Ancient eygptians, pastoral neoltihci and ev-12
- Thread starter Midas
- Start date
I mean shimbris pointed out how simialr somali cranial morphology is to the naqadans . It's gonna be very funny when they find all of these heavily ssa shifted naqdan dna samples and they try to invent alternate explanations.If it turns out that the predynastic Egyptians had similar SSA/Eurasian ratios as Horn Africans... all those white supremacists are going to have a meltdown
I use to believe that as well. But now in extremely skeptical of that possibility. I mean
1) they have the exact same genetic makeup as cushites
2) the same e sub clade haplogroups found in eastern cushites.
3) they probably left Egypt/sudan a millenia or 2 before they arrived in kenya . So even when they were in eygpt they existed at the same time as cushties.
If a pouplation like that could speak some totally unrelated non cushitic language. Then almost no language would meet that standard of evidence.
I can model some Horners on Vahaduo as having some Early pastoral ancestry but yeah I don’t think any living people having a significant amount of ancestry from them.
I think they were ultimately a mix of Cushitic folk and some other more mysterious population. They carried K1a which was associated with ANF ancestry likely mediated through Levantine farmers and the other one was L3f, both of these lineages are normal for North East Africans. The E-M75 is very strange and difficult to explain though.
The thing is I can model this sample well using Natufian, the other pastoralists and living Cushitic folk need post Neolithic Levantine samples like Bronze Age Jordan. Neolithic Morocco and Abusir also works well but Natufian not so much. I think this sample may have ancestry from some Natufian settlers in North East Africa that aren’t really ancestral to other Cushitic pastoralists.
We have evidence for Levantine/Northern Egyptians settling in Eritrea, maybe some Cushites took the Eritrea/Red Sea route and mixed with these Natufian-like people?
“Helwan lunates are extremely rare, and given their particular hafting technique, one may wonder if these were not borrowed from other, older or contemporary assemblages. Interestingly, in southern Sinai, the assemblages of the Abu Madi I site (Bar-Yosef 1985), dated to ca. 9,600-8,300 cal BC, contain el-Khiam and tanged points, as well as small rods (bipolar retouched, narrow, double pointed microliths) and a few Helwan lunates. It seems that a site that lies some 150-250 km south of any Natufian sites including those on both sides of the Jordan Rift valley retained an old tradition. Abu Madi I is also far away from the original localities at Helwan, where a couple of dozens of Helwan lunates were found in the detailed survey carried out by F. Debono in the 1930s (Schmidt 1996 and references therein).
To this we should also add the undated context of obsidian Helwan lunates in an assemblage retrieved in Dahlak island (Eritrea) in the Red Sea some 1,800 km south of the Nile delta (Blanc 1952). By comparison to studied shell middens with lunates, the dates at Dahlak may range from ca. 6,800 to 6,000 cal BC (Bar Yosef Mayer and Beyin 2009).”
Here is the link for anyone interested.
I've noticed you've been saying for a while now that they're identical to Somalis, but that's not accurate, walaal. They carry a significant amount of Mota-like hunter-gatherer admixture—comparable to what we see in Oromos, or sometimes even somewhere between Oromos and Wolaytas. When you break it down and factor out that Mota-type ancestry, you're left with more MENA ancestry than would make sense for a population ancestral to Somalis or even other Horners like the Habeshas. If they were our primary ancestors, we'd all probably be around 10–20% more MENA than we are today.
They also show traces of post-Neolithic MENA ancestry that includes a bit of Iran_ChL-like input, which doesn’t seem to be the same Arabian stuff we see in modern populations—aside from one recent sample. I’m planning to go into this more in my post, insha’Allah.
That said, I do think the Pastoral Neolithic people contributed to the ancestry of modern Horners. It’s just that we’re also descended from one or more later waves that likely intermixed with them. I can’t see them as a genetic dead-end—their archaeological footprint is spread too widely across the Horn for that to be the case. These saaxiibs were everywhere from Koonfur to Woqooyi Galbeed to the lakes in Southwest Ethiopia to the Amhara region and the Eritrean coast.
I'm going to be honest with you, saaxiib — anything qpAdm-related, I'm almost inclined to ignore on sight. You can make just about anything look like a "good fit" depending on your Left and Right pops. I've seen models that looked statistically solid where Somalis looked to draw much of our MENA ancestry from the people of the Kura-Araxes culture:
Kura–Araxes culture - Wikipedia
Absolutely absurd, of course. Punt explained well how meticulous the methodology has to be for it to be meaningful and even then...
Truth be told, ADMIXTURE and definitely Monte-Carlo Simulations based on G25 coords are far less likely to lead you astray. They at worst can be overfit by throwing in too many samples in the latter and then be skewed somewhat by drift and miss a few things but the patterns they notice will usually be quite on-point and never so absurd as what qpAdm can barf out without the right structuring.
My assumption was always that these guys and us came from the same source pouplation in eygpt/sudan and that they just left a couple millenia earlier than us.
