Are the Dinka Nubians? (Origins of the Dinka & Nilotes)

[Bior]

This was meant to be post on sudanese reddit but I was having too many technical problems uploading it so I decide I'd drop it here, hope you guys find it valuable.

Also I always wanted an excuse t post this, so ig I found it, lol.

A bit of a catfish title ngl but I saw somebody make a post on asking about dinka history on relationship to ancient nubia and whatever and as a south sudanese admirer of nubian history who wanted to claim nubia but has researched this topic inside and out, I decided to make my comment a post which ill post here and on the south sudanese reddit for anyone else in the future or currently who may have had the same questions that I had, so hope this serves you well





it was pick like this that had 1st caught my interest, but I wanted to know more, lol

Disclaimer: You don't have to agree with me at all, frankly, I couldn't care any less. You are not forced to take whatever I say as genuine truth or anything. Im just a random Dinka guy who was really interested to try and learn about the history of his people. This is for the Sudanese (north & south) and anyone else who is interested in our origins/history and anybody else (africans obv, lol) who can relate to wanting to learn more about their own history but is working from limited resources.





Ngl I've talked with ppl about the origins of Dinka and nilotes for a while now, and although I don't think we have all the answers, I do think I came across enough things that Dinka people, nilotic people, and anyone interested in outr history could make good use of. It seems to me the especially in the last few years with the popularity of anti afrocentric sentiments going on the rise, any acknowledgement of nilote history that has to do w nubia especially has been always dismissed as "afrocentric" ideology and just wishful thinking. Especially with Somali nationalist movements as well people want to associate the history of sudan with "Cushitic people" who are "less african" in some ways and I notice this view take popularity w northern sudanese people who see south sudanese who want to connect with northern history as hoteps and are looking for a away to delegitimize or downplay and real connections with south Sudanese. Hence why, a lot claims about dinka living in northern Sudan, particularly the gezira for example, people like to bruh the topic off as "oral tradition" that is unreliable, yet they haven't actually read up on it to know how reliable they are in the 1st place, or to see that it actually in only based on oral tradition. So I'll break this comment down to a few sections. First the origins and migration history of the Nilotes and especially the Dinka, then 2nd will be cultural influences that Dinkas had specifically with the Nile Valley kingdoms (especially Alodia since it is the best documented) and also historical records.

 

[Bior]

Migration history:

• Historical Linguistics

Okay so to start this off we gotta take this to the basic levels, most people who ever talk about “migrations” of certain tribes and ethnic groups, if you ever want to verify or see the validity of what it is that they are saying, you must understand these basic concepts which are historical linguistics, and basically populations genetics. And the reason why is because using these things you can see who a groups is related to, track the expansions of their material cultures, and see how old they are, who they have common origins/backgrounds with, and etc… If if was to run a class on basic african history, this would be one of the 1st lessons that id give to people, because without it you end up with hoteps whatever else you call it. Cause people can effectively just make things up and there’s no real way you can verify it.





Africa as you may know if you are familiar with African history spaces is broken up into a few major language groups (ik there’s more but im talking about the majors). Those language groups are Niger Congo (Bantu, Yoruba, igbo, ubangian, etc), Afro Asiatic Languages (Arabic, Egyptian, berber, Cushitic, Chadic, etc..) and then the one most relavent to this post, Nilo Saharan (Nilotic, Surmic, Nubian, Nara, central sudanic, saharan, Kunama, etc…). Now I wanna make one thing clear, very clear. All of these languages are basically from green Sahara, the quickest and shortest way for me to describe African prehistory is that all 3 of these languages originated within the green saharan region, the speakers of these languages learned who to food produce (spread of pastoralism and development of agriultrue, etc..) and then when the Sahara dried they just expanded southward into the rest of Africa which was mostly inhabited by hunter gatherers. Think of the Bantu expansion which is the biggest and most famous of these, you can actually see that they were basically just west africans who accumulated a bunch of African hunter gatherers dna.





(G25 Vahaduo)

(I used my own dna sample to represent East African ancestry in the Bantu groups which is what “Bior” stands for, and yes, I am dinka is I was a good reference to say the least) “Paleo african click” represents Khoisan like ancestry which is South African hunter gatherer. Mbuti is pygmy, and Yoruba reps west african obv.





So I say all of this to say is, the story of most of the expansions of major language and people groups is basically expansion over hg areas, and theres obv history of the groups expanding over each other also which you can really see in Kenyan Archeology which id say arguabley the bet thing to happen for Africa history and anthropology spaces cause Kenya has and had all of teh language groups pus the hg o its really useful to learn about it especially in realtionship to the nilote migrations.





To focus more on the core topic, in East Africa you have the expansion of 3 main groups, Nilotic, Cushitic, and Bantu. Now nilotic and Cushitic groups and their expansions are pretty much usually associated with pastoralism. While the bantu are more agricultural. So to look at the pastoralist expansions, and to break them down basically. Here’s what you need to know.





In Sudan specifically nubia you really have the following scenerio going on.





Id describer sudan histry in Nubia as you have mesolithic groups that resembled nilotes, the spread of afro asicatic language borough a west eurasian component related to natudian, which you get c group, pre kerma and etc from, and then after the wadi howar diaspora you get the spread of nilo saran groups across sudan and into nubia with languages like meroitic, you also had nilotic nearby, and then another expaniosn after the fall or Meroe by nubian speakers from Kordofan and then nilotes start expanding and reach South Sudan and south East Africa in the Middle Ages.





