I pasted a file I made into vahaduo.GitHub.io custom PCAWhere is this PCA calculator located? Can you run a 23&me file through it?
You need your G25 coordinates for it, which you can get with your 23andMe file and £20
I pasted a file I made into vahaduo.GitHub.io custom PCAWhere is this PCA calculator located? Can you run a 23&me file through it?
Its hard to say because they don't specify which samples it was identical too, either way, the early samples had a ton of Mota ancestry which i don't expect to find in Sudan, so I doubt its identical like the authors said.I heard that those early Cushitic nomads were even more Eurasian shifted than modern Horn African populations.
Not true, 14,000 year old remains in Sudan (Al Khiday) cluster with lower Nubians who cluster with ancient upper Egyptians and Afro-Asiatic Horners, the so-called "Eurasian" or "Levantine" affinity is already present in NE Africa during the Mesolithic, these people undoubtedly had little to no Natufian ancestry given their age.the Eurasian component is undoubtedly Levantine in origin.
I think they're talking about it from the lens of the Kerman sample being the "source". As in, remove the Mota, and they're indistinguishable.Its hard to say because they don't specify which samples it was identical too, either way, the early samples had a ton of Mota ancestry which i don't expect to find in Sudan, so I doubt its identical like the authors said.
You need to put me on, broski. Where are these anthropometric studies on Ancient Sudan found?Not true, 14,000 year old remains in Sudan (Al Khiday) cluster with lower Nubians who cluster with ancient upper Egyptians and Afro-Asiatic Horners, the so-called "Eurasian" or "Levantine" affinity is already present in NE Africa during the Mesolithic, these people undoubtedly had little to no Natufian ancestry given their age.
The same can't be said for the South Cushites, though, can it? It'd make sense if we were Levantine in lineage (E-M293 and whatnot) until like 4000-5000 years ago, wouldn't it?Think about the phylogeny of the most important lineages on our Cushitic component (E-M215 and all of its subclades and its ancestors), its phylogeny is nearly entirely NE African, not Levantine.
You need to put me on, broski. Where are these anthropometric studies on Ancient Sudan found?
I don't get what you mean, the E lineages found in Natufians were either African in origin or their parent clade was African, North East African to be specific. The phylogeny of much of those E lineages are completely NE African.The same can't be said for the South Cushites, though, can it? It'd make sense if we were Levantine in lineage (E-M293 and whatnot) until like 4000-5000 years ago, wouldn't it?
Edit: I mean to say E-Z827 subclades and their presence in Natufians.
Is there a Nilotic reference point to compare with these pre and Meso-Neolithic samples? How are you sure it's SSA shifted and not something else?View attachment 228905
JSA is Jebel Sahaba, this is a very Sub-Saharan like remain which doesn't cluster very closely with Lower Nubians and ancient Egyptians.
And the Al-Khiday sample is likely ancestral to us, making us not Levantine, but North African in origin. I see. I wonder, though, why they show such genetic affinities with proceeding Levantine populations and why we aren't better modelled by, say, Dinka + Egyptian than Dinka + Levantine.AKH is Al Khiday, its like 13-14,000 years old, so it couldn't have had Neolithic Levantine ancestry, and theres nothing indicating Natufians settling in Africa, esp at this time, so this is a native people that shows affinities to Nubians such as Kerma, A group, Christian Period Nubians etc... all of these groups have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry but its presence in NE Africa predates the existence of the Natufians IMO.
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were the proto somalis living kerma?Where is Apollo? :'(
We know its SSA-like because Jebel Sahaba was most similar to SSA groups and shows little affinities to Afro-Asiatic speakers in North Africa and the HOA.Is there a Nilotic reference point to compare with these pre and Meso-Neolithic samples? How are you sure it's SSA shifted and not something else?
Well maybe not this exact sample but something very similar to it yes.And the Al-Khiday sample is likely ancestral to us, making us not Levantine, but North African in origin.
See above. We also have some Neolithic Levantine and maybe Chalcolithic Levantine, but the Natufian we score on top of the other stuff I just mentioned is largely Egyptian in origin, just closely related to Natufians, if you want me to say why/how i think this happened feel free to ask.I wonder, though, why they show such genetic affinities with proceeding Levantine populations
Well modern Egyptians have never been used as a source of ancestry for Horners in any study AFAIK but they likely have too much Iranian and Anatolian Farmer ancestry too work for us, the Egyptians I'm talking about are 10,000+ years old btw, not 200 lol, so we'd need early Egyptian DNA. The late period Egyptian samples worked as a source of ancestry for Horners, better than Arabians, they didn't compare with a Levantine source, but Egyptians CAN work as a source for us.why we aren't better modelled by, say, Dinka + Egyptian than Dinka + Levantine.
