A close friend and his cousins from Sudan got T-L208!

[NidarNidar]

It went opposite direction too. From Africa to Europe. R1b-V88 cattle herders from the Near East managed to get to Western Europe via North Africa, probably crossing at Gibraltar. The oldest known R1b-V88 sample in Europe is a 7,100 year-old from the Catalan Pyrenees tested by Haak et al. 2015 and whose autosomal DNA matched that of other Neolithic farmers, without a trace of Steppe ancestry!

The European R1b and African split 17,000 years ago, it looks like T arrived along the Natufian migration and then followed by R1b shortly after, from the papers I've read.

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

Interesting what’s the date of that sample in BCE?

9-6 BCE

 

[Step a side]

9-6 BCE

That’s not really old is it?

 

[Step a side]

The European R1b and African split 17,000 years ago, it looks like T arrived along the Natufian migration and then followed by R1b shortly after, from the papers I've read.

Yes T initially is Middle Eastern and the oldest sample were found among the Levant Neolithic. T and J1 have migrated almost everywhere together. They entered Africa via Egypt. They entered Europe via Anatolia. Because the T1a in Europe is mostly found in the Mediterranean region there is a possibility that the bulk of it entered Europe via North Africa. These lineages are T1a1a1a1 (CTS2214), T1a1a1b (Y6671), T1a1a2 (Y16897), T1a2a1 (Y6055) and T1a2b1 (P322). Little data is available for North Africa, but some of these subclades have been confirmed in Egypt (Y6671>Y12643), Libya (Y6671>Y22559) and Morocco (Y6671>Y12643). Modern Southern Egyptians have good amount of T1a as well.

 

[The alchemist]

Some YDNA T was found among the EEF that reached North Africa from Iberia.

Those ancient North African pastoralists had haplogroup T and sourced via the Levant. Going into speculation in a minor-theoretic sense, the pastoralists spread the haplogroup T to the widest extent, springing from the Levant in the early Neolithic. Whatever Iberian haplogroups the North Africans had, were mostly concentrated there since they came with settled farmer groups.

 

[Step a side]

View attachment 284598
Those ancient North African pastoralists had haplogroup T and sourced via the Levant. Going into speculation in a minor-theoretic sense, the pastoralists spread the haplogroup T to the widest extent, springing from the Levant in the early Neolithic. Whatever Iberian haplogroups the North Africans had, were mostly concentrated there since they came with settled farmer groups.

Yeh it’s obvious everything returns back to the source which is the Middle East. The main problem I have with these migration patterns is that Africa is under studied. North Africa could have been the bridge from the Middle East to Europe. It’s difficult to differentiate which ones went Europe via Anatolia and which lineage went Europe via North Africa

 

[The alchemist]

Yeh it’s obvious everything returns back to the source which is the Middle East. The main problem I have with these migration patterns is that Africa is under studied. North Africa could have been the bridge from the Middle East to Europe. It’s difficult to differentiate which ones went Europe via Anatolia and which lineage went Europe via North Africa

Haplogroup T is not continually coherent from its distributional extent and with all the mutational diversity. It has frequencies at a small scale everywhere. For a chance at getting any explanatory strength at a wide scale, one requires several models that not only explain things in their independent formations but need suppositional models to fill in the gaps of migrational patterns on the highly speculatory ground to imagine hypothetical regional and local demographic processes.

I think cooking up a training model setting those AI tools to work to run simulations would be useful. But one would need to set several parameters within a wide set of parameters to run up the complexity with meaningful conditions.

I imagine there need to be several macro events tied to specific time-conditioned lesser-broad processes that today can't be easily traced but can be the center of the spread. I think haplogroup T was in its history very susceptible to demographic disruption. Or maybe, it had a very wide consistent coverage but then was cut off on many sides by the virality of other haplogroups. These things need to be interdisciplinary.

 

[Step a side]

Haplogroup T is not continually coherent from its distributional extent and with all the mutational diversity. It has frequencies at a small scale everywhere. For a chance at getting any explanatory strength at a wide scale, one requires several models that not only explain things in their independent formations but need suppositional models to fill in the gaps of migrational patterns on the highly speculatory ground to imagine hypothetical regional and local demographic processes.

I think cooking up a training model setting those AI tools to work to run simulations would be useful. But one would need to set several parameters within a wide set of parameters to run up the complexity with meaningful conditions.

I imagine there need to be several macro events tied to specific time-conditioned lesser-broad processes that today can't be easily traced but can be the center of the spread. I think haplogroup T was in its history very susceptible to demographic disruption. Or maybe, it had a very wide consistent coverage but then was cut off on many sides by the virality of other haplogroups. These things need to be interdisciplinary.

Interesting! How would AI find out? Have they used it before in a similar scenario?

 

[The alchemist]

Interesting! How would AI find out? Have they used it before in a similar scenario?

Finding out is not the exact word. But hypothetical simulations that we can use a crutch. It would not give us the blue-print, only the means to gain value here and there that can inspire newer coherent models ideally. How to set in the data would be a challenge. You would need competent people that operate the technical aspect. I can see this happening in the future. We already have computation-heavy projects in the broader discipline.

 

[giire12]

The Zaghawa are not Nilotic and they don't reside in South Sudan; the Dinka and Nuer are the Nilo in Nilo-Saharan and the Zaghawa are the Saharan component.

Thanks for your info, since your probably are Nilotic, I would like to ask you this question.