Heres an example of a Mesolithic sudanese man found in wadi half

more interestingly, this skull was included in study that examined sudanese skulls dating from back to the Mesolithic all the way until the modern times, and here were their coments.

https://openscience.ub.uni-mainz.de/handle/20.500.12030/2112





here is another screenshot from the same paper which explained the initial spread of MENA ancestry in sudan.





we can also easily see this in the ancient dna ,we actually have haplogroup data on ancient Sudanese populations and the results seem to align well with the information that showed. Ydna data actually showed that ancient sudanese populations during the neolith period at the site of kadruka carried teh haplogroup A m13 that is seen in its highest frequencies in the nilotes of today. During later periods you had the intro of E1b1b lineages and then later during teh meroitic you have other linages like F and more.

study: https://www.docdroid.net/8GAIp0X/genetic-patterns-of-y-chromosome-and-mitochondrial-hassan-2009-pdf





Crazy enough, all lineages found in this study were found in present day sudanese groups (north and south) which is obv (and some extras like r1b and j1 associated with Arab migrations)

 

[Bior]

Eastern Sudanic:





Moving back to linguistics Eastern sudanic is a sub family in nilo sharan , Nilotic languages are a sub branch of the eastern sudanic family and these languages dat back a while while, som differ in their proposal of what time the languages date back to, but one important factor is that we know from studying the languages that eastern sudanic speaker speak, we know they had cattle and were likely pastoralist.





Cushitic:





Cushitic languages are a sub branch of afro asiactic languages and from what ik, we also can tell that the Cushitic groups were also pastoralist.

The thing that makes studying these linguistic groups that came to dominate much of Africa is that they have spread with certain material cultures, lifestyles and ancestries.





You can easily see this when you look at the paper published back in 2019 on the spread of food producers in Kenya, Tanzania and southern East Africa. I which you could basically describe it as pre 5000bp (3000bc) you had East African hg who resembled Ethiopian mota and Hadza groups in there ancestry living in Kenya until 3000 bc you have a “pastoral neolithic culture” which was a culture of Cushitic groups, one of the eariliets sample actually being described as genetically in distinguishable from sudanese sample form the site of Kadruka.

Petrous bones and teeth are the skeletal elements most often targeted by researchers for ancient DNA (aDNA) extraction, and the sources of the majority of previously published ancient African genomes. However, the high temperature environments that characterise much of Africa often lead to poor preservation of skeletal remains. Here, we successfully reconstruct and analyse genome-wide data from the naturally mummified hair of a 4000-year-old individual from Sudan in northeastern Africa, after failed attempts at DNA extraction from teeth, petrous, and cranium of this and other individuals from the Kadruka cemeteries. We find that hair DNA extracted with an established single-stranded library protocol is unusually enriched in ultra-short DNA molecules and exhibits substantial interior molecular damage. The aDNA was nonetheless amenable to genetic analyses, which revealed that the genome is genetically indistinguishable from that of early Neolithic eastern African pastoralists located 2500 kms away. Our findings are consistent with established models for the southward dispersal of Middle Nile Valley pastoral populations to the Rift Valley of eastern Africa, and provide a possible genetic source population for this dispersal. Our study highlights the value of mummified hair as an alternate source of aDNA from regions with poor bone preservation.





https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-25384-y





Then during the you have an Iron Age where you see the spread of iron tools, dna, and lifestyle associated with bantu speaking groups starting aground 2500bp, and then lastly you have the spread of nilotes associated with a 2nd spread of pastoralism and rouletted pottery traditions starting around 1200bp.





Here are some quotes:





We propose a four-stage model that fits the data. First, admixture in northeastern Africa created groups with approximately equal proportions of ancestry related to present-day Sudanese Nilotic speakers and groups from northern Africa and the Levant. Second, descendants of these northeastern Africans mixed with foragers in eastern Africa. Third, an additional component of Sudan-re-lated ancestry contributed to Iron Age pastoralist groups. Fourth, western African-related ancestry, similar to that found in present-day Bantu speakers, appeared with the spread of farming. (Prendergast et al. 2019)





https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6827346/

 

[Bior]

I do want to give another disclaimer tho, which is that you should keep in mind that theories about the migration and settlement of linguistic groups, such as Nilotic, Cushitic, and Bantu peoples, are continually evolving. These theories are constructed based on a combination of linguistic analysis, archaeological evidence, and historical records. However, as new genetic research and archaeological discoveries emerge, our understanding of these migrations may change significantly. The movements and interactions of these groups are complex, and while current models offer insights, they remain subject to revision as new evidence sheds light on the intricate history of human populations in Africa.





Just look at these few example of earlier theories of nilotic migration history in Sudan. Scolars like Christopher ehret actually proposed back drug the 80s in some academic journal on the history of South Sudan that nilotes 1st entered southern sudan around 3000bc and that we spread from the blue nile state in the southern regions of modern day sudan. What he basically did (or at least how it seems to me, lol) is that he picked the most northerly groups and areas where you have nilotic speakers which is Burun people who speak western nilotic languages related to dinka, nuer, luo, and etc..) and just picked that place as the origin place of all nilotes. And for the record this is not shot at him because he was just doing the best that he could with limited data only having linguistic as his real thing to go off of. And some other scholars earlier had even suggested the nilotic groups didn’t even originate from sudan (north or south at all) based on “cultural evidence” (whatever that means, lmao).





Papers:





https://southsudanmuseumnetwork.wor...aw-1982-culture-history-in-southern-sudan.pdf





https://archive.org/details/dinkachristianit0000nikk





But in the same papers there were also academics who focused more attention in archeolohical findings that actually suggested that the nilotic groups had more northerly origins which you can associate with the spread of pastoralism which is was you can see is the more accepted view today.





