Ancient eygptians, pastoral neoltihci and ev-12

[Midas]

Even what @Shimbiris and others have pointed out about certain pre-dynastic Egyptians strongly resembling Somalis cranially and likely phenotypically in general. I think even this ‘Cushitic substrata’ stuff is likely bs and that this was just the language of Upper Egypt that changed over the course of Egypt’s 4k year history after unification with Lower Egypt and the melding of languages over time. It could still possibly be viewed as a substrata in that sense I guess but not this ‘mass absorption’ of Cushitic speakers as they hypothesize.

A large part of the problem is that scholars use written language and Somali wasn’t written until the 1970s and then you’ve had over 30 years of state collapse so not a lot to work with. They are slowly coming to realize all of this though.

I agree the simialrties are way too much. I think the substrata is all that is left . The waaxa in that apprently coptic folk song is too similar to be a concidence. Also Waxaa which is a focus marker in somali which isn't found in other cushitic languages makes me think that somali because of its relativ isolation persevered a lot of anicent features of east cushtic. The suffix conjugation thing being found in eygptian is even more evidence.


Luckily anicent genetics moves fast. If it was just based off lingustics research it'd be decades before enough evidence was compiled . But with anicent genetics. I suspect we'll find predynastic eygptan samples that conclusively prove the connection within a decade

 

[TheLand]

I agree the simialrties are way too much. I think the substrata is all that is left . The waaxa in that apprently coptic folk song is too similar to be a concidence. Also Waxaa which is a focus marker in somali which isn't found in other cushitic languages makes me think that somali because of its relativ isolation persevered a lot of anicent features of east cushtic. The suffix conjugation thing being found in eygptian is even more evidence.


Luckily anicent genetics moves fast. If it was just based off lingustics research it'd be decades before enough evidence was compiled . But with anicent genetics. I suspect we'll find predynastic eygptan samples that conclusively prove the connection within a decade

Many of the pharaohs always struck me as very Cushitic looking. The full lips, oval shaped face and thin noses is a look you really only see in 1 region today. Some of these Eurocentric people try to claim that this was stylistic, even the reddish/brown paint they used to depict their skin tone. The problem with that is that the Egyptians believed that they needed to look as lifelike as possible so that their souls would recognize them and be able to return to their bodies in the afterlife. Zahi Hawas even said that the Egyptian looked exactly how they depicted themselves. I think you are right and genetics will eventually show it, I don’t see any other possibility.

 

[Midas]

Many of the pharaohs always struck me as very Cushitic looking. The full lips, oval shaped face and thin noses is a look you really only see in 1 region today. Some of these Eurocentric people try to claim that this was stylistic, even the reddish/brown paint they used to depict their skin tone. The problem with that is that the Egyptians believed that they needed to look as lifelike as possible so that their souls would recognize them and be able to return to their bodies in the afterlife. Zahi Hawas even said that the Egyptian looked exactly how they depicted themselves. I think you are right and genetics will eventually show it, I don’t see any other possibility.

I 100% agree.

I mean when you think about what are the odds that a folk song ( which by the way are used by lingusts when they are trying to find the oldest layers of a language since folk-songs along wifh place names and proverbs are the most resistant to change )
Somehow has not just a word but an entire phrase which is a part of the core vocabulary of Somali. And they use that phrase in the correct lexical position for it to make sense in Somali.

I think your looking at 1 in a million odds that this isn't the same language.

 

[TheLand]

I 100% agree.

I mean when you think about what are the odds that a folk song ( which by the way are used by lingusts when they are trying to find the oldest layers of a language since folk-songs along wifh place names and proverbs are the most resistant to change )
Somehow has not just a word but an entire phrase which is a part of the core vocabulary of Somali. And they use that phrase in the correct lexical position for it to make sense in Somali.

I think your looking at 1 in a million odds that this isn't the same language.

Yes any Somali speaker who listens to that is immediately creeped out. I almost had goosebumps from it

 

[Midas]

Yes any Somali speaker who listens to that is immediately creeped out. I almost had goosebumps from it

Wallahi me too

The lady who posted it is a bit of a hoep but she was spot on.

The fact that Somali hoteps were the closest to the truth all along is still blowing my mind.

 

[TheLand]

Wallahi me too

The lady who posted it is a bit of a hoep but she was spot on.

The fact that Somali hoteps were the closest to the truth all along is still blowing my mind.

I think where they go too far is claiming specifically Somalis were in Egypt or that ancient Egyptians were Somalis. Obviously back then there was no such thing as Somalis so it ends up sounding like hoteps but I think they had the right general idea.

 

[Midas]

I'm wondering how much we can use similar words to reconstruct the earliest layers of an east cushitic relegion.

One folk etymology that I think would be intresting to explore is the connection between ka in ancient eygptian which is the vital essence. And kac in somali which means to wake up. There pronunciations are the same according to a couple videos I watched of people pronuncing ka

I thinks its Especially intresting since there is this idea of the ka entering the body and "waking up "

 

[TheLand]

I'm wondering how much we can use similar words to reconstruct the earliest layers of an east cushitic relegion.