I wouldn't call them proto-Somalis, much more like distant cousins. Still, we'll have to wait for the full study to be published.were the proto somalis living kerma?
Thanks for clearing this up, mate. I was looking for something exactly like the article you linked.We know its SSA-like because Jebel Sahaba was most similar to SSA groups and shows little affinities to Afro-Asiatic speakers in North Africa and the HOA.
Idk if there was a Nilotic ref, they used some SE Africans who would have tons of Nilotic so yh, close enough imo
Read this
Makes sense. I think this, on top of the publication of the 105CE sample, should really clear things up.Well maybe not this exact sample but something very similar to it yes.
The way i see it, there would have been a metapopulation in Paleolithic/Mesolithic North Africa, Arabia and the Levant with all of these regions being rich Basal Eurasian-like + Common West Eurasian-like + MSA SSA-like.
Those 3 ancestries account for pretty much all of the genomes of Natufians and Taforalt/IBM, just in different proportions, Al Khiday and some of Egyptian/Sudanese remains would have been a part of this metapopulation IMO.
You can kinda see this in the fact that Natufian/Taf work as sources of ancesty for North Africans and East Africans, despite the fact there is no strong evidence for a movement of Iberomaurisians or Natufians into NE Africa, but something related to both of those groups clearly existed in NE Africa given how much Natufian/Taf we all score, and the existence of 14,000 year old Sudanis showing strong affinities with Natufian/Taf rich populations. So we don't have much literal Natufian ancestry, just something closely related to it that was in Egypt/North Sudan. I doubt Natufians are ancestral to anyone outside of the Neolithic Levantines and anyone descended from them, this includes Arabians, Lazaradis has a tree where he shows Arabian HG(this is believed to be the source of the direct Natufian-like input) as being descended from whatever Natufians are descended from, even though they can be modelled as Natufian, so not literally Natufians.
There was no doubt in my mind that they were Egyptian as the admixture event did happen in that area, but I thought they were very recent immigrants and entirely Natufian lol. Please elaborate if you can, bro.See above. We also have some Neolithic Levantine and maybe Chalcolithic Levantine, but the Natufian we score on top of the other stuff I just mentioned is largely Egyptian in origin, just closely related to Natufians, if you want me to say why/how i think this happened feel free to ask.
There is this Middle Kingdom Egyptian K13+K36 reconstruction sample, and he wasn't the best fit either, I think. I'll check rn:Well modern Egyptians have never been used as a source of ancestry for Horners in any study AFAIK but they likely have too much Iranian and Anatolian Farmer ancestry too work for us, the Egyptians I'm talking about are 10,000+ years old btw, not 200 lol, so we'd need early Egyptian DNA. The late period Egyptian samples worked as a source of ancestry for Horners, better than Arabians, they didn't compare with a Levantine source, but Egyptians CAN work as a source for us.
Think of Natufian as a stand-in, we don't have Paleolithic or Mesolithic DNA from Egypt, so the Natufians are the next best thing. The genetic relationship between populations across North Africa and the Levant would have been similar modern Afro Asiatic speakers in the Horn of Africa, purely in the sense that they would have largely been made up of the same stuff just in different proportions, just varying amounts of Cushitic, Yemeni/Sabean and Omotic. Focusing on the lions share of the ancestry in Horners, Eritreans and Somalis aren't differentiated by the presence of different components but mostly due to variance in proportions, with Eritreans having the most Yemeni and Somalis the most Cushitic but both groups still have all of those ancestries. I think Mesolithic NA would have been the same.There was no doubt in my mind that they were Egyptian as the admixture event did happen in that area, but I thought they were very recent immigrants and entirely Natufian lol. Please elaborate if you can, bro.
If your talking about the M1a1 carrier be careful with that sample, from what i remember its fits were terrible and distances very high with modern and late period Egyptians, i don't think its possible to "reconstruct" ancient DNA using just mtDNA data alone.There is this Middle Kingdom Egyptian K13+K36 reconstruction sample, and he wasn't the best fit either, I think. I'll check rn:
Okay, that makes everything so much clearer. Drawing parallels with modern Horn African populations was smart lol, idk why I struggled to see it that way beforehand. I'll read up more on these components. Thanks a lot.Think of Natufian as a stand-in, we don't have Paleolithic or Mesolithic DNA from Egypt, so the Natufians are the next best thing. The genetic relationship between populations across North Africa and the Levant would have been similar modern Afro Asiatic speakers in the Horn of Africa, purely in the sense that they would have largely been made up of the same stuff just in different proportions, just varying amounts of Cushitic, Yemeni/Sabean and Omotic. Focusing on the lions share of the ancestry in Horners, Eritreans and Somalis aren't differentiated by the presence of different components but mostly due to variance in proportions, with Eritreans having the most Yemeni and Somalis the most Cushitic but both groups still have all of those ancestries. I think Mesolithic NA would have been the same.