This is exactly the case for what you have with eastern sudainic. The languages family that include Nubian languages such as





Nara,Tama, Nyimang (Ama), Taman ,Daju, Nilotic, Surmic, Jebel, Nubian, Meroitic





The latest theory about the expansion of these languages is that the spread during an event called the “wadi howar diaspora” in which all these languages inhabited the are along the yellow nile, initially arriving there from more northernly regions in southern and western Egypt when you first had evidence for cattle pastoralism and spread along the yellow nile as the “leiterband groups” from around 4000bc until the river dried up which lead to a diaspora of the groups, the ancestors of the dinka and all nilotes were the most eastwards of these groups living in the lower wadi howar while the ancestor of groups who speak what they labeled as “north east sudanic” which is the ancestor of Nubian languages, meroitic languages, and Nara languages lived just west pro the ancestors of nilotic and surmic groups in the middle wadi howar, while the rest like daju and other languages that later migrated to chad and etc. When the river dried ip, the people spread in means diff directions some moving to teh west, east, south and etc… The ancestors of the nilotes went south east, particularly towards the white nile.





From a paper n the wadi howar diaspora:





We might therefore suppose that the speakers of Proto-ES were already cattle-raisers. As domestication is not attested in the Wadi Howar before 4000 BCE, one must suppose either that Proto-ES appeared at this time and in this place, which is Dimmendaal's opinion, or that Proto-Es is earlier and appeared somewhere else, which 1s my opinion.





The first traces of domesticated cattle in Africa are known on the southern sites of the Libyan deserts, not far from the Sudanese border: Nabta Playa, Bir Kiseiba and Gilf Kebir, the latter being famous for its wonderful rock-paintings.





For Nabta Playa, domesticated cattle remains have been dated to 8000 BCE. This early date has recently been confirmed by the discovery in El-Barga, a site close to Kerma, of similar remains dated by radiocarbon to 7000 BCE. The analyses of the Cologne team (see Kuper - Kröpelin 2006) have shown that the population of the region of Nabta Playa and Gilf Kebir, where desertification occurred as early as the end of the 6th millennium, went south to the Wadi Howar and some other Northern Sudanese sites in search of more hospitable pastures for their cattle.





In my opinion, the emergence of Proto-East Sudanic probably took place in the south of Egypt, where animal husbandry appeared much earlier than in Wadi Howar. The dessication of the Egyptian desert caused an initial diaspora between the ES groups. One of these groups went further south, to the Wadi Howar region, developing a specific culture during the course of several centuries, before increasing aridity caused a second diaspora that drove them to different regions. This scenario of a double diaspora explains the common lexicon for cattle in ES groups and leaves enough time for these groups to acquire the considerable linguistic differences that exist between them.





The Wadi Howar Diaspora and its role in the spread of East ...Brillhttps://brill.com › journals › fdl › article-p151





One thing I do wanna also mention is the in this theory the ancestors of then nilotes and surmic speakers have bee nassociated with the herringbone culture in the lower wadi howar which as developed a distinctiveness form the other regular leiterband groups along other parts off the wadi howar becasue they had trade with the early Nubian nile Vally cultures like the A group and Pre Kerma cultures. And the association with nilotes while definitely not 100% proof has been backed by a 2011 study which conducted osteological analysis on a bunch of sudanese remains along the wadi howar, and sudan referencing both ancient and modern groups.

 

[Bior]

Nilotic languages placement in wadi howar:

map of north East African languages that I personally made

Although roughly similar, Dimmendaal's theory and the author's differ in the identification of the original population of the Wadi Howar. In his opinion, they were Proto-East Sudanic speakers and not merely Proto-Northern East Sudanic, although he admits our classification of NES as a consistent group. He assumes that the Proto-ES speakers split into three groups: Nilotic and Surmic in the Lower Wadi Howar, NES in the Middle Wadi Howar, and Temein and Daju in the Upper Wadi Howar.





I think the key issue for this question is a matter of chronology. Dimmendaal followed the outdated theories of our predecessors, and therefore placed the appearance of Meroitic on the Middle Nile around 800 BCE. This late date leaves a sufficient span of time (more than two millennia) between the emergence of Proto-ES around 4000 BCE and the dispersion of the groups for the daughter languages to acquire the linguistic differentiation that exists between them. However, Meroitic is attested much earlier, at the end of the second millennium, as stated above in this article. So the migration of a part of the Eastern branch of the NES group did not occur much later than 2500 BCE, and accordingly, the splitting of the NES languages into three branches could hardly have occurred before 3000 BCE, because the three branches, Eastern, Taman, and Nyima, display considerable divergences, whereas the Eastern group is very coherent. This leaves no more than one millennium for the crystallisation of Proto-ES, its splitting into three groups along the wadi, and for the Proto-NES community to gain a cultural homogeneity which can be deduced from the common lexicon. This span of time seems too small, especially considering the large differences that exist between the East Sudanic language groups, in terms of typology as well as vocabulary and morphology.





The Wadi Howar Diaspora and its role in the spread of East ...Brillhttps://brill.com › journals › fdl › article-p151





Increasing aridity during the fourth millennium c and corresponding changes in the ecosystem in the Lower Wadi Howar (Pöllath and Peters 2007:





65) probably stimulated the growing importance of cattle in economic and social life, and therefore led to the adoption of features such as pits previously known only west of Jebel Rahib in the Leiterband Complex. The recurrence of cattle and the appearance of elements of cattle cults, such as cattle burials, can then be seen as a social response to environmental changes (di Lernia 2006). However, the sites of the late fourth and third millennium Bc in the Lower Wadi Howar cannot simply be incorporated into the Leiterband Complex as they show originality reflected especially in the different pottery design styles present. Besides Leiter-band patterns, incised herringbone patterns are present which clearly indicates strong contact with the A-Group and pre-Kerma culture in the Nubian Nile Valley around the third and second Cataracts (Keding 2000: 92; Jesse 2006: 49).





Affiliation with the Nile Valley is also reflected in the archaeozoological record: the cattle bones found in the Lower Wadi Howar overlap in size with those of the Egyptian and Sudanese Nile Valley (cf. Pöllath and Peters 2005; Jesse et al.





