Can Somali pride get in the way of reality?

[OmarLittle]

So yesterday @Reiko posted a thread called "Somali women have kids just to have kids". Now yes, the title was a generalization, but I think it was a click-bait. But, she stated "Somali women who have 9,10,11 kids are the most miserable women ever" - so she was talking about Somali women who have many kids, but seem to miserable.

But, some in the comment section were saying this was bashing Somali women. So if the reality is that Somali women who tend to have many kids, on welfare and those kids then become a menace to society, we should ignore that for Somali pride?

Depending on your political views, do you believe every single reason the average Black-American community is doing horrible is because of white racism or cultural problems within these communities? So if Somalis go down the wrong path, if some continue to ignore reality, who are you going to blame then?

 

[ebimomo]

Calling Somali women uneducated and illiterate if it's not called bashing then what?

1) There are Somali women who have lots of children that go on to benefit society
2) Why are Somali women being BLAMED for giving BIRTH when it takes TWO to make a baby, why is all the blame solely on Somali Women????
3) That thread was disgusting and infested with human trash, hypocrisy and double standards.

 

[OmarLittle]

Calling Somali women uneducated and illiterate if it's not called bashing then what?

1) There are Somali women who have lots of children that go on to benefit society
2) Why are Somali women being BLAMED for giving BIRTH when it takes TWO to make a baby, why is all the blame solely on Somali Women????
3) That thread was disgusting and infested with human trash, hypocrisy and double standards.

1) If they were generalizing, that's wrong. Living in the United States, traveling around and experiences with some family members, many are uneducated and can't speak or write the hosting country's language even after being here for 10-20+ years.
2) You're absolutely right, it takes two to make a baby. However, if he was a piece shit the first time, why breed 5 more with him?
3) Yes, some were horrible and some were ignoring certain issues with the community.

 

[Mohamud]

Depending on your political views, do you believe every single reason the average Black-American community is doing horrible is because of white racism or cultural problems within these communities?

It's a mixed bag

And let's not lump all people of African decent. Some of them aren't struggling overseas and have some modicum of hope in their country of origin (I for one don't think our situation is hopeless). But yes, Somalis need to become more self-serving in their interests and by that I mean gaining autonomy in both the workforce and economic standing. It's up to this growing generation to become as educated as possible and to make sure our image isn't distorted.

Basically every Somali person needs to act with the agency that every action they take will have a tiny ripple effect (or a gigantic one) on their ethnic group. If we do that, then I'm confident everything will work out. So quite frankly, once we get positive, and genuinely thought provoking leaders, I think it is up to them to instill a brand new culture of self-awareness. And to rid the more disturbing issues that plague us.

Also as much as I don't enjoy the faraax vs xalimo debates, the women of our society (in the current 18-35 age group) are straight up slaughtering. Absolutely incredible numbers of degrees and employment in the medical field. So while it's easy to pick on the older ladies for a busted mentality (that they share with their male counterparts), it ain't permanent. You'll see, sxb. We're gonna do alright.

 

[Dhabaal]

@OmarLittle
How do you verify her claim? Is there a solid survey tallying Somali womens life satisfaction in regards to how many kids they have?

Furthermore can you give grounded informed arguments about the advantages and disadvantages? There is no causation between number kids you and the kids becoming menacing.

In fact i would argue that in general the number of kids you have isn't viewed as burdensome, but rather an advantage.

7 Advantages Of Having More Than 3 Children
http://wmnlife.com/relationships/7-advantages-of-having-more-than-3-children/5

Here are some factors in why people have larger families(Somalis included). here are some
1. Less expensive
In a large family, sharing, hand-me-downs and martinis are all essential. ESSENTIAL.There are limited resources, no matter what your income level is, and every member of the family must do his or her part to ensure there’s enough to go around.

2. Get support when you grow older
Instead of having organization or elderly centers to take care of you. You will have your family to take care of you and you will be less lonely.

3. Sense of responsibility and developing character

Big families help us build character and sense of responsibility. As a rule, older children are in charge of the younger generation when the parents are at work..

