Decline of mogadishu 17th-18th century

[Zak12]

It was still a shithole when the Arabs ran it. The real Mogadishu is when the Italians built it great architecture, clean streets, and aesthetics. View attachment 355093

Are you seriously praising a couple of churches as aesthetics? Lmao.

And no, the Italians didn't built anything or created its beauty. It was Somalis who made Mogadishu known as the pearl of the Indian ocean thanks to its coral washed buildings, a tradition that is obviously not from the Italians. The city was always safe and clean and the Italians did nothing to really improve it.

And size wise, the city remained the same after the Italians left. It was Siad Barre who enlarged Mogadishu and made it into a proper modern city.

Top is Mogadishu under the Italians. Bottom is Mogadishu under Barre.

 

[Juliet]

It was still a shithole when the Arabs ran it. The real Mogadishu is when the Italians built it great architecture, clean streets, and aesthetics. View attachment 355093

when did Arabs run it?

 

[Farah717]

when did Arabs run it?

Mogadishu was a Swahili/Arab trade station. It wasn't built by Somalis. We where nomadic in the countryside.

 

[Zak12]

Mogadishu was a Swahili/Arab trade station. It wasn't built by Somalis. We where nomadic in the countryside.

Can we please stop peddling this myth already? That contradicts literally every piece of historical and archeological evidence of the city.

The swahili theories are outdated bunk pseudo history. There was already Somalis living on the Southern coast all the way down to the Lamu Archipelago by the time they met Swahili speakers in Northern Kenya that was moving north and Swahili speakers didn't reach mainland Somalia.

There is updated linguistic evidence that shows this:
When Northern Swahili met Southern Somali
View attachment 353256

Then we have the perpilus historical trading document and archeological evidence that show the whole coast was settled by natives more than 2 thousands years back that carried out a similar agro-pastoral lifestyle and trading.


Funny he says the coastal cities were not developed by desert people when you consider the fact that the coast of Mogadishu and Barawa is a literal desert covered in sand dunes and no real immediate zero resources and it's immediate surroundings are unsuitable for cultivation.

The interior is actually fertile with forests, grassland and woodland and rivers.

The coastal villages, towns and cities were developed as a commercial outlet for the interior and it's the interior agro-pastoral population that would develop it and open up for trade .
View attachment 353251

View attachment 353252


The earliest mentions of Mogadishu/Merca in medieval sources paints the same picture, connecting it to it's hinterland and describing the 50 farming villages along the banks of the river.
View attachment 353254





Ibn Batuta's own writings actually supports early Somali settlements on the coast. He not only says the Sultan in Mogadishu is a Barbar and but also says that the citizens have many camels and sheep (indicating pastoral orientation), it actually gives the town a localized native picture.

His name is Abu Bakr son of shaikh 'Umar. He is in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi [Somali?], but he knows the Arabic tongue.

[to Mogadishu] a town endless in its size. Its people have many camels, of which they slaughter hundreds every day and they have many sheep. Its people are powerful merchants. In it are manufactured cloths named after it which have no rival, and are transported as far as Egypt and elsewhere.

He also gives a definition to what he means by ''Barbar'' and says that they are black people that inhabit the coast all the way down from Zeila and ends in Mogadishu and they have many camels and sheep. Same as how he describes mogadishu the city, so you can see it's just connected to a native cultural landscape. It's never described as an enclave by people from elsewhere

I arrived at the city of Zeila, the city of the Barbar, who are a people of the blacks; Shafi'i [following Sunni Muslim laws] by rite. Their country is a desert which extends for two months' journey, its beginning is at Zeila and its ending is at Mogadishu. Their livestock are camels and their sheep are famed for their fatness. The inhabitants are black in color and the majority are Rejecters

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He also provides linguistic evidence that Mogadishu population spoke Somali, when , mentions their words for certain fruits in the Maqdisihi language.
View attachment 353248


As well as describes Mogadishu organized under the Somali ''abaan'' institution which is a local commericial practice that is used from north to south.
View attachment 353249




The southern coastal Somali dialects are big proof they that they were majority inhabited by Somalis at a very early date.
View attachment 353255


Also there is zero evidence of any substratum. If Somalis came to a coastal area that was already inhabited by a seperate group of people later on. We would essentially be placing ourselves on top of them, like how Habeshas are influenced by South Arabian immigrants and now speak a semetic addstrate but with a cushitic substatum that points to Agaw and others were there before. Non of that is evidenced in the Southern Somali Dialects


View attachment 353258

 

[Juliet]

Mogadishu was a Swahili/Arab trade station. It wasn't built by Somalis. We where nomadic in the countryside.

Ok, I know what you're all about

 

[Idilinaa]

It was still a shithole when the Arabs ran it. The real Mogadishu is when the Italians built it great architecture, clean streets, and aesthetics. I know they are colonizers but I prefer Italian Mogadishu compared to Arab Mogadishu lol. Mogadishu peaked in Siad Barre and declined after Siad Barre.

Arabs never ran Mogadishu. It was operated by a city council run by locals who owned most property and commanded the trade.

This how Mogadishu looked like before the Italians and it was not a shithole: It had mosques, multi storied whitewashed dwellings, storage facilities, madrassas, work shops and forts, and a wall with 5 gates surrounding it.

Many of these buildings and some historic districts were actually bulldozed by the Italians themselves against the wishes of locals.

Italians inherited two quarters, these quarters already existed prior to them, so they didn't build anything important, or expand the city, other than one road for banana export and like a church, lighthouse or a gate in the middle of city, next to historic mosques and towers that are centuries old to the point it overshadows it.

