Are ex muslims still considered Somalis? Poll Vote
- Thread starter Killamenace78
- Start date
Low education level. Somali parents just have kids and never teach them about their history or culture
The alchemist
VIP
Ethnicity contains religion and culture, tradition, history, language, social conditions, and so on. Religion is at the core of ethnic definition because even in anthropological research in the purely secular scholarly realm, they recognize it is extremely widely definitional of a people's lifeways and group coherency orientation across time, so that is usually what they seek to insight first a principle of foundation to build upon as belief touches every parcel of the way of life of a group.
This notion that ethnicity is purely genetic is bizarre and would not be taken seriously by any academic, nor would any group claim ethnicity is pure genetic either. Neither is a lineage an ethnicity either. Several lineages can be in different ethnicities. People conflate these terms. They do this because they don't like that categories serve a purpose and that not sticking to them means there are consequences. A person that lies a lot is not an honest person... They can be partly honest if we're being technical, but not honest. If you disagree with this fundamental truth, then you're not honest.
It's peculiar that people respond with so many emotions, thinking they can come and redefine what it means to be Somali just because some people who hate Somaliness choose to not ascribe to it. It's very strange. It makes me think they are sympathetic to murtads for whatever reason or they are just plain immature and certainly not the intelligent bunch.
To be more discerning, the word "ethnicity" is not a global term. Each group has their respective conditions and you would have to check them for specific cases. Think of it as a general tool base, not a universal standard. What constitutes being a Jew is not the same as what it means to be Somali, for example. Neither do I think what constituted being a Jew 2000 years ago was the same as what Jewish ethnic identity criteria among New York-based Jews. That is why it is important to intelligently be aware of the implications of these Western word use in their application.
No one here in their right mind would claim that a child of genetic Han origins brought up by Cadaan people and only socialized in their ways and beliefs, completely unlike Chinese, is ethnically Han as the Hans in China. That would be ridiculous. Then the term ethnicity or criteria for group identity monopoly does not exist.
Now, of course, for an adopted child, that dilemma is difficult but it is what it is. They are more cadaan than Chinese. Later they might go and educate themselves and start slowly to justify their Chinese identity but that has to take the form of truly embracing what it means to be Chinese to a considerable extent and socialize with their people. There is some level of subjectivity to it by the person feeling Chinese here and there. That is not for me to go into. But a Han Chinese from China will tell you exactly what his people are about. On what planet are we in where an adopted person can claim to be as ethnically as the people that grew up on it and lived it? That is dishonest.
This all-inclusive garbage is pushed by people who stand for nothing, or stand for the opposition and undermine what exists for people who spit on and insult our values. That is why you know they don't care for Somali identity but want to step on its definition at every turn, especially, coming out of the woodwork when it pertains to the deen while never hearing them say anything positive about it. We know what they are about. I'm not going to embrace people who hate my values and identity, the same way I am not going to embrace a person who hates me and my ways. Many of you are truly infantile, lacking in reasoning. Embracing them is self-sabotage because they usually work with the enemies of Islam and Somalis, and be their agents, take Ayaan Hirsi, for example.
The answer is no, by category. A murtad that divorces themselves from most of what it means to be Somali is not fully ethnically Somali. Unless you diasporans have redefined or never understood anything about the ways of Somalis. Adopted the ways of foreigners and then judged a pre-existing Somali value construction with a foreign lens. Well, that is rejected as soon as you meet native cultured people.
Heck, I am sure there are Oromos with 80% Somali DNA. Those people are not ethnically Somali if they are fully Oromo in culture, identity, etc, are they?
It does not work for other Western groups. Why? Because the liberal West has an anti-religious nature and extreme form of individualism. They've marinated themselves through a kafirness for centuries. That is why an African American can be a Christian, Muslim, or something else and still be ethnically African American because they are Western. Ethnicity and nationality are almost interchangeably in Western countries while it is not among the Somali.