Pride isn't even the issue, this more of an issue against slander and making unsubstantiated claims. I suggest you and other here refrain from making them.

 

[OmarLittle]

It's a mixed bag

And let's not lump all people of African decent. Some of them aren't struggling overseas and have some modicum of hope in their country of origin (I for one don't think our situation is hopeless). But yes, Somalis need to become more self-serving in their interests and by that I mean gaining autonomy in both the workforce and economic standing. It's up to this growing generation to become as educated as possible and to make sure our image isn't distorted.

Basically every Somali person needs to act with the agency that every action they take will have a tiny ripple effect (or a gigantic one) on their ethnic group. If we do that, then I'm confident everything will work out. So quite frankly, once we get positive, and genuinely thought provoking leaders, I think it is up to them to instill a brand new culture of self-awareness. And to rid the more disturbing issues that plague us.

Also as much as I don't enjoy the faraax vs xalimo debates, the women of our society (in the current 18-35 age group) are straight up slaughtering. Absolutely incredible numbers of degrees and employment in the medical field. So while it's easy to pick on the older ladies for a busted mentality (that they share with their male counterparts), it ain't permanent. You'll see, sxb. We're gonna do alright.

Thanks for the fair and balance feedback. If I remember, you're from Canada right? Anyways, I was watching the IntegrationTV on YouTube and they said something like 60%-70% of the Somali female HS graduates in Canada go onto college compared to the Somali males at 30% - if Somalis want to marry each other, wouldn't that be a problem. Just for the males that are not going onto college, isn't that a problem?

Basically, my criticism was if we had objective stats that were problematic, we shouldn't bury them and act like everything is great. Yeah, I live in Seattle, WA and only the females are in school or doing great to be honest. I see hundreds of Somali dudes on Twitter from city going into gangs and having money and hoes. I see problems, and I see people with pride lool.

 

[ebimomo]

1) If they were generalizing, that's wrong. Living in the United States, traveling around and experiences with some family members, many are uneducated and can't speak or write the hosting country's language even after being here for 10-20+ years.
2) You're absolutely right, it takes two to make a baby. However, if he was a piece shit the first time, why breed 5 more with him?
3) Yes, some were horrible and some were ignoring certain issues with the community.

1) That's through no fault of their own, they came to the west and were forced into their current lifestyle, that of cooking, cleaning and looking after the household. There are so many Somali mothers who even attend English courses during their free time but it's not their fault that they're unable to speak the language fluently, when do they even have the time to leave the house to practice their English skills? Going to the supermarket doesn't count, learning a second language at their age isn't easy either, in fact studies suggest the older you grow the harder learning a language becomes. Honestly, I feel very sickened at how people are attacking Somali mothers like that, a bunch of ungrateful yutes, these are the same women who cared for you and looked after you, who carried you for nine fucking months, the violation is too real.

2) Maybe he wasn't a piece of shit, maybe they just wanted a big family? Have you stopped to consider that?

3) The only thing I can say is that you youngsters really should watch how you speak about our Somali mothers, where is the correlation in having a large family and having children who are a nuisance to society?

 

[Mohamud]

Thanks for the fair and balance feedback. If I remember, you're from Canada right? Anyways, I was watching the IntegrationTV on YouTube and they said something like 60%-70% of the Somali female HS graduates in Canada go onto college compared to the Somali males at 30% - if Somalis want to marry each other, wouldn't that be a problem. Just for the males that are not going onto college, isn't that a problem?

Basically, my criticism was if we had objective stats that were problematic, we shouldn't bury them and act like everything is great. Yeah, I live in Seattle, WA and only the females are in school or doing great to be honest. I see hundreds of Somali dudes on Twitter from city going into gangs and having money and hoes. I see problems, and I see people with pride lool.

My issue is those Somali girls marrying out when they have no viable options in the men. It's maddening tbh.

I don't think these losers understand how much they are crippling their futures. If you don't wanna go to uni that's fine. Plenty of people find success without it, and small business in this country need to grow as it is. But stay away from the crime. Shit they give us a bad name in Toronto sometimes.