He said to me his from Dafur and that Zaghawa do live in South sudan such as darfur. His ethinic group believe they are Arab Sudanese but he believes his Nilotic along the ethinic groups that resides with him like Masalit and Fur. I have many Zaghawa friends, some of them look like Massai others like Fur and Masalit all believed to be Nilotic groups. Physical appearance and Zaghawa language are thought to be Nilo saharan or songhay saharan. So could they be admixture of Nilotic and afro asiatic Saharan along Fur and Masalit? Also would they be considered Afro Asiatic, if so which group, cushatic/bereber/Semitic?

 

[Step a side]

Thanks for your info, since your probably are Nilotic, I would like to ask you this question.

He said to me his from Dafur and that Zaghawa do live in South sudan such as darfur. His ethinic group believe they are Arab Sudanese but he believes his Nilotic along the ethinic groups that resides with him like Masalit and Fur. I have many Zaghawa friends, some of them look like Massai others like Fur and Masalit all believed to be Nilotic groups. Physical appearance and Zaghawa language are thought to be Nilo saharan or songhay saharan. So could they be admixture of Nilotic and afro asiatic Saharan along Fur and Masalit? Also would they be considered Afro Asiatic, if so which group, cushatic/bereber/Semitic?

Darfur is west Sudan.

 

[Step a side]

Finding out is not the exact word. But hypothetical simulations that we can use a crutch. It would not give us the blue-print, only the means to gain value here and there that can inspire newer coherent models ideally. How to set in the data would be a challenge. You would need competent people that operate the technical aspect. I can see this happening in the future. We already have computation-heavy projects in the broader discipline.

Nice. AI will indeed change the way we view the world now which includes genetics and anthropology

 

[The alchemist]

Nice. AI will indeed change the way we view the world now which includes genetics and anthropology

I'm old-school. I will only view those things as tools. Though I agree we can leverage those tools and find new ways to explore the learning space.

 

[Step a side]

I'm old-school. I will only view those things as tools. Though I agree we can leverage those tools and find new ways to explore the learning space.

These tools will need data like you mentioned but Africa is not being studied as much. I wish coastal Eritrea, Sudan, Djibouti was given a chance. We know so much about Europe but hardly anything about Africa’s past especially the horn and Sudan which are the two regions tied to our past.

 

[giire12]

Darfur is west Sudan.

My mistake, I did not realise that there is a country name South Sudan, He said his from South of the North sudan, a place know as nayala and al tain that borders south sudan

 

[Step a side]

My mistake, I did not realise that there is a country name South Sudan, He said his from South of the North sudan, a place know as nayala and al tain that borders south sudan

Oh I see it on the map. He most likely similar to Masalit and Fur I believe but @Nilotic and @Nilote know better I believe. They Saharan with a touch of AA ancestry and Nilo Saharan but I could be wrong and feeling too lazy to check kkk

 

[The alchemist]

These tools will need data like you mentioned but Africa is not being studied as much. I wish coastal Eritrea, Sudan, Djibouti was given a chance. We know so much about Europe but hardly anything about Africa’s past especially the horn and Sudan which are the two regions tied to our past.

Data would be inferred from Asia as well but from contextual factors. That's why I said it would be tricky. One would set layers of input for a simulation.

 

[giire12]

Oh I see it on the map. He most likely similar to Masalit and Fur I believe but @Nilotic and @Nilote know better I believe. They Saharan with a touch of AA ancestry and Nilo Saharan but I could be wrong and feeling too lazy to check kkk

View attachment 284607

I see why he says from South, I always thought he meant South Sudan, from the map its actually part of North or precisely North West Sudan

 

[The alchemist]

Oh I see it on the map. He most likely similar to Masalit and Fur I believe but @Nilotic and @Nilote know better I believe. They Saharan with a touch of AA ancestry and Nilo Saharan but I could be wrong and feeling too lazy to check kkk

View attachment 284607

Zaghawa people got sizable non-Nilotic-like and West African-like DNA. Three datasets showed an average of 9.4%, 16%, and 19.3%.

There seems to have been something stable going on since in all the datasets, the average of Natufian ancestry was proportionally the same as the Iberomarusian ancestry. Maybe we can look at a population that mixed with the ancient Zaghawa ancestors that were half Natufian and half Iberomarusian? With perhaps something East African there as well. We can make it more complicated and say the Iberomaurisan types came with minor West African ancestry from the Niger area and mixed with some kind of Natufian and East African mix and then later additionally mixed with what later would become the rest of the Saharan of a Nilo-Saharan (genetic) extraction. Either way, it seems some proportional Taforalt and Natufian existed, and I doubt they mixed without East African ancestry accompanying the "Natufian" (not assuming this is a Cushitic since it is most likely way older, although we probably got a considerable degree of DNA from that type of mix).

Hm, would be a drag to answer questions for the latter. Please don't ask me questions about it.

 

[Step a side]

Zaghawa people got sizable non-Nilotic-like and West African-like DNA. Three datasets showed an average of 9.4%, 16%, and 19.3%.

There seems to have been something stable going on since in all the datasets, the average of Natufian ancestry was proportionally the same as the Iberomarusian ancestry. Maybe we can look at a population that mixed with the ancient Zaghawa ancestors that were half Natufian and half Iberomarusian? With perhaps something East African there as well. We can make it more complicated and say the Iberomaurisan types came with minor West African ancestry from the Niger area and mixed with some kind of Natufian and East African mix and then later additionally mixed with what later would become the rest of the Saharan of a Nilo-Saharan (genetic) extraction. Either way, it seems some proportional Taforalt and Natufian existed, and I doubt they mixed without East African ancestry accompanying the "Natufian" (not assuming this is a Cushitic since it is most likely way older, although we probably got a considerable degree of DNA from that type of mix).

Hm, would be a drag to answer questions for the latter. Please don't ask me questions about it.

Just one question what about the European like ancestry that was detected in the tobou?