There are different groups on this forum:
- The ones that identify as murtads definitely will tell you they are Somali despite hating it, and insulting the ways of the Somali like an outsider, really loving the way of the gaal, and would insult Islam if that did not lead to a backlash, which they probably do in their private life or in other spaces. These know they are an out-group for sure.
- The ones that claim they are not murtads but rather be around murtads rather than Somalis who should be classified with murtads, yet claim to be Muslims, but never assertively and you never hear them say anything positive about Islam and always come to criticize when the opportunity presents itself. These pretend to be an in-group and are arguably more detestable than the murtad that outwardly comes clean about their position, as these are just cowards that would stab you in the back. You never know if they are in the deen or outside it because of how they move.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Then there are foolish Muslims who think murtads are ethnically Somali because thinking it is purely about lineage or genetics, not knowing the ways of the Somali. These gene-centric people are the biggest qabilist people and would side with a kafir qabil-obsessed person within their clan over a Somali of another clan who was a Muslim. They will defend a person of their clan who promotes anti-Islamic ways just because of this notion of clan. It's clan over everything for these people and if they could have their way, they would maybe even define their clan as a separate ethnic group because they treat clans with the same disgusting prejudice as hate between unrelated peoples.
- The ones that claim they don't care but would be sympathetic to the murtads are ethnic Somali side, usually for liberal reasons they have not processed much but are very intellectually lazy.
- The ones that claim they don't care but have conflicting non-processed ideas where they would side against the idea that murtads are ethnic Somalis under discussion. These people are not bad but they are just chill, maybe too chill. And I think they are well-meaning.
- The people who claim murtads cannot be Somali because of religion. I agree with these people but usually, they never write anything beyond a short "No." Which is not very helpful because they rarely elaborate, lol.
- The people who claim murtads are outside like me understand things are irreconcilable but write long texts on it. People like me are another minority but with the argument, we include a strong argument that the three sequential categories above agree with and even make the clan-minded folks also think lowkey it is correct. So not many people make the argument but a lot of people listed 3-4 would agree with the argument because it is adjacent and includes the reasoning points they sort of hold and for what they recognize is true with regards to Somaliness.
This is this forum.
In real life, on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Somalis would send you a reality check of where things stand. A forum is not representative of anything since it brings all kinds of outliers. And we all know this.
This notion that ethnicity is purely genetic is bizarre and would not be taken seriously by any academic, nor would any group claim ethnicity is pure genetic either. Neither is a lineage an ethnicity either. Several lineages can be in different ethnicities. People conflate these terms. They do this because they don't like that categories serve a purpose and that not sticking to them means there are consequences. A person that lies a lot is not an honest person... They can be partly honest if we're being technical, but not honest. If you disagree with this fundamental truth, then you're not honest.
It's peculiar that people respond with so many emotions, thinking they can come and redefine what it means to be Somali just because some people who hate Somaliness choose to not ascribe to it. It's very strange. It makes me think they are sympathetic to murtads for whatever reason or they are just plain immature and certainly not the intelligent bunch.
To be more discerning, the word "ethnicity" is not a global term. Each group has their respective conditions and you would have to check them for specific cases. Think of it as a general tool base, not a universal standard. What constitutes being a Jew is not the same as what it means to be Somali, for example. Neither do I think what constituted being a Jew 2000 years ago was the same as what Jewish ethnic identity criteria among New York-based Jews. That is why it is important to intelligently be aware of the implications of these Western word use in their application.
No one here in their right mind would claim that a child of genetic Han origins brought up by Cadaan people and only socialized in their ways and beliefs, completely unlike Chinese, is ethnically Han as the Hans in China. That would be ridiculous. Then the term ethnicity or criteria for group identity monopoly does not exist.