And I highly doubt the number is 30% for dudes. Definitely half go on to university (at some point because some legit take a two year gap year), but females are for real at 70% and that's a goddamn problem. But again, Somalis need to create opportunities for each other. If you graduate your goal should be to influence your people as much as possible. Take that young Liban under your wing and show him the ropes.

Too many people in our community are aloof and apathetic.

 

[OmarLittle]

@OmarLittle
How do you verify her claim? Is there a solid survey tallying Somali womens life satisfaction in regards to how many kids they have?

Furthermore can you give grounded informed arguments about the advantages and disadvantages? There is no causation between number kids you and the kids becoming menacing.

In fact i would argue that in general the number of kids you have isn't viewed as burdensome, but rather an advantage.

7 Advantages Of Having More Than 3 Children
http://wmnlife.com/relationships/7-advantages-of-having-more-than-3-children/5

Here are some factors in why people have larger families(Somalis included). here are some
1. Less expensive
In a large family, sharing, hand-me-downs and martinis are all essential. ESSENTIAL.There are limited resources, no matter what your income level is, and every member of the family must do his or her part to ensure there’s enough to go around.

2. Get support when you grow older
Instead of having organization or elderly centers to take care of you. You will have your family to take care of you and you will be less lonely.

3. Sense of responsibility and developing character

Big families help us build character and sense of responsibility. As a rule, older children are in charge of the younger generation when the parents are at work..

Pride isn't even the issue, this more of an issue against slander and making unsubstantiated claims. I suggest you and other here refrain from making them.

I never made a claim or make an objective argument that all Somali women bad problems with more kids. My argument was that if someone here said they see Somalis with many children and they're suffering, we shouldn't ignore and say "well most are doing great, let's move on".

My example of kids being menace to society - was from the ghettos of America. If an adult can't take care of one child, you're telling that the rest won't be a menace to society? My view is subjective, meaning I'm speaking from the observations I see in my community and the amount of Somali young males going into gangs. These kids grew up with single moms or deadbeat dads. They never had any emotional support or any support honestly. They were made fun of in HS because of the clothes they wore because their mother had 5 other kids to take care.

Secondly, why are you comparing whites to Somalis? The happy whites in those pictures look middle-class. The average Somali in the U.S is nowhere near middle class and whites have 2.18 kids - where Somalis have 4.53 in the U.S.

I don't get the "less expensive" part. Sharing? Is there mathematically evidence for just a thing? What's everyone is going to do in their "part" to make sure everything "goes around". I don't see the argument there. Again I don't see why it takes 7 kids to take care of two parents when they get old.

My main arugument was that this what I'm seeing in my community. I come from a small family and things are going great, where the families who mostly had many children are suffering due to the massive responsibility they took on from their decisions. And lastly, it's disrespectful to come to a country, have all those children and be on welfare. I don't see how anyone can defend that.

No, I won't refrain from saying anything, If I see a problem. Sorry, I don't have that much crazy Somali nationalism some of yall tend to have.

 

[Dhabaal]

Basically, my criticism was if we had objective stats that were problematic, we shouldn't bury them and act like everything is great. Yeah, I live in Seattle, WA and only the females are in school or doing great to be honest. I see hundreds of Somali dudes on Twitter from city going into gangs and having money and hoes. I see problems, and I see people with pride lool.

Show me the stats or surveys that show Somali mothers are miserable due to having many kids. And i should mention twitter and IntegrationTV aren't really reliable sources.

@Mohamud
Dis-proportionality you see between Somali men and women in educational achievement. Are due to differences in socialization.

''Without the social capital that girls are more likely to have in school and at home( i.e more monotering at home, better relationships with teachers, frendships that are intellectual and more supportive of academics and less exposure to prevelant cuture.) boys were more vurnerable to the urban vices (gang-culture, drugs, alcohol,etc) that often surrounds them both inside and outside of school.. Due to such risks , boys were more at risk for developing an adversial or oppisitional identity toward school.''