One folk etymology that I think would be intresting to explore is the connection between ka in ancient eygptian which is the vital essence. And kac in somali which means to wake up. There pronunciations are the same according to a couple videos I watched of people pronuncing ka

I thinks its Especially intresting since there is this idea of the ka entering the body and "waking up "

There is a Somali female name, Kaaha/Kaaho which means basically the same thing I believe. Now that I think about it there was also a paper posted here about some Egyptian queen and one of her hand maidens or whatever was called something like Kahanat, the paper speculated these were East Cushitic names. It meant beloved or something similar.

 

[Midas]

There is a Somali female name, Kaaha/Kaaho which means basically the same thing I believe. Now that I think about it there was also a paper posted here about some Egyptian queen and one of her hand maidens or whatever was called something like Kahanat, the paper speculated these were East Cushitic names. It meant beloved or something similar.

Theres also kaahin as well . I can only hope somebody complies a dictionary one day.

 

[KingKalbi]

think given how similar (near identical) Somalis look to Naqadans in cranioform

Somalis weren’t often described as being “near identical” to Naqadans, only Beja and North Ethio Semitic people were and only really in craniometric analyses.
In non metric analyses they often favour recent North Africans or they’re in between Horners and North Africans.

 

[KingKalbi]

The pastoral neolthic individuals in kenya date back 5 thousand years ago. They are also almost indistinguishable from somalis. It also probably wouldn't be a stretch to say these individuals left eygpt/sudan 2 thosuand years before this right ?

And if there was a pouplation that began to leave eygpt 7 thosuand years ago that is almost indistinguishable from somalis . Doesn't that imply that the mix we see now in somalis and the pastral neolithic individuals must go back a lot deeper than 7 thosuand years ago

If you look at the oldest PN samples they plot closest to Ethiopians/Eritreans. It’s around 55% West Eurasian related, whilst the other samples are 40-45% West Eurasian related. And there is little evidence for pastoralists settling East Africa 7000 years ago, what are you basing this claim on?

So no, I don’t think the Somali profile is 7000 years old or even 5000 years old, Cushites 5000 years ago were probably more similar to Ethiopians/Eritreans in Eurasian/SSA proportions, we know this because the earliest Nubians were physically the most Caucasoid and they became more and more Sub Saharan over time. A group Nubians were often described as being indistinguishable from predynastic Upper Egyptians, the same can’t be said for any other Nubian population.
The earliest Kermans were the most caucasoid amongst all the kerman samples and they became more and more SSA-like over time. You can see this in this analysis.

KAW is an early Kerman sample and KER is a later one. As you can see KAW is shifted towards Egyptians.

 

[KingKalbi]

It also has me asking questions about how old the west eurasian ancestry in us is .

because the description people use is naftufian-like. Which is what they also use to describe the eurasia ancestry in iberomonsurians. If this ancestry was present in these north Africans from 15 thosuand years ago. Then when exactly did it come in ? Espciaally becuase there's a barrier between pouplations 20,000 -25000 when the last glacial maxium period happened and basically no travel.

Does that mean this euraisan ancestry was already present 25,000 years ago ? If so when did it actually enter africa ? 26,000 years ago ? 30,000 ago ?

Some of the Eurasian ancestry in North and East Africans has been present since the very beginning IMO. Since Eurasian ancestry evolved.

I think ANA populations who would’ve been on the SSA-like—Eurasian cline admixed with back migrant Eurasian populations(WHG-like? Source of U6) who settled in North Africa around 30,000 years ago and this produced Palaeolithic North Africans.

Our Eurasian ancestry imo is largely derived from Paleolithic Egyptians/Sudanis and Eastern Mediterranean/Middle eastern farmers

We have 14,000 year old remains from Sudan called Al khiday who cluster with recent Eurasian admixed Nubians and share a cultural practice of removing upper incisors with IBM and some atypical Natufian remains who look very North African. I think these people are the source of much of our Eurasian ancestry and certain haplogroups like E-M35, M1, U6. See how it clusters away from the Sub Saharan Jebel Sahaba and is close to the Cushitic like lower Nubians.

Here are some decent models I made for Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans using Early Neolithic Morocco which was genetically very similar to Taforalt. These models worked way better than any model using Natufian.

 

[Midas]

If you look at the oldest PN samples they plot closest to Ethiopians/Eritreans. It’s around 55% West Eurasian related, whilst the other samples are 40-45% West Eurasian related. And there is little evidence for pastoralists settling East Africa 7000 years ago, what are you basing this claim on?

So no, I don’t think the Somali profile is 7000 years old or even 5000 years old, Cushites 5000 years ago were probably more similar to Ethiopians/Eritreans in Eurasian/SSA proportions, we know this because the earliest Nubians were physically the most Caucasoid and they became more and more Sub Saharan over time. A group Nubians were often described as being indistinguishable from predynastic Upper Egyptians, the same can’t be said for any other Nubian population.
The earliest Kermans were the most caucasoid amongst all the kerman samples and they became more and more SSA-like over time. You can see this in this analysis.
View attachment 358736
KAW is an early Kerman sample and KER is a later one. As you can see KAW is shifted towards Egyptians.
View attachment 358737

I don't think they'll match closer to ethiosemetic pouplations. It would actually make no sense for them to match closer because ethiosemetic pouplations have an extra 10-15% south arabian ancestry as well as omotic influences.