Now, of course, for an adopted child, that dilemma is difficult but it is what it is. They are more cadaan than Chinese. Later they might go and educate themselves and start slowly to justify their Chinese identity but that has to take the form of truly embracing what it means to be Chinese to a considerable extent and socialize with their people. There is some level of subjectivity to it by the person feeling Chinese here and there. That is not for me to go into. But a Han Chinese from China will tell you exactly what his people are about. On what planet are we in where an adopted person can claim to be as ethnically as the people that grew up on it and lived it? That is dishonest.
This all-inclusive garbage is pushed by people who stand for nothing, or stand for the opposition and undermine what exists for people who spit on and insult our values. That is why you know they don't care for Somali identity but want to step on its definition at every turn, especially, coming out of the woodwork when it pertains to the deen while never hearing them say anything positive about it. We know what they are about. I'm not going to embrace people who hate my values and identity, the same way I am not going to embrace a person who hates me and my ways. Many of you are truly infantile, lacking in reasoning. Embracing them is self-sabotage because they usually work with the enemies of Islam and Somalis, and be their agents, take Ayaan Hirsi, for example.
The answer is no, by category. A murtad that divorces themselves from most of what it means to be Somali is not fully ethnically Somali. Unless you diasporans have redefined or never understood anything about the ways of Somalis. Adopted the ways of foreigners and then judged a pre-existing Somali value construction with a foreign lens. Well, that is rejected as soon as you meet native cultured people.
Heck, I am sure there are Oromos with 80% Somali DNA. Those people are not ethnically Somali if they are fully Oromo in culture, identity, etc, are they?
It does not work for other Western groups. Why? Because the liberal West has an anti-religious nature and extreme form of individualism. They've marinated themselves through a kafirness for centuries. That is why an African American can be a Christian, Muslim, or something else and still be ethnically African American because they are Western. Ethnicity and nationality are almost interchangeably in Western countries while it is not among the Somali.
There are different groups on this forum:
- The ones that identify as murtads definitely will tell you they are Somali despite hating it, and insulting the ways of the Somali like an outsider, really loving the way of the gaal, and would insult Islam if that did not lead to a backlash, which they probably do in their private life or in other spaces. These know they are an out-group for sure.
- The ones that claim they are not murtads but rather be around murtads rather than Somalis who should be classified with murtads, yet claim to be Muslims, but never assertively and you never hear them say anything positive about Islam and always come to criticize when the opportunity presents itself. These pretend to be an in-group and are arguably more detestable than the murtad that outwardly comes clean about their position, as these are just cowards that would stab you in the back. You never know if they are in the deen or outside it because of how they move.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Then there are foolish Muslims who think murtads are ethnically Somali because thinking it is purely about lineage or genetics, not knowing the ways of the Somali. These gene-centric people are the biggest qabilist people and would side with a kafir qabil-obsessed person within their clan over a Somali of another clan who was a Muslim. They will defend a person of their clan who promotes anti-Islamic ways just because of this notion of clan. It's clan over everything for these people and if they could have their way, they would maybe even define their clan as a separate ethnic group because they treat clans with the same disgusting prejudice as hate between unrelated peoples.
- The ones that claim they don't care but would be sympathetic to the murtads are ethnic Somali side, usually for liberal reasons they have not processed much but are very intellectually lazy.
- The ones that claim they don't care but have conflicting non-processed ideas where they would side against the idea that murtads are ethnic Somalis under discussion. These people are not bad but they are just chill, maybe too chill. And I think they are well-meaning.
- The people who claim murtads cannot be Somali because of religion. I agree with these people but usually, they never write anything beyond a short "No." Which is not very helpful because they rarely elaborate, lol.
- The people who claim murtads are outside like me understand things are irreconcilable but write long texts on it. People like me are another minority but with the argument, we include a strong argument that the three sequential categories above agree with and even make the clan-minded folks also think lowkey it is correct. So not many people make the argument but a lot of people listed 3-4 would agree with the argument because it is adjacent and includes the reasoning points they sort of hold and for what they recognize is true with regards to Somaliness.
This is this forum.