I know theres some difference between somalis and thess guys. But isnt the Kadruka Sample found on the border between sudan and eygpt almost indistinguishable from the pastoral neolithic dna ? Shouldn't this kadruka sample which was found on the border between sudan and eygpt have a much higher mena ancestry ?.
TheLand
VIP
One thing I’m wondering about and I’m sure a lot of people here are too, would these people have looked any different from Somalis in terms of phenotype even with an extra 10-20% MENA ancestry? I doubt they did. If you look at African Americans for example who have 20-25% Northwest European dna they look physically indistinguishable from Sub Saharan Africans. Some of these polygenic traits like skin tone, hair texture, etc don’t seem to change at those levels. I think a lot of people look at this stuff and assume certain ancient groups with 10-20% difference in certain genetic components looked different to us, but I’m not so sure they did, even though they may ‘on paper’.
TheLand
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Even with what he is saying, it’s already pretty damn close so to make a distinction is kinda silly in my view. It’s possible that it’s completely within the error and several groups are very close in morphology.
Yes you’re talking about mnemonics from anthrogenica, he would always use weird right pops iirc which is probably why he came up with weird models like that but I’ve messed around with these genomes a lot and I think those models are sound. It’s lines up with other tools like admixture where we see a North African component(if North African samples are present) and a Natufian-like + Iranian like component aswell as a Dinka like component. See Fregel et al 2018.
I think the best model I’ve done for Somalis is EN Morocco + Abusir Egyptian + Dinka. Abusir is basically Bronze Age Jordan + a small amount of EN Morocco.
And every rule “PuntDNALKing” outlined I make sure to always follow, except for the “never use a source population younger than a target” as that would mean we couldn’t model any of the Kenyan or Tanzanian pastoralists, Taforalt or almost anything from Africa in general.
Also, you yourself uploaded a set of qpadm models where Somalis were best modelled as Dinka + PPNB + Chalc Iran.
Which is basically Dinka + BAJ, except my model which includes EN Morocco makes more sense given the physical data, Al khiday, shuqbah Natufians, Somali uniparentals etc
sbꜣ : (reconstructed) IPA(key): /saˈbaʀ/ : in (Old Egyptian, c. 2500 BCE) IPA(key): /saˈbaʀ/ or /ˈsiːbaʀ/ .
as you can see it is a Somali word :
l → s ,
la bar → sa bar → sabar .
or ,
From Proto-Afroasiatic *s- (causative prefix).
Prefixed with s- (causative prefix).
is bar , soo bar , sii bar , ......
sbꜣ : (reconstructed) IPA(key): /saˈbaʀ/ : in (Old Egyptian, c. 2500 BCE) IPA(key): /saˈbaʀ/ or /ˈsiːbaʀ/ .
l → s ,
la bar → sa bar → sabar .
---------------------------------------
l ↔ t / d ,
s ↔ b ,
la sabar → ta babar → tababar ( to train ) .
tababare ( instructor ) .
TheLand
VIP
This shows us the original word ‘bar’ actually meant ‘open/reveal’…thus learn/teach…sobar here means ‘reveal to’ aka teach.
TheLand
VIP
@Maakhri2024 @Midas @Arabsiyawi
Look at the word ‘Gr’ here…very similar to Somali Gar. One of its meanings is ‘wise living according to maat’. Will need to be confirmed but very close to Somali Gar/Garasho.
Look at the word ‘Gr’ here…very similar to Somali Gar. One of its meanings is ‘wise living according to maat’. Will need to be confirmed but very close to Somali Gar/Garasho.
cunug3aad
3rdchild · Suugo dottore
Waxa weye waxa weye dayaaaxa2) a pouplar ancient relegious ramdan folk song which is coptic ( ancient eygptian) which literally uses the words "waxaa weyee". Which literally translates to "this is" i can't see how they could use this kind of word order and phrase if it wasn't east cushtic
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="ar" dir="rtl">🫵<br>Waxa weeye Dayaxa"Ayaxa"<br>تعنى باللغة الصومالية
هاهو القمر
<br>انقرضت لغة الفراعنة واللغة القبطية أصبحت لغة طقسية كنيسة
<br>ولكن مازالت اللغة الصومالية من اللغات الناجية من العالم القديم
<br>لأجل ذالك لم يصطحب ملوك مصر القديمة
أي مترجمين عند زيارتهم ملوك البونت
(@Hanan1300193975) <a href="">July 28, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
If you read ( gr ) backward, it will become ( dg ).
r ↔ t / d ,
dg: dag,
Wuu degan yahay: He is calm .
so ,
gar = dag .
@TheLand ,
The ancient Egyptian word ( jfdw ) means four .
The Somali word ( afar ) means four.
d ↔ r ,
jfdw = afar .
so ,
gr ↔ dg by metathesis ,
gar = dag ( metathesis ) .
Last edited:
gr ↔ dg by metathesis ,
gar = dag ( metathesis ) .
Of course, ( qof dagan ) a calm and silent person is apparently wise.
also ,
garo , garawso , garasho ,garaad ,
Waa qof waxgarad ah.
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