2007), indicating the exchange of livestock and/or the adoption of efficient strategies of husbandry as they had been developed, for example, in Egypt since the Old Kingdom (Laudien 2000: 102-8). The obvious mixture of different cultural traits in the Lower Wadi Howar led to the development of local forms of cattle-centred behaviour at the periphery of the Leiterband Complex.





https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285386959_Hope_your_cattle_are_well





One thing that I can say from reading and debating and talking with people abt this for so long is this. To find origins/location of Proto Nilotic, look for places in northern sudan with cattle pastoralism around 3000bc(time proto nilotic was spoken) near the white nile (we are called “nilotes” because we were a northern group of nilo saharans that expanded southwards, the wadi howar makes sense because there is evidence for a migration towards Kerma of some of these nilo saharan peoples who are the alleged speakers of meroitic and this is evident because there is an undeniable eastern sudanic influence of merotic and some have even suggested it to be apart of the family (north eastern sudanic specifically), so it is amost undeniable that people of the wadi hoar were eastern sudanic which is why it makes sense that the people of lower wadi hoar where proto nilotic and early surmic speakers.

yes, tehe one going towards Khartoum is the nilote one, lol

another map earlier map form teh same author of the previous one


These are my observations.





Here are some other papers n the theory of you wanna read more into it.





https://openscience.ub.uni-mainz.de/bitstream/20.500.12030/2112/1/2927.pdf





https://www.academia.edu/91259563/The_linguistic_prehistory_of_Nubia





Eastern Sudanic and the Wadi Howar and Wadi El Milk ...ResearchGatehttps://www.researchgate.net › publication › 27495446...

 

[Bior]

These are my observations.





Here are some other papers n the theory of you wanna read more into it.





https://openscience.ub.uni-mainz.de/bitstream/20.500.12030/2112/1/2927.pdf





https://www.academia.edu/91259563/The_linguistic_prehistory_of_Nubia





Eastern Sudanic and the Wadi Howar and Wadi El Milk ...ResearchGatehttps://www.researchgate.net › publication › 27495446...





Now that we got that out of the way, I bet you still have one question, “what about South Sudan?” “When did nilotes enter?”





Well tbh, it’s pretty much similar to Kenya if I have tbh. Theres a paper on south sudanese archeology from 3000bc-1500ad ,and basically what we can tell from it is that we have hg groups in south sudan sudan frm around 3000bc all the way until 500bc which made comb impressed pottery and then around 500bc you have teh 1st pastoralist in South Sudan in a place just north of juba, but they weren’t Nilotes, they were central sucanic speakers who made this same comb impressed pottery and made use of iron tools, then drung the a.d years you have the 1st evidence of nilotes around 400-500 ad, which were likely the eastern and southern Nilotic groups who were pastoralist and made twisted cord rouletted pottery, after this especially post 1000 ad you have a spread of wester nilotes like dinka, luo and nuer which was associated with the same things as southern and eastern Nilotic, but then also with the spread of humped cattle. You can however say that it may have began its earlier phased in the 8th century (700s) because you see in certain more northerly areas of South Sudan a gradual process of western niloticization of previously non nilotic more indigenous groups to that region of south sudan. I’ll leave a link to that article here as well.





https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10090610/1/Davies_Kay et al final submission.pdf

The migration history of the dinka become more clear through this and now we will understand it more now, but effectively what all of this shows, is that nilotes do have more northernly orgins in areas at least adjacent to the nubia region and archeological and genetic evidence from regions where they expanded to lated and now inhabit supports that they are more recent migrants to those areas we live in today. These quotes are from Stephanie Bewick who’s done a lot of work uncovering the origins of the Dinka and nilotic peoples especially in relationship to northern sudan.





DInka expanison:





The dinka expansion can pretty much be described as a moment from the gezira region in alodia.





Here’s a quote that talks about the dinka in terms of geographic location and actually says that they could’ve lived in alodia so yk im not talking out my butt.





Migrations away from Areas of War and Slave Raids





Dinka oral histories claim that they migrated south because of drought and war. Sometime during the thirteenth century the Nubian kingdom of Alwa collapsed politically after which there followed a period of chaos intensified by slave raiding. Margaret Shinnie argues that if the Dinka, as they claim, were once located in the region of the Gezira between the Blue and White Niles they would have fallen within the orbit of this Nubian Kingdom (circa. 300-1300). (12) Thus, its catastrophic decline after 1208 a.d. and the concomitant increase in slavery in the region113) are likely to have encouraged those among the slaving classes (the Nilotes) to migrate south. (114) Adams further argues that the cordial





relationship existing after 1250 A.D. between the southern Nubian kings of Alodian successor states and the Mameluk sultans of Egypt was motivated by a strong commercial interest in slaves. (115)





https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/47201





Here’s a quote that tells out what characterized the expansion of the dinka in south Sudan.





The Dinka socioeconomic and political system emerged as the dominant and expanding ethnic system in the Southern Sudan because they possessed a superior breed of hump-backed cattle and hurra grain. This expansion however, came abruptly to a halt towards the latter eighteenth century with the intrusion





of Baggara slave raiders. By 1821 the first of three





This chapter supports the notion that the ancient homeland of the forefathers of the Dinka lies in the modern-day northern Sudan. This thesis is supported by Dinka oral histories which claim that they are not indigenous to Southern Sudan coupled with empirical evidence including linguistics, archaeology and Arab geographers' accounts during the Nubian period. When the Dinka, who are part of the Western Nilotic speaking peoples, acquired (Sanga) hump-backed cattle from Ethiopia sometime after the year 1000 A.D. they expanded into Southern Sudan. The reasons for these migrations into the





These Dinka migrations were made possible because of two important factors. Hump-backed cattle were brought into Sudan from Ethiopia sometime around the year 1000 A.D. These animals are far hardier than the non-humped variety, are more resistant to drought and can travel long distances.