In real life, on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Somalis would send you a reality check of where things stand. A forum is not representative of anything since it brings all kinds of outliers. And we all know this.
Netflix
VIP
This is not a reply, but just what I've seen in the West so far.Ethnicity contains religion and culture, tradition, history, language, social conditions, and so on. Religion is at the core of ethnic definition because even in anthropological research in the purely secular scholarly realm, they recognize it is extremely widely definitional of a people's lifeways and group coherency orientation across time, so that is usually what they seek to insight first a principle of foundation to build upon as belief touches every parcel of the way of life of a group.
This notion that ethnicity is purely genetic is bizarre and would not be taken seriously by any academic, nor would any group claim ethnicity is pure genetic either. Neither is a lineage an ethnicity either. Several lineages can be in different ethnicities. People conflate these terms. They do this because they don't like that categories serve a purpose and that not sticking to them means there are consequences. A person that lies a lot is not an honest person... They can be partly honest if we're being technical, but not honest. If you disagree with this fundamental truth, then you're not honest.
It's peculiar that people respond with so many emotions, thinking they can come and redefine what it means to be Somali just because some people who hate Somaliness choose to not ascribe to it. It's very strange. It makes me think they are sympathetic to murtads for whatever reason or they are just plain immature and certainly not the intelligent bunch.
To be more discerning, the word "ethnicity" is not a global term. Each group has their respective conditions and you would have to check them for specific cases. Think of it as a general tool base, not a universal standard. What constitutes being a Jew is not the same as what it means to be Somali, for example. Neither do I think what constituted being a Jew 2000 years ago was the same as what Jewish ethnic identity criteria among New York-based Jews. That is why it is important to intelligently be aware of the implications of these Western word use in their application.
No one here in their right mind would claim that a child of genetic Han origins brought up by Cadaan people and only socialized in their ways and beliefs, completely unlike Chinese, is ethnically Han as the Hans in China. That would be ridiculous. Then the term ethnicity or criteria for group identity monopoly does not exist.
Now, of course, for an adopted child, that dilemma is difficult but it is what it is. They are more cadaan than Chinese. Later they might go and educate themselves and start slowly to justify their Chinese identity but that has to take the form of truly embracing what it means to be Chinese to a considerable extent and socialize with their people. There is some level of subjectivity to it by the person feeling Chinese here and there. That is not for me to go into. But a Han Chinese from China will tell you exactly what his people are about. On what planet are we in where an adopted person can claim to be as ethnically as the people that grew up on it and lived it? That is dishonest.
This all-inclusive garbage is pushed by people who stand for nothing, or stand for the opposition and undermine what exists for people who spit on and insult our values. That is why you know they don't care for Somali identity but want to step on its definition at every turn, especially, coming out of the woodwork when it pertains to the deen while never hearing them say anything positive about it. We know what they are about. I'm not going to embrace people who hate my values and identity, the same way I am not going to embrace a person who hates me and my ways. Many of you are truly infantile, lacking in reasoning. Embracing them is self-sabotage because they usually work with the enemies of Islam and Somalis, and be their agents, take Ayaan Hirsi, for example.
The answer is no, by category. A murtad that divorces themselves from most of what it means to be Somali is not fully ethnically Somali. Unless you diasporans have redefined or never understood anything about the ways of Somalis. Adopted the ways of foreigners and then judged a pre-existing Somali value construction with a foreign lens. Well, that is rejected as soon as you meet native cultured people.
Heck, I am sure there are Oromos with 80% Somali DNA. Those people are not ethnically Somali if they are fully Oromo in culture, identity, etc, are they?
It does not work for other Western groups. Why? Because the liberal West has an anti-religious nature and extreme form of individualism. They've marinated themselves through a kafirness for centuries. That is why an African American can be a Christian, Muslim, or something else and still be ethnically African American because they are Western. Ethnicity and nationality are almost interchangeably in Western countries while it is not among the Somali.
