Can Somali pride get in the way of reality?

[Dhabaal]

I'm am not questioning anyone's dignity, but the airy sense of pride. If you are prideful in our current state, and that is what I see, there is nothing to propel you to do better. You are quite simply stuck.

Again the word ''Pride'' has many definitions and interpretations . I explained to you the definition Somalis culturally abide by which is an egalitarian understanding of deserving of right in dignity and to act with dignity. Hardly a false notion.

No human is complacent with a set position they are in especially in a position which is rock bottom, but what do you expect them to do? lose their self worth, wallow in self-pity and create a defeatist mentality.

One thing we are universally acknowledged for is our resiliency.

 

[OmarLittle]

No these studies are valuable in so it will give people the general idea. Perhaps some of the stuff mention on there people here can relate to it.

I don't know why that is odd to post them, it is pretty normal on most discussion boards. It shows that you are not speaking from your ass.

I didn't find it odd that you posted studies to back your claims. I originally thought you were posting them because you were offended. We misunderstood each other the whole time. We were addressing different things. Anyways, thanks for those studies.

 

[VixR]

Again the word ''Pride'' has many definitions and interpretations . I explained to you the definition Somalis culturally abide by which is an egalitarian understanding of deserving of right in dignity and to act with dignity. Hardly a false notion.

No human is complacent with a set position they are in especially in a position which is rock bottom, but what do you expect them to do? lose their self worth, wallow in self-pity and create a defeatist mentality.

One thing we are universally acknowledged for is our resiliency.

I think u and I are speaking from different ends. Like I said, I do not question anyone's right to dignity, which is the least a human deserves, but I question the lofty sense of pride I see which assumes a sense of superiority or merit that simply doesn't exist, that isn't in line with reality. I expect acknowledgement of our current situation, and to strive to back up this lofty sense of pride with something of note that would warrant it., To be prideful in such a state is problematic in the sense that you're happy whether you're top or bottom heavy, i.e no motivation.

 

[Dhabaal]

I think u and I are speaking from different ends. Like I said, I do not question anyone's right to dignity, which is the least a human deserves, but I question the lofty sense of pride I see which assumes a sense of superiority or merit that simply doesn't exist, that isn't in line with reality. I expect acknowledgement of our current situation, and to strive to back up this lofty sense of pride with something of note that would warrant it.,

There two things wrong with what you are asserting.

1) First its to assume ''Pride'' is directly synonymous with sense of superiority.

Which is incorrect as Ive explained the term ''Pride''' has multiple meanings and interpretations. The definition i am leaning on is Dignity which in turn informs a notion of self-respect, a sense of self-esteem or nobility.

This is important to emphasize as it often mistakingly conflated with Superiority. Having the pleasure or satisfaction in belonging to one self is not ,the same as thinking you are superior to someone else.


2) Second to assume Somali ''Pride'' means Superiority or inflated sense of worth.

I like to expand on it with a Somali proverb '' Kibirka waa lagu kufaa''' (Inflated pride brings disaster). It is a widely stressed and known saying which has applications within Somali society.

Someone bragging or acting with an inflated sense of self worth is actually frowned upon.

 

[VixR]

There two things wrong with what you are asserting.

1) First its to assume ''Pride'' is directly synonymous with sense of superiority.

Which is incorrect as Ive explained the term ''Pride''' has multiple meanings and interpretations. The definition i am leaning on is Dignity which in turn informs a notion of self-respect, a sense of self-esteem or nobility.

This is important to emphasize as it often conflated with Superiority. Having the pleasure or satisfaction in belonging to one self is not ,the same as thinking you are superior to someone else.


2) Second to assume Somali ''Pride'' means Superiority or inflated sense of worth.

I like to expand on it with a Somali proverb '' Kibirka waa lagu kufaa''' (Inflate pride brings disaster). It is a widely stressed and known saying which has applications within Somali society.

Someone bragging or acting inflated sense of self worth is actually frowned upon.

I am not assuming anything. The pride I speak of is not one of dignity, as I've specified several times now.

 

[Dhabaal]

I am not assuming anything. The pride I speak of is not one of dignity, as I've specified several times now.

You think term ''Pride'' is synonymous with a sense of superiority that is the assumption. I explained it did not as it term itself has many definition and how false it is also to assume the Somali concept of ''Pride'' means feeling superior to others. Which in fact it does not.

 

[VixR]

You think term ''Pride'' is synonymous with a sense of superiority that is the assumption. I explained it did not as it term itself has many definition and how false it is also to assume the Somali concept of ''Pride'' means feeling superior to others. Which in fact it does not.

I'm not debating the definition terms, but the form of pride I see, which as I've specified is not one of harmless dignity that you describe (for if it were I would not view it as problematic), but one that assumes a sense of superiority and merit where there isn't much.

 

[Dhabaal]

I'm not debating the definition terms, but the form of pride I see, which as I've specified is not one of harmless dignity that you describe (for if it were I would not view it as problematic), but one that assumes a sense of superiority and merit where there isn't much.

Of course you are not debating anything you are just assuming. Projecting your assertions as universal fact.