A correlation of the period in which hump-backed cattle are acquired (from the eleventh century onwards) with that of drought (fourteenth to fifteenth centuries) along with evidence of the political demise of Alwa and increased slave raiding (late thirteenth century) makes is reasonable to assume that the period of the twelfth to fourteenth centuries would have been an opportune time for the proto-Dinka to migrate in a southwesterly direction for reasons of sheer survival, as well as to preserve their herds.





https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/47201

 

[Bior]

If you look at the page xix you can find a map of the dinka migration from alodia/gezira in southern sudan.

Slave raiding is also another reason which I see consistently for a reason for a southern migration, which nubia was not alien to at all, the king of alodia was actually said to have even sold his own subjects into slavery and also teh baqt treaty which im sure you guys in here may be aware of if ur familiar with sudanese history, when the makurians would send the 500 yearly slaves they would actually raid the alodians specifically during the earlier periods for some of these slaves, as well as the Beja if im not mistaken.





Here’s a paper in a documented slave girl from Alodia which was actually one of the 1st references in history that we have to the kingdom of Alodia.





https://www.researchgate.net/public..._reexamination_of_papyrus_Strassburg_Inv_1404





Here’s a quote specially concerning the dinka tho:





‘Dinka oral histories claim that they migrated south because of drought and war. Sometime during the thirteenth century the Nubian kingdom of Alwa collapsed politically after which there followed a period of chaos intensified by slave raiding. Margaret Shinnie argues that if the Dinka, as they claim, were once located in the region of the Gezira between the Blue and White Niles they would have fallen within the orbit of this Nubian Kingdom (circa. 300-1300). (12) Thus, its catastrophic decline after 1208 a.d. and the concomitant increase in slavery in the region113) are likely to have encouraged those among the slaving classes (the Nilotes) to migrate south. (114) Adams further argues that the cordial





relationship existing after 1250 A.D. between the southern Nubian kings of Alodian successor states and the Mameluk sultans of Egypt was motivated by a strong commercial interest in slaves. (115)





https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/47201





And for those of you wondering about the story of how alodia actually fell, it was more of a chain of events that lead to its ultimate fall. Swaggy Linus the the individual who wrote the wiki article about alodia is a much more knowledgeable guy but he described it to me like this.





It all kicks off with some raids from a southern people which some scholars propose to be the ancestors of the Dinka and or Luo. They occur sometime around the 13th century, during the time when the mongols invaded Persia, so they were called the “Tartars of Sudan” which is pretty bad ass ngl, lol. They also were said to have attacked the “Habesha” also.





The Conquest of Soba: "Tartars of Sudan"





Sometime around the 13th century this group invaded Alodia & the Habesha (Axum?). It was mentioned that “the Sudan:” (Alodian Kingdom?) would always go on raids into their country, killing, raiding, & plundering. This possibly could’ve triggered the the Damadim invasion & conquest that would soon follow.


http://www.medievalnubia.info/dev/index.php/Al-Harrani





(Page 449)





Quote:





... The country of the Damādim lies along the Nile above the country of the Zanj. It is densely populated. The sūdān always go on raids to this country, killing and plundering. The Damādim do not care about their religions (adyāni-him). In their country there are many giraffes. It is in this country that the Nile bifurcates, one branch flowing to Egypt, and the other towards the Zanj country. (MS Gotha, fols. 30 v - 31 v; MC 1126 v - 1127 r).





They sacked Alodia’s capital city of Soba and occupied the area around 1220 [A.D.] During this same time, the attack of the Tarters against the Moselems of Persia took place. For this, the Damadim were called the “Tarters of Sudan”.





http://www.medievalnubia.info/dev/index.php/Ibn_Sa'id_al-Maghribi





(Page 400)





Quote:





... Among the towns of the Blacks (as-sūdān) located in this fourth Section (juzʾ) there is Dumduma, whence the Damādim people set out against the Nūba and the Ḥabasha in the year 617 H. [1220 A.D.], at the time when the Tatars (at-Ṭaṭar) invaded Persia. For this reason the Damādim are called "the Tatars of the sūdān". The aforesaid town is located at Long. 54° 20' Lat. 9° 30'.





http://www.medievalnubia.info/dev/index.php/Abu-l-Fida'





(Page 465)





Quote:





Another nation are the Damādim who live on the Nile above the Zanj, and are "the Tartars (at-Tatar) of the Blacks (Sūdān)". They (the Damādim) waged war against them (the Zanj ?)<ref>Possibly the Nūba or other peoples may be meant here, but, grammatically, the adverb refers to the Zanj.</ref> and killed many, as it happened between the Tartars and the Moslems. They do not care about their religion (adyān); they have idols (awthān) and different manners. In their countries there are giraffes. In the land of the Damādim the Nile divides, one branch flowing towards Egypt, the other to the Zanj. (Beirut I, pp. 119 - 120)





https://www.google.com/books/editio...bpv=1&dq=damadim&pg=PA115&printsec=frontcover





(Page 115)





Quote:





The intrusion of African tribes into Nubia around 1220





For the first half of the 13th century, there are only a few reports, except for some notes from Abu 1-Fida' and Andalusĩ. They report that the "Damadim" overran Nubia and neighboring countries. The identity of the Damadim is unclear. In Soba, archaeologically, it is evident for the early 13th century that two of the largest churches were destroyed, and the local burial sites, probably of high ecclesiastical dignitaries, were looted. Apparently, a church was used as a residence temporarily and restored as a church after a certain time. This suggests a temporary occupation of Soba by foreign troops and could be related to the conquests by the Damadim.