It isn't because of culture or Somali values. . Strictly due to Horrible Socialization they receive in the western world which influences them to go in the wrong path.

@OmarLittle I think you should read this study to get a bigger picture http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/45637/Basford_Letitia%20July%202008.pdf?sequence=1

'''(2002) finds that Somali youth are destined to “suffer.” Forman states (pp.100-101):

These [Somali] teens often stake out deliberately rebellious positions in which Hip Hop is strategically influential, though in doing so they are signaling to their peers that they are “cool,” unafraid of possible repercussions, and willing to test the system for flaws or weaknesses. Despite their worldly and often tragic experiences, however, most Somali youths generally lack the knowledge, savvy, or “cultural capital” (Bourdieu, 1984) that is valued among their North American teen peers. Many of these recent immigrants are thus destined to suffer from a dual deficit, in the first instance due to their perceived inability to cope in the standard school curriculum in the eyes of adult authorities, and in the second instance, due to their lack of innate hipness in the eyes of their classmates.''

 

[OmarLittle]

Show me the stats or surveys that show Somali mothers are miserable due to having many kids. And i should mention twitter and IntegrationTV aren't really reliable sources.

@Mohamud
Dis-proportionality you see between Somali men and women in educational achievement. Are due to differences in socialization.

''Without the social capital that girls are more likely to have in school and at home( i.e more monotering at home, better relationships with teachers, frendships that are intellectual and more supportive of academics and less exposure to prevelant cuture.) boys were more vurnerable to the urban vices (gang-culture, drugs, alcohol,etc) that often surrounds them both inside and outside of school.. Due to such risks , boys were more at risk for developing an adversial or oppisitional identity toward school.''

It isn't because of culture or Somali values. . Strictly due to Horrible Socialization they receive in the western world which influences them to go in the wrong path.

@OmarLittle I think you should read this study to get a bigger picture http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/45637/Basford_Letitia%20July%202008.pdf?sequence=1

'''(2002) finds that Somali youth are destined to “suffer.” Forman states (pp.100-101):

These [Somali] teens often stake out deliberately rebellious positions in which Hip Hop is strategically influential, though in doing so they are signaling to their peers that they are “cool,” unafraid of possible repercussions, and willing to test the system for flaws or weaknesses. Despite their worldly and often tragic experiences, however, most Somali youths generally lack the knowledge, savvy, or “cultural capital” (Bourdieu, 1984) that is valued among their North American teen peers. Many of these recent immigrants are thus destined to suffer from a dual deficit, in the first instance due to their perceived inability to cope in the standard school curriculum in the eyes of adult authorities, and in the second instance, due to their lack of innate hipness in the eyes of their classmates.''

Jesus, I never made the claim their were miserable. I also told you that my claims were coming from my community just like @Reiko was most likely talking about her community. Twitter is reliable if it shows exactly what I'm talking about. No one got the time to look into a community of 145,000 in the United States, they're more focused on the Mexicans. I wish they were studies done though. I will look into that study.

 

[Dhabaal]

I never made a claim or make an objective argument that all Somali women bad problems with more kids. My argument was that if someone here said they see Somalis with many children and they're suffering, we shouldn't ignore and say "well most are doing great, let's move on".

Thats not an ''objective argument'' because there is no evidence,logic, info or even reason behind it. To say Somali mothers are suffering to due to having more kids is a Subjective claim which is easily dismiss-able. It based on @Reiko 's personal experiences ,isolated anecdotes and prejudice opinion.

My example of kids being menace to society - was from the ghettos of America. If an adult can't take care of one child, you're telling that the rest won't be a menace to society? My view is subjective, meaning I'm speaking from the observations I see in my community and the amount of Somali young males going into gangs. These kids grew up with single moms or deadbeat dads. They never had any emotional support or any support honestly. They were made fun of in HS because of the clothes they wore because their mother had 5 other kids to take care

.

