube comments arguing over asinine crap.

 

[Aurelian]

It would near impossible to change the stereotype of dinka-like ancients nubians.

You can't take the mindset of negroid Ancient Egyptians from some folks without them having some historical sources, the dinka nubians have more historical evidences to claim ancient nubia

 

[Molotoff]

World je srbija n sheeeiiittt

Holy f*ck though are they annoying, you'll find them in YouTube comments arguing over asinine crap.

Yes. Debates between Balkan people on the internet are brutal. LOL

 

[Nilotic]

@Shimbiris

Thanks a million for the source, mate. I really do appreciate it.

I found the data on the maternal profile of Sudanese Arabs from the source you provided. Here it is:


The frequency of the sub-Saharan Africa haplotypes among Arabs including Gaalien, Meseria and Arakien is 88.9%, while the frequency of the Eurasian haplotyes among them is 11.1%, the northern Africa haplogroups U6 and M1 are completely absent in this group. Haplogroup L6 was not observed in the sample analyzed.

 

[Apollo]

It would near impossible to change the stereotype of dinka-like ancients nubians.

You can't take the mindset of negroid Ancient Egyptians from some folks without them having some historical sources, the dinka nubians have more historical evidences to claim ancient nubia

They depicted themselves as looking like modern day Nubians though:

 

[Molotoff]

World je srbija n sheeeiiittt

Holy f*ck though are they annoying, you'll find them in YouTube comments arguing over asinine crap.

World je srbija n sheeeiiittt

Holy f*ck though are they annoying, you'll find them in YouTube comments arguing over asinine crap.

 

[Clllam]

World je srbija n sheeeiiittt

Holy f*ck though are they annoying, you'll find them in YouTube comments arguing over asinine crap.

I once saw 2 of them arguing, posting well over 30 or so comments on a German video over the most idiotic bs like dialects.

 

[Yukon_Niner]

Kkkkk I remember that video.

Not gonna lie 99% of my knowledge to do with Skanderbeg, Illyrians and Croats being nazis comes from random balkan nationalists arguing on the internet shit has me laughing for hours

I once saw 2 of them arguing, posting well over 30 or so comments on a German video over the most idiotic bs like dialects.

It's worse when you realise most of the time it's basically the same language

Worst I've personally seen reached 200 comments and was about some random historic figure. It ended up ending with Serbs calling albanian's caucus migrants who never had any civilization.

 

[-adobe_7853]

Can we please stop this false meme that before Islam Nubians and North Sudan were like Dinkas:

No one actually makes this argument except pan Africanist who claim every civilization.

nilotes come from South Sudan and western Kenya and cushites come from southern Egypt and northern Sudan.

 

[Molotoff]

Kkkkk I remember that video.

Not gonna lie 99% of my knowledge to do with Skanderbeg, Illyrians and Croats being nazis comes from random balkan nationalists arguing on the internet shit has me laughing for hours


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It's worse when you realise most of the time it's basically the same language

Worst I've personally seen reached 200 comments and was about some random historic figure. It ended up ending with Serbs calling albanian's caucus migrants who never had any civilization.

Loool it is so toxic. On a whole another level.

 

[The alchemist]

I wouldn't say it is particularly common, but it is specifically found in Somalis as well.

https://yfull.com/mtree/L2a1j/

It’s not rare, not common either. I have 4 Somalis with that one in my 23andMe list and the mtDNA set is diverse where 4 per subclade is normal if we exclude the couple of clades that takes 20+ people.

Doesn’t this outlier exist in the same time frame as the upper margin of the earlier portion in terms of age with the Kulubnarti cemetery people? That individual likely traces his ancestry among the non-Kulubnarti gene pool and we can already see this PCA clustering is ubiquitous among the ancient Northern Sudanese.

It’s important to note, this pre-print had one northern Levantine proxy and the mercenary did not take additional Levantine ancestry, only a one-way model (as mentioned) with those early Christian Nubians. Furthermore looking at the admixture on the supplementary file, they sized the genetic makeup of the mercenary around 40% Anatolian neolithic-related (stand-in for Levantine-like ancestry), approximately 40% SSA and something gray which they haven’t stated what is specifically.

Looking into it, what’s peculiar is the Levantine outlier individual who had an affinity to people of the Northern Levant and Eastern Anatolian did not carry the gray admixture color, and we know that this gray component, among all the studied samples, only existed with the Nubian mercenary and we know it’s a Eurasian component following basic heuristics. Since they never specified what it stands for and we deduce that no other people on the study carry it, even the Levantine, we can assume it is a signature of the North African cline.

I skimmed this quickly, someone fact-check if you have already an adequate grasp on this fucking thing.

But man, the guy was a long way from home. : )

 

[BoltKing]

Doesn’t this outlier exist in the same time frame as the upper margin of the earlier portion in terms of age with the Kulubnarti cemetery people? That individual likely traces his ancestry among the non-Kulubnarti gene pool and we can already see this PCA clustering is ubiquitous among the ancient Northern Sudanese.

The oldest samples from Kulubnarti are from ~650CE I believe (that's the earliest date for Christian Burials at the site) and this individual from Serbia was dated to ~105CE.

 

[Moholin01]

Hmm, my only gripe with your statements, abowe, is R1b-V88 among Chadics. Isn't it lately more plausible that it came via the Balkans into the Middle-East and then via the Levant into Northeast Africa? Chadic is closest, seemingly, to Egyptian. Some suggest they even share a Chado-Egyptian node and R1b-V88's high frequency among groups like Siwans makes me think it was once strong in parts of Egypt/Sudan that were Chadic speaking and neighboring their close linguistic relatives in Masr and that's where R1b-V88 comes from rather than via the Iberian Peninsula and Berbers whom R1b-V88 isn't very common among at all outside of Egypt residing Siwans as far as I know?

That being said your overall point still stands. There are West-African Chadic speakers like Hausas who are 90-95%+ SSA and yet their Y-DNA is R1b-V88.

Yeah, the R1b-v88 most likely came from Eastern Mediterranean like the T-L208 in Somalis. The Varna king (T-L208) had attendants that were r1b-v88.

In fact, I'd argue that they took similar routes up until the Levant, where T-L208 split off and went into Egypt, Arabia and the Mesopotamia, while R1b crossed the Mediterranean or went through the Levant and continued into North Africa/maghreb

 

[Apollo]

@Shimbiris

The Hebrews and others in the Levant were depicted correctly and some of the Libyans were depicted as light as coastal Berbers.

How did the Egyptians perfectly represent the attire and hairstyles of Nilotics, if they didn't encounter them? Mere propaganda can't account for that level of accuracy.

Libyans were not all represented as lily white:

View attachment 199189

Syrians:

View attachment 199188

This is what I meant:

Ancient Egyptians vs Levantines in their art:

Lol, Ancient Egyptians painted like a 10 shade difference between them and the Semites, which I highly doubt was realistic. Just their ''othering outsiders'' effect.

Even if we don't use Coptic Egyptians as the closest to Ancient Egyptians (controversial for some), but instead Egyptian Muslims vs Palestinians today, the skin tone difference is extremely minimal, arguably even the same.