Andalus, Gugrafyi, OrS: 399-416. Andalus dates the attack of the Damadim on the Nubians and Abyssinians to 1220 and mentions that they were referred to as the "Tatars of the Blacks" due to their simultaneous invasion with the Mongols in Persia, see OrS: 400. Andalusi is often imprecise in terms of locations, as seen in references to the locations of Dongola and Alwa, see OrS: 404-405. Abã I-Fidi' also mentions the Damadim in Tagwim ai-Buidān (Arabic: "Measurement of Lands") and the German term "Dandama" as the place of origin of the Damadim, see OrS: 463. In Multasar ad-dial, Abd I-Fida' mentions the Damadim as the "Tatars of the Blacks" and states that the Nile divides in their land. They have no religion, see OrS: 465. The geographical indications point to a region in South Sudan in the area of the Nile tributaries, see Magrzi. Bifaf, OrS: 593, which refers to a branch of the Nile as the "River of the Damadim." This could indicate the Bahr al-Ghazül (Arabic: "River of the Gazelles," a tributary of the Nile in southwestern Sudan), as also noted by Umarf, see OrS: 513-514.





Vantini 1985: 230-231 suggests the Luo or Dinka as possible tribes that shifted their residence in the Middle Ages. An exact identification remains challenging*. Arabic historians find it difficult to provide reliable information on the names and locations of Sudanese tribes, see also Vantini 1981: 162 and 1985: 229-231.*








Now the location exactly where they were located is a bit debated but we can guess the general area, which is in South Sudan. Either along the white nile and near the sobat, or on the “bahr al ghazal” river.

Which we can say that if these were Dinkas, dinka officially are in south Sudan around 1200 ad, but in the northern most regions.





Now since we know the nilotes migrated in a southernly trend, and alodia is 1st documented around the 5th century or so, we can assume that the dinka have migrated from regions that would’ve actually under the Alwa kingdom but by this time (1200s) we didn’t. It also likely means that while I do beleif the ancestors were in the kingdom of alodia, they were def distinct from the main urban population that would’ve lived in places like soba or whatever.

 

[Bior]

nfluence:

Stephanie bezweck also talks about in here book on war and ethnicity in South Sudan that while Dinkas have been mostly stateless in history, there is some evidence that Dinkas have at least interacted with state societies, specifically the Nubian nile Vally kingdoms, which, given everything I just spilled in this post, is kind of a no brainer.

Here is a quote with her listing the evidences for these claims:

While it has always been assumed the Dinka have been

stateless there is evidence that they were peripheral to state societies at one time as they were closely connected to the ancient Kingdoms of Meroe and Nubia. There are markers within their recent culture to suggest these ancient affiliations.

Until recent times the Dinka conducted human sacrifice of young virgin girls to the rivers and the practice of king killing; both are commonly associated with rising kingdoms and states in Africa and elsewhere. They have also built pyramids for their esteemed leaders and on occasions buried them there.

Lastly, their core vocabulary comprises twenty seven percent classical Nubian words. All these factors suggest an

historical affiliation with the Nile Valley kingdoms.

https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/47201

Here are also some quotes of some paragraphs that I personally added to the dinka wiki page. Which, yeah, say what you want but yes, I did edit that page, cause im confident enough that I can actually contribute to a page talking about the background of my people. Im also kinda too lazy to write up a new paragraph to explain this again, lol.

Additionally, 13th-century accounts by Ibn Sa'id al-Andalusi describe the Damadim, who were engaged in conflict with the Alodians, highlighting interactions between Nilotic groups and Nubian territories. Archaeological evidence, including the tradition of king-killing, links the Dinka to later groups who lived in Alodia's successor state Fazughli *where the custom persisted into the 19th century.*[7]

https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/47201

Here’s another thing she mentioend about Dinka’s possibly adopting certain beer drinking traditions from alodian Nubians

Another custom possibly adopted from a former peripheral residence of the Nubian kingdom of Alwa is beer drinking while sowing seed. According to a traveller of the Nubian period, Ibn Selim el Assouany, the method of sowing dhurra in this region is to leave (mozer/bouzer) beer (mou in Dinka) in the field and "when they return the field is sown." The modern-day Dinka also have beer parties while sowing and cutting dhurra. (101) Assuming therefore that the ancestors of the Dinka lived much farther north of their present-day position, I now propose a number of factors that gave rise to their migrations south.

 

[Bior]

Here are also some of the background for the Dinkas liguistic influence from alodian Nubian:

The unexpected degree of similarity in vocabulary between Dinka and the modern descendant of Classical Nubian,

was first noted by Robin Thelwall.

In his first

interpretation of the Linguist ic evidence Lexicostatistical

Relations Between Nubian, Daju and Dinka," an unpublished paper presented at the Third International Colloquium of Nubian Studies, Chantilly 1975, 5, Thelwall attributed these similarities to a loaning process of historical interaction between speakers of

Classical Nubian

and their

Dinka

contemporaries. The plausibility of this interpretation has more recently been enhanced by the demonstration that some (or many) of the modern Arabic-speaking peoples of the central Nile valley Sudan previously spoke a Nubian language more closely related to Nobiin than to Kenzi-Dongolawi; see Jay Spaulding,

"The old

Shaigi

Language

in

Historical

Perspective," History in Africa 17 (1990): 283-292. and the sources cited therein. According to Adams in the recent past Nubian speakers were widely distributed extending up the Nile as far as modern-day Khartoum and over much of the Gezira.

William Y. Adams, "The Coming of Nubian Speakers," 13. If the Alwan peoples spoke classical Nubian, as seems likely, they had at least a millennium in which to interact linguistically with the Dinka in the Gezira. In a published version of his findings Thelwall changed the interpretation of his evidence to suggest that all the similarities in vocabulary between Dinka and Nobiin could be attributed to cognate descent of

hoto tanguage ohathever reet Protent anecongeructed EhaD

reconstructed this

interpretation remains speculative at best, and in view of the plausibility of historical interaction between medieval Dinka speakers and medieval Nubian speakers, it is unnecessary. See Robin Thelwall, "Lexicostatistical Relations Between Nubian, Daju and Dinka," Extrait des Etudes Nubiennes, Colloque de Chantilly, 2-6 Juillet 1975, 273.