There is no correlation causation linking how many kids you have with the likelihood of them becoming menaces. There is a greater percentage of your kids becoming menaces if you grow up in poverty, as in you example ''ghettos ''regardless if you have 1 kid or 2 kids or gazillion of them.

Social-economic status have more to do with kids growing up in adverse circumstances. Most of this has to do with disadvantages Somali refugees face in the west.

1)First we are not Self-selected immigrant groups unlike Asians and West Africans Parents which come to the west with money and are highly educated. We are not self-selected we are refugees . 2) Second lack of Ethnic capital (In form of middle class learning institutions,etc.) The fact that we are First generation people with no previous substantial diaspora presence makes unable to pool from established social networks and lack of mentorship. 3)Thirdly Somali refugees are dumped into ghettos and bad neighborhoods on arrival, which create adverse environmental circumstances for kids.

There are more factors i could enlist. But those are the most prominent once in regards to this.

Secondly, why are you comparing whites to Somalis? The happy whites in those pictures look middle-class. The average Somali in the U.S is nowhere near middle class and whites have 2.18 kids - where Somalis have 4.53 in the U.S.

I don't get the "less expensive" part. Sharing? Is there mathematically evidence for just a thing? What's everyone is going to do in their "part" to make sure everything "goes around". I don't see the argument there. Again I don't see why it takes 7 kids to take care of two parents when they get old.

I am not comparing Somalis to Whites. Why are trying to misrepresent my stance? That was to show the general reason why people have more kids and the advantages that are associated with it.

Let me elaborate on ''Less expensive'' . Hand things down and Sharing, child benefits etc. The reasoning behind it is that their will be more co-operation with more kids and help around, which is a cost deficit.

Why having big families is good for you (and cheaper)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mo...big-families-is-good-for-you-and-cheaper.html

My main arugument was that this what I'm seeing in my community. I come from a small family and things are going great, where the families who mostly had many children are suffering due to the massive responsibility they took on from their decisions. And lastly, it's disrespectful to come to a country, have all those children and be on welfare. I don't see how anyone can defend that.

No, I won't refrain from saying anything, If I see a problem. Sorry, I don't have that much crazy Somali nationalism some of yall tend to have.

Come with arguments that are backed with reasoning and information. You can't just potray your anecdotal personal experiences as proof or evidence that smaller families are better off. That itself is a fallacy.

Read and then offer an informed opinion. Avoid replying to an issue with vitriol and rhetoric.

 

[Dhabaal]

Jesus, I never made the claim their were miserable. I also told you that my claims were coming from my community just like @Reiko was most likely talking about her community. Twitter is reliable if it shows exactly what I'm talking about. No one got the time to look into a community of 145,000 in the United States, they're more focused on the Mexicans. I wish they were studies done though. I will look into that study.

WTF you think Social media is a reliable source? wtf. In what way is mass media an holistic representation of reality? You do realize populous media of any kind only showcases a select demographic of people.

What is reliable is academic studies which survey, interview, analyze the different issues and discrepancies in regard to Somali diaspora

There are studies done on the UK and Minnesotan, Canadian community i just posted it for you to read it. It even touched upon the factoring reasons behind the disproportionate differences between men and women in educational achievement.

You should read it----->> http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/45637/Basford_Letitia%20July%202008.pdf?sequence=1

There are others done by Somali academics as well. but this one is more comparative.

 

[OmarLittle]

WTF you think Social media is a reliable source? wtf. In what way is mass media an holistic representation of reality? You do realize populous media of any kind only showcases a select demographic of people.

What is reliable is academic studies which survey, interview, analyze the different issues and discrepancies in regard to Somali diaspora

There are studies done on the UK and Minnesotan, Canadian community i just posted it for you to read it. It even touched upon the factoring reasons behind the disproportionate differences between men and women in educational achievement.

You should read it----->> http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/45637/Basford_Letitia%20July%202008.pdf?sequence=1

There are others done by Somali academics as well. but this one is more comparative.

Dude, did I offend you or something? You misunderstood the point of this whole thread.