Those ancestries that they would have shared would have been Basal Eurasian + Common West Eurasian + MSA(Middle Stone Age) SSA-like, this is literally what the Natufians and IBM/Taf is, just varying proportions, Natufians were like 6-8% SSA-like, and Taf was 35-45% SSA-like, wildly different amounts but its shared between them, same with their West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian ancestry.
A typical model for Natufians = Dzudzuana + IBM + Mota
A typical model for Taf = Dzudzuana + ANA
These are examples of commonly cited models for those groups, Dzudzuana is an important source (again, probably not literally) of ancestry for both the Natufians and IBM, so we can already see this is one layer of ancestry they share. The original model for IBM was Natufian + recent SSA groups, so we can see both groups can be modelled using each other aswell as common sources (Dzudzuana + Mota). I think this shows that most of their ancestries will be shared but in differing amounts. I think Paleo/Meso Egypt would have been a part of the aforementioned metapopulation which allows Natufians to be used as a source of our ancestry because they are also members of that metapopulation.
Wow lol. I should really check where I get my samples from. I had no idea whatsoever of the progress, but trusted it was scientifically sound blindly. I'll go ahead and delete that sample from my files.If your talking about the M1a1 carrier be careful with that sample, from what i remember its fits were terrible and distances very high with modern and late period Egyptians, i don't think its possible to "reconstruct" ancient DNA using just mtDNA data alone.
No problem, feel free to ask away.Okay, that makes everything so much clearer. Drawing parallels with modern Horn African populations was smart lol, idk why I struggled to see it that way beforehand. I'll read up more on these components. Thanks a lot.
I'm not saying its useless, don't delete it just be cautious is all, I don't expect MK ancient Egyptians to be radically different from those samples but our Egyptian-like ancestry won't be represented well by Dynastic Egyptians simply because it would have spread from Lower Nubia and would have retained its Mesolithic profile better than Dynastic Egyptians who would have had a lot more Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Levantine. When i say we have Egyptian ancestry instead of Levantine, I mean moreso Mesolithic/Paleolithic Egyptian, we might have some Dynastic Egyptian ancestry but i doubt its appreciable tbh, so MK samples aren't ideal for us.Wow lol. I should really check where I get my samples from. I had no idea whatsoever of the progress, but trusted it was scientifically sound blindly. I'll go ahead and delete that sample from my files.
Al-Khiday was likely a semi-sedentary hunter-gatherer that was Natufian-like elevated Iberomaursian individual by the samples' unique craniofacial morphology within the edge of the Neolithic metric agglomeration highlighting external factors of in-situ endemic region-specific genetic profile (an understated crucial cultural/traditional and social precursor to the cultural undercurrent horizon in pre-history into historical age of Nile-Valley). Still, comparatively very drifted from Jebel Sahaba contemporaries in Lower Nubia that seem very distinct from all the Neolithic Lower Nubians of later times. I'm certain it was once the dominant Northeast African Eurasian rich in the terminal Pleistocene with strong autosomal continuity into the early Neolithic days of the broader region. But there was a clear Neolithic diffusion of technology and subsistence strategy markers that indicate demic geneflow from the Levant, and for the most part, this Al-Khiday-type took a secondary stage in autosomal ratio at some point down the line of thousands of years. You can see the Holecence food-producing samples from Nubia and Egypt forming a tighter morphological cluster shifting away from the Upper Nubia positioned hunter-gatherer in slight relative respect. This can mean a homogenizing introduction of Neolithic farmers with gracile, less robust phenotypic characteristics influenced a strong selection of common trait potentiality irrespective of the variation of Sub-Saharan African ancestry contained in those samples. We can further infer a good backed statement that one can draw a base of continuity from a Northeast African source toward early Egyptian population, and other groups such as the Cushitic, without needing a complete population replacement to represent a West Asian genetic frequency distribution/radiation.Not true, 14,000 year old remains in Sudan (Al Khiday) cluster with lower Nubians who cluster with ancient upper Egyptians and Afro-Asiatic Horners, the so-called "Eurasian" or "Levantine" affinity is already present in NE Africa during the Mesolithic, these people undoubtedly had little to no Natufian ancestry given their age.
Think about the phylogeny of the most important lineages on our Cushitic component (E-M215 and all of its subclades and its ancestors), its phylogeny is nearly entirely NE African, not Levantine.
How did he go about doing this?What do you make of this ES reconstruction a friend of mine made? What limitations would reconstructing the ES component strictly from the DNA of modern Somalis have?