I’d also note that dinka and daju share the same proto ancestor with Nubian. There was a distinction between a Southern eastern sudanic branch which included nilotic and daju languages and a north eastern sudanic language group that included Nubian, but the south eastern sudanic langue’s has been shown to not be a real language family and that Nilotic and surmic might actually be more related to north eastern sudanic then the other “south east” sudanic languages are. The findings were made by Claude rilly. Who also backs this linguistic influence that the aldoian nubian language has n nilotic languages. He is also the guy who argues that Meroitic was nilo saharan just in case you were wondering.

 

[Bior]

There is also reason to believe that the alodian kingdom may have had an influence on dinka religion which certain scholars have described as having “abrahamic elements” in it.

I am, of course, well aware that Nuer religion is very unlike what we know in general about Negro religions. One cannot even say that it is a typical Nilotic religion. It is certainly very unlike the religion of the Anuak, of the Luo of Kenya, of the Acholi, of the Alur, or of the Shilluk. Indeed, only the religion of the Dinka can be said to have strongly marked affinities with it, and it can be further said that in some respects the religions of these two peoples resemble less other Negro religions than some of the historic religions. They have features which bring to mind the Hebrews of the Old Testament. Professor C. G. Seligman clearly sensed this, as his account of the Dinka and Nuer shows; and Miss Ray Huffman, an American Presbyterian missionary who spent many years among the Nuer, remarks that 'the missionary feels as if he were living in Old Testament times, and in a way this is true 1 When, therefore, I sometimes draw comparisons between Nuer and Hebrew conceptions, it is no mere whim but is because I myself find it helpful, and I think others may do so too, in trying to understand Nuer ideas to note this likeness to something with which we are ourselves familiar without being too intimately involved in it.

https://monoskop.org/images/8/8b/Evans_Pritchard_E_E_Nuer_religion_1956.pdf

Seeing that this is something that is exclusive to dinka nuer, not only among other African, but even among other nilotes….. I think we may be on to something, lol.

Besides all of this however, there have also been some text that allege connections that Dinka’s had/have with alodian Nubians. And other groups that were involved with medieval Nubia in that area .

Historical accounts, including manuscripts from the 18th century, reference the Dinka's ancestral ties to the Alwan Nubians, with early modern Sudanese manuscript writers noting that they are derived from the "Anag",[3] a term used by Spaulding to describe eastern sudanic speaking peoples who were a part of the kingdom of Alodia.

Heres a page from one of besiwcks books explaining this

claims to date back to 1738) and another by the Northern Sudanese writer, Muhammad walad Dolib the younger, both quote the thesis of the four-teenth-century North African traveler Ibn Khaldun that the Dinka were ancestrally connected to the Danagla (Nubians). Harold MacMichael's volume A History of the Arabs, comprising oral data collected from various Northern Sudanese peoples asserts that the "Gankay are Anag from among the Zing." I interpret "Gankay" as Dinka, and indeed in much travel literature they are referred to as Ganka, Janga, Jonga, and so on. Further, "Anag" in Sudanese literature refers to Nubian peoples and O. G. S. Crawford also suggests that the Anag ("Anak") are Nubian fugitives who fled before the onslaught of the Arabs after the destruction of the far southern Nubian kingdom of Alwa (also referred to as Soba).2 This account corresponds with Dinka oral histories which claim that they fled south out of the Gezira many centuries ago to escape slavers, and corresponds to the older Nubian geographer's accounts mentioned above.

Another manuscript collected by MacMichael refers to the medieval period of the Funj Kingdom of Sennar (1504-1821) in the Gezira. Here there is evidence that the Dinka and Shilluk remained a strong presence within the kingdom's periphery. Dekin, an early Funj sultan (1562-1577) claimed that his brothers were "Shilluk, Dinka and Ibrahim."23

The nineteenth-century genealogies of the Hameg, the successors to the Funj sultans at Jebel Gule in the Gezira, mention Shilluk, Dinka, and Kira (the ruling elite of the Sultanate of Dar Fur in the far west) as having a common ancestor with the Funj, the ruling elite of the Kingdom of Sinnar.

This ruling elite was of Nubian ancestry.24

British administrator Sir James Robertson collected oral histories of the late Funj period where it was claimed that the people of Abu El Dugu in the Gezira were indigenous and that "the mek [king) is always chosen, usually by heredity, from some eight families of Dinka who are said to have come from Teifa." It is recorded that early in the Egyptian colonial period

(1821-85) the Hameg, Dinka, and Hudur quarreled about the kingship of this region. However, the Dinka won and with the Hudur sat together as rulers in Abu El Dugu in the Gezira 25

https://archive.org/details/sudansbloodmemor0000besw

 

[Bior]

Here’s a book on the kingdom of Alwa talking about the different groups of alodia nubia.

B. The People of Alwa

It is clear from the descriptive evidence of Arab writers that Alwa was a polyethnic state. Assuming a broad pattern of continuity of adaptation to ecological conditions, and with our knowledge of the area subject to Alwa's domination, it is possible to infer the principal subsistence regimes of the mediaeval period. A survey of present populations will shed some light on the distribution of those of the past.

1. The Nile Nubians

These were the settled farming communities of the Nile valley from Abu Hamed in the north (including the Butana region) to a not-yet-definable point south of the confluence of the Blue Nile and the White Nile. This area has been referred to in this book as southem Nubia. The members of this group spoke Nubian languages, as noted from the historical and archaeological record alluded to earlier. This is also attested by the presence of numerous Nubian place names throughout southern Nubia. Due to the fragmentary nature of the archaeological evidence bearing upon the Nubian languages of mediaeval Alwa, their relations to other Nubian languages have not been established. Griffith, who was the first to study the Nubian languages spoken in mediaeval Alwa, suggested that they may represent different dialects from those of the northern part of the Sudan (Griffith, 1913).