The point was that if someone makes a thread talking about the reality of their community - they shouldn't be consider someone bashing people.

I never made an objective claim about Somalis on here, other than talking about my own community. TWITTER is reality as people document their own fucking lives. What do studies have to do with thugs on Twitter? Do you want me to find a study for you on gangs in the United States? Would that be REALITY for you?

You gave me links on studies that nothing to do with what I was saying. Did I talk about the schools these kids went to? NO. You just brought studies about certain Somali/East Africans on their schooling in Minnesota, Finland and the UK. You're arguing these are REASON on WHY they might be fucking up.

Again, I'm talking about my COMMUNITY and you're talking the GENERAL Somali community.

 

[Dhabaal]

I did not take offense to anything, braw. I would appreciate you didn''t project your assertions at me.

All i was trying to do was correct you and give sufficient answer to the topic. You can talk about anything as long as you keep it civil, respectful and others have ever right to disagree with it.

But to make vitriolic unsubstantiated claims not grounded in facts, or information is slanderous. Such us ''Somali mothers are miserable due having more kids'' or the emphasis on ''Welfare benefits'' as deeply pejorative.

The studies i posted are relevant because @Mohamud and you brought up the differences in educational achievements of Somali men and women.
It does pertain to the general Somali community in regards to the youth in the west in explaining the experiences and realties they face.

So it is very relevant.

 

[OmarLittle]

I did not take offense to anything, braw. I would appreciate you didn''t project your assertions at me.

All i was trying to do was correct you and give sufficient answer to the topic. You can talk about anything as long as you keep it civil, respectful and others have ever right to disagree with it.

But to make vitriolic unsubstantiated claims not grounded in facts, or information is slanderous. Such us ''Somali mothers are miserable due having more kids'' or the emphasis on ''Welfare benefits'' as deeply pejorative.

The studies i posted are relevant because @Mohamud and you brought up the differences in educational achievements of Somali men and women.
It does pertain to the general Somali community in regards to the youth in the west in explaining the experiences and realties they face.

So it is very relevant.

Awesome. I originally thought the reason you were raining these studies on me was that you were offend and thought I was talking about the general Somali community, so I apologize.

Yes, I agree with you on the fact that people shouldn't just spew things that are not in facts. I think she was did that for click-bait reasons as for the title.

On me bringing up the Canadian stats on college attendance, that was hyperbole. I was just saying if those things were true, then Xalimos got shortage of Farahs - income wise.

 

[VixR]

Somalis have false pride. Actually not sure if it's "show" or genuine, but it's for sure unwarranted.

 

[Dhabaal]

Awesome. I originally thought the reason you were raining these studies on me was that you were offend and thought I was talking about the general Somali community, so I apologize.

Yes, I agree with you on the fact that people shouldn't just spew things that are not in facts. I think she was did that for click-bait reasons as for the title.

On me bringing up the Canadian stats on college attendance, that was hyperbole. I was just saying if those things were true, then Xalimos got shortage of Farahs - income wise.

No these studies are valuable in so it will give people the general idea. Perhaps some of the stuff mention on there people here can relate to it.

I don't know why that is odd to post them, it is pretty normal on most discussion boards. It shows that you are not speaking from your ass.

 

[Dhabaal]

Somalis have false pride. Actually not sure if it's "show" or genuine, but it's for sure unwarranted.

I disagree.

It depends on how you define ''Pride'' and what definition Somalis abide by. Somalis have an egalitarian ''Ethos'' in which the general notion is every Somali is deserving of dignity and to be treated with dignity. Most importantly expected to act with dignity.

 

[VixR]

I disagree.

It depends on how you define ''Pride'' and what definition Somalis abide by. Somalis have an egalitarian ''Etho'' in which the general notion is every Somali is deserving of dignity and to be treated with dignity. Most importantly expected to act with dignity.

I'm not questioning anyone's dignity, but the prevalent, airy sense of unwarranted pride. If you are prideful in our current state, and that is what I see, there is nothing to propel you to do better. You are quite simply stuck.