There are different groups on this forum:
- The ones that identify as murtads definitely will tell you they are Somali despite hating it, and insulting the ways of the Somali like an outsider, really loving the way of the gaal, and would insult Islam if that did not lead to a backlash, which they probably do in their private life or in other spaces. These know they are an out-group for sure.
- The ones that claim they are not murtads but rather be around murtads rather than Somalis who should be classified with murtads, yet claim to be Muslims, but never assertively and you never hear them say anything positive about Islam and always come to criticize when the opportunity presents itself. These pretend to be an in-group and are arguably more detestable than the murtad that outwardly comes clean about their position, as these are just cowards that would stab you in the back. You never know if they are in the deen or outside it because of how they move.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Then there are foolish Muslims who think murtads are ethnically Somali because thinking it is purely about lineage or genetics, not knowing the ways of the Somali. These gene-centric people are the biggest qabilist people and would side with a kafir qabil-obsessed person within their clan over a Somali of another clan who was a Muslim. They will defend a person of their clan who promotes anti-Islamic ways just because of this notion of clan. It's clan over everything for these people and if they could have their way, they would maybe even define their clan as a separate ethnic group because they treat clans with the same disgusting prejudice as hate between unrelated peoples.
- The ones that claim they don't care but would be sympathetic to the murtads are ethnic Somali side, usually for liberal reasons they have not processed much but are very intellectually lazy.
- The ones that claim they don't care but have conflicting non-processed ideas where they would side against the idea that murtads are ethnic Somalis under discussion. These people are not bad but they are just chill, maybe too chill. And I think they are well-meaning.
- The people who claim murtads cannot be Somali because of religion. I agree with these people but usually, they never write anything beyond a short "No." Which is not very helpful because they rarely elaborate, lol.
- The people who claim murtads are outside like me understand things are irreconcilable but write long texts on it. People like me are another minority but with the argument, we include a strong argument that the three sequential categories above agree with and even make the clan-minded folks also think lowkey it is correct. So not many people make the argument but a lot of people listed 3-4 would agree with the argument because it is adjacent and includes the reasoning points they sort of hold and for what they recognize is true with regards to Somaliness.
This is this forum.
In real life, on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Somalis would send you a reality check of where things stand. A forum is not representative of anything since it brings all kinds of outliers. And we all know this.
In the diaspora, there are many 'Muslims' who are one step away from being considered full-blown non-Muslims. They barely pray and commit major sins but show up for Jummah anyway. I believe their more practicing friends wouldn't cut them off if they came out with disbelief. I think most Muslim Somalis in their 20s are indifferent, just my opinion.
For the reasons you mentioned, I can understand that just because something is the majority opinion doesn't make it true.
They are still Somali but outcasted as Islam is a key part of Somalinimo.
The alchemist
VIP
The most degenerate Somalis are anti-kafirism, as well, best believe. Somalis are loyal to the deen because it is part and parcel of who we are. If some guy engaged in a wrong lifestyle, heard some dude went out of the deen, he would not involve himself with that person, probably view him as a traitor and a weirdo, think it is a confused guy with internal issues that they leave alone and don't engage with. The people that do vices are not the people that leave the deen, and they don't accept them either. I disagree strongly with the notion that they are indifferent; that is not what you observe among Somalis.
We are different from these other ethnicities (not going to name them) that come to the West and instantly drink the Cadaan Kool-Aid and turn into kafirs or have a very kafir-adjecent mindset. 99.9% of Somalis who live partying or whatever eventually plan to get out of the lifestyle into an Islamic correct one. Because belief was never an issue, we have other problems.
Certain ethnicities have cultures that gravitate toward higher murtad rates because Westernization started in their homelands. It seeped into their socio-culture, where they believe becoming more like the liberal West is the only path to success and economic improvement. They associate irreligiosity with prestige climbing, a perspective that has never been part of the Somali way of thinking. You know what I am talking about if you spoke to some of these other groups. They are more indifferent to the notions of the murtad rates.