2. The Hill Nubians

The homeland of the people today called the Hill Nubians seems to correspond to the region called al-Ahdin by Ibn Hawgal. These are the inhabitants of Jebel Haraza in northern Kordotan, and the northern Nuba mountains (i.e., J. Kaderu and Dilling) in southeastern Kordofan (see Map VIII. In addition, the region includes other groups, such as the Tagali and Talodi among many others, who speak languages which some

millet and sorghum. Ibn Hawgal specifically stated that these people possessed numerous cattle, horses and camels, and that gold and iron mining and trade existed.

3. The Beja

The Beja tribes of Beni-Amer and Hadendawa are at present nomadic pastoralists herding camels and cattle, living in the Sudanese border areas (i.e., the Baraka basin and the Atbara River area), while others live in Eri-trea. They speak the northern Cushitic language, Tu Bedawiet.

4. Eastern Sudanic Peoples

This group which Spaulding referred to as "Prenilote" (the Hamag or the Anag of the Fung era), includes the Berta, Koma, Gumuz, and Mao (see Map III). They occupy the upper reaches of the Blue Nile valley together with the adjacent slopes of the Ethiopian plateau to the east. They depend primarily upon horticulture for their subsistence. In addition to sorghum, the universal staple, they grow millet, okra, and sesame. Animal husbandry of cattle, goats, and sheep, provides an auxiliary source of liveli-hood. Above all, the region is famous for its gold mining activity.

5. The Arabs

At present, the mate Alub tople of the aremae the shat a sto the

ists herding camels and cattle in the district of Kassala and the eastern Butana (Ibn Hawqal, in Mus'ad, 1972).

https://archive.org/details/mohi-el-din-abdalla-zarroug-kingdom-of-alwa/mode/2up

 

[Diini23]

History of Sudan is varied, and not purely Cushitic/Eurasian admixed groups only or nilotes only like some afrocentrists would suggest. However there is a lot of misconceptions and fallacious assumptions in the regions history unfortunately.

 

[Bior]

Pretty much what I interpret all of this to mean is that the Dinka’s have certain reactions with the nilo saharan groups that they lived near in teh kingdom of alodia. And for those who may doubt this beause Dinka’s have low amounts of MENA admixture id say that it there were some quotes that said there was a difference between the alodia Nubians and more northern Nubians in placves like makuira and nobatea, describing teh former as “black Nuba’s” and the latter as “red nuba’s”. While I still. Beleieve there was people who had more mena admixture who lived in the kingdom of Alwa like the Jaali people for example, I think it just means that alodia had a more nile Saharan looking population dues to its geographic location and etc..

The form of nubian they spoke was even different also, it was actually less similar to nile Nubian and more similar to hill nubian and nubian spoken in Kordofan.

Here’s the quote anyways:

This is from sudan’ notes and records but there is so many version and editions of the book, im just gonna give it to you form here I found it, lol

When the Arabs, after the conquest of Egypt in the middle of she vit" century, turned their" attention southward to the Sudan, they found their way blocked bejond Aswan by the Christian Kingdom of Dongola, which extended upstream for some short distance beyond the junction of the Blue and White Niles.

The organization of this Kingdom was very loosely knit and its people were not homogeneous. The inhabilants of the southern districts were to all intents and purposes negroes: their northern neighbours, living in what are now the provinces of Halfa and Dongola, though much mixed with negro, appear to have had very much more in common with the ancient Egyptian element and to have represented in part the old red-black slock of the Nile valley.

In the extreme north of Nubia, round Aswan itself, the immigrant Arabs in the course of the following centuries amalgamated with the local Nubians, a process greally facilitated by the existence of a matrilinear system among the latter, for by judiciously marrying into the ruling family of Nubians the Arab ensured the power passing in a single generation lo bis own son.

This also talks about the spread of nubian languages into nubia and etc..

A_Nubian_Linguistic_Continuum_from_Darfur_and_Kordofan_to_the_Nile_Valley_in_Medieval_Sudan

 

[Bior]

Funj

The funj were a people who were signifcant who the dinka interested with during their migrations south form the gezira who may have lived near present day Shilluk and dinka territory, frm around Malakal to renk, teh fought t with the Shilluk ad dinka and were pushed northwards and the place were they lived before this happened also showed some connection to teh general alodia area with pottery similar to sites like Jebel Moya and being described as “post meroitic” and whatnot, but the association with funj is still isnt concrete and will require more research, but it is said that both dinka and Shilluk refer to teh archeological findings as “funj” posttery and that they dont associate someone the items with their own past. It talks about it in more detail here on page 59

https://southsudanmuseumnetwork.wor...aw-1982-culture-history-in-southern-sudan.pdf

Besides all of that tho im all out, from my own judgment, we can kinda tell that teh ancestors of Dinka’s and nilotes were involved with the Nile Valley kingdoms of nubia since the beginning, starting from the pre Kerma periods trading with the pre Kerma and a groups cultures, having the same ancestral origins with the meroitic speakers as eastern sudaincs, and lasting until the medieval Christian periods, while we dot know our role I can say that we weren’t a central part of the it all but it has been a significant part and influence on our prehistory, if you got questions abt anything just lmk. And thanks for reading through my whole thread/comment, lol

 

[Bior]

History of Sudan is varied, and not purely Cushitic/Eurasian admixed groups only or nilotes only like some afrocentrists would suggest. However there is a lot of misconceptions and fallacious assumptions in the regions history unfortunately.

yeah, times are really unfortunate but hopefully in the war ends so that in the future we'd be able to learn more