You are still wrongfully assuming that Somali ''Pride'' means feeling superior or having inflated sense of worth. And all you have to substantiate that is personal experience and opinion '''but the form of pride ''I see''' telling me about what you see and use a generalized wording.

 

[VixR]

Of course you are not debating anything you are just assuming. Projecting your assertions as universal fact.

You are still wrongfully assuming that Somali ''Pride'' means feeling superior or having inflated sense of worth. And all you have to substantiate that is personal experience and opinion '''but the form of pride ''I see''' telling me about what you see and use a generalized wording.

I don't know how long I can continue to repeat myself, so I'll stop myself here.

 

[Dhabaal]

I don't know how many times I can continue to repeat myself, so I'll stop myself here.

You are only seeking what agrees with your own pre-conceived belief system. So you continuously try to rephrase your own stance with no consideration for other viewpoints.

A Classic case of confirmation bias

 

[VixR]

You are only seeking what agrees with your own pre-conceived belief system. So you continuously try to rephrase your own stance with no consideration for other viewpoints.

A Classic case of confirmation bias

I didn't fail to consider your viewpoint, it was irrelevant to my statement. Dignity is one thing (I do not have a problem with), superiority is quite another (on the opposite end of the spectrum, in fact).

 

[Dhabaal]

I didn't fail to consider your viewpoint, it was irrelevant to my statement. Dignity is one thing (I do not have a problem with), superiority is quite another (on the opposite end of the spectrum, in fact).

Yes did not consider my my view as in how i explained that Somali pride is not based on the notion of superiority as you claim it.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and hatred for/insulting your people.

 

[Dhabaal]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and hatred for/insulting your people.

You have noticed it too, how they try to mask hatred/insults by labeling it as ''truth'' or ''criticism''. Nothing is truth unless it is balanced. It's like their source material is Reddit,4-chan or stormfront and consiously scout for pre-opinion about Somalis via white wing neo-con media and Western oriental writers.

Empty rhetoric that appeals to the emotions of the populous, has no loyalty to comprehension and tangiblity.

You would think with all the education floating around that these so called ''Western diasporians'' as a whole would have a high regard for basic common sense-- such as Read and then offer an informed opinion. Avoid replying to an issue with vitriol and rhetoric.

 

[dhegdheer]

We should be able to discuss issues that plague our community. How else are we suppose to move past them if people aren't able to confront them?
I don't see the point of bringing op Somali women who chose to have ten kids. What about the ones who don't? or the ones not aware of other options? It's just effectively silencing them by going "oh heble yo heble chose to have this amount of kids stop generalizing!!1"

Show me the stats or surveys that show Somali mothers are miserable due to having many kids. And i should mention twitter and IntegrationTV aren't really reliable sources.

@Mohamud
Dis-proportionality you see between Somali men and women in educational achievement. Are due to differences in socialization.

''Without the social capital that girls are more likely to have in school and at home( i.e more monotering at home, better relationships with teachers, frendships that are intellectual and more supportive of academics and less exposure to prevelant cuture.) boys were more vurnerable to the urban vices (gang-culture, drugs, alcohol,etc) that often surrounds them both inside and outside of school.. Due to such risks , boys were more at risk for developing an adversial or oppisitional identity toward school.''

It isn't because of culture or Somali values. . Strictly due to Horrible Socialization they receive in the western world which influences them to go in the wrong path.

I disagree with this it's disingenuous to lay all blame on western culture. Somali culture have some unsavory bits as well.
We are overly lenient in the way we raise boys. Boys are allowed more freedom whereas girls are held tight on a short leash, this combined with living in ghetto areas is a recipe for disaster.

The same amount of scrutiny needs to be leveled at guys if we want them to succeed

 

[Dhabaal]

I disagree with this it's disingenuous to lay all blame on western culture. Somali culture have some unsavory bits as well.
We are overly lenient in the way we raise boys. Boys are allowed more freedom whereas girls are held tight on a short leash, this combined with living in ghetto areas is a recipe for disaster.

The same amount of scrutiny needs to be leveled at guys if we want them to succeed

I didn't lay the blame on western culture as a whole. Just highlighting due to our disadvantages we are more susceptible to drawing on bad surrounding influences and boys more at risk to this.

I agree with your point of leniency on boys is a contributing factor and it was mentioned. We need to monitor them more just as we do with girls.

''Without the social capital that girls are more likely to have in school and at home( i.e more monotering at home, better relationships with teachers, frendships that are intellectual and more supportive of academics and less exposure to prevelant cuture.) boys were more vurnerable to the urban vices (gang-culture, drugs, alcohol,etc) that often surrounds them both inside and outside of school.. Due to such risks , boys were more at risk for developing an adversial or oppisitional identity toward school.''
http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/45637/Basford_Letitia%20July%202008.pdf?sequence=1

So there is a difference in how they socialize (Socialization), which contributes to why girls perform better than boys academically. One thing also not mentioned is also how boys are peer-pressured into engaging in aforementioned urban vices. Girls have less exposure to this than boys.