The city map under the Italians: Showing Shingani and Hamarweyne,

This is a description of Mogadishu and coastal towns under the Italians. It was not clean nor aesthetic. Somalis complained because the didn't allow us to the develop or improve it

What built the city was actually the two Somali governments that came after . The Kacaan government cleaned most of the area,

They expanded the city into many new districts and started to clean it up. They built new landmarks, monuments, villas , housing, hotels, mosques, theaters, stadiums, streets ,roads and they planted trees, gardens etc

City map under Kacaan government: The government even repaired old districts that the Italians bulldozed.

I don't think there is any worse than colonial propaganda, they destroy things and make life worse. But then take credit for bringing civilization. Dad walaan.

 

[Shimbiris]

I don't think there is any worse than colonial propaganda, they destroy things and make life worse. But then take credit for bringing civilization. Dad walaan.

The West: Deliberately in-debt Somalia so that it's economy goes from food self-sufficient to dependent on aid and imports to simply feed its people; support militias run by greedy lunatics who want to destroy their own country; throw shit in the country's waters and loot its resources then destroy a local movement that actually managed to get things under control after the civil war and prolong the country's weakness and instability.

After all this, somehow paint yourselves as just trying to help Somalia, give Somalis shit in your countries when they're there as refugees and immigrants for being from a "failed state" and even have cadaan worshipping, brainwashed mothafuckas running around thinking things were "better under the Italians". Waalan doesn't cut it. The level of vile is indescribable.

 

[Farah717]

Arabs never ran Mogadishu. It was operated by a city council run by locals who owned most property and commanded the trade.

This how Mogadishu looked like before the Italians and it was not a shithole: It had mosques, multi storied whitewashed dwellings, storage facilities, madrassas, work shops and forts, and a wall with 5 gates surrounding it.
View attachment 355095


Many of these buildings and some historic districts were actually bulldozed by the Italians themselves against the wishes of locals.

Italians inherited two quarters, these quarters already existed prior to them, so they didn't build anything important, or expand the city, other than one road for banana export and like a church, lighthouse or a gate in the middle of city, next to historic mosques and towers that are centuries old to the point it overshadows it.

The city map under the Italians: Showing Shingani and Hamarweyne,
View attachment 355098

This is a description of Mogadishu and coastal towns under the Italians. It was not clean nor aesthetic. Somalis complained because the didn't allow us to the develop or improve it
View attachment 355096

What built the city was actually the two Somali governments that came after . The Kacaan government cleaned most of the area,
View attachment 355100

They expanded the city into many new districts and started to clean it up. They built new landmarks, monuments, villas , housing, hotels, mosques, theaters, stadiums, streets ,roads and they planted trees, gardens etc

City map under Kacaan government: The government even repaired old districts that the Italians bulldozed.
View attachment 355099

I don't think there is any worse than colonial propaganda, they destroy things and make life worse. But then take credit for bringing civilization. Dad walaan.

Siad Barre literally made Mogadishu into the greatest city. Before that there where 0 paved roads, low style infrastructure just stone+mud buildings. It had a port yes but still relatively poor. What I'm trying to say is that before the Italians Mogadishu wasn't great. It's greatness started post Italian Siad barre. And died after Siad barre. Today it's a slum city ran by a
tribes who never had a recorded civilization and who don't know how to city plan some good buildings here and there but it's terrible today.

 

[crem]

Siad Barre literally made Mogadishu into the greatest city. Before that there where 0 paved roads, low style infrastructure just stone+mud buildings. It had a port yes but still relatively poor. What I'm trying to say is that before the Italians Mogadishu wasn't great. It's greatness started post Italian Siad barre. And died after Siad barre. Today it's a slum city ran by a
tribes who never had a recorded civilization and who don't know how to city plan some good buildings here and there but it's terrible today.


View attachment 355105

You clearly don't know you're talking about

 

[AbdiBashirJR]

You clearly don't know you're talking about

Yeah he’s just looking from a qabil lense and through his hate for southern clans.

 

[AbdiBashirJR]

Mogadishu was a Swahili/Arab trade station. It wasn't built by Somalis. We were nomadic in the countryside.

Ibn battuta im 1300 said it was mostly black populated. Ibn said in 1250 called marka Hawiye capital. What evidence can you provide that’s better than eyewitness accounts?

 

[Shimbiris]

Mogadishu was a Swahili/Arab trade station. It wasn't built by Somalis. We where nomadic in the countryside.

Completely false. The town's own native oral and written traditions, historically agreed upon by both Cadcad (Gibil-Cad) and Somali (Gibil-Madow) tribes, plainly maintain the earliest inhabitants were Somalis (Gibil-Madows). In fact, this is the origin myth of every Banaadir town; that some native Somali tribe was the core original group. In Barawe it was the Tunni, in Xamar a Gibil-Madow subtribe that claims Ajuuraan origins and in Marko it seems to be the Hawiye.

When Battuta was there during the 14th century (1331) he was the first actual eye-witness visitor we know of writing about the place and he describes the ruler of Muqdisho as a "Barbara", a people who herd camels and fat-tailed sheep, are black-skinned, Shafici Muslims and live from Saylac down to Muqdisho. Plainly Somalis and this picture persists into Portugues accounts where "white" skinned inhabitants were a minority. Even Ibn Khaldun before Battuta describes the civilization of Muqdisho as "nomadic" in character like how Battuta describes the sheer number of camels being slaughtered when he visited.

Furthermore, as @Idilinaa can present the archaeology also points to Afgooye being older than Muqdisho which corroborates to some extent the origin myths the tribes of these towns maintain that it was natives who lived along the coast who received outsiders and formed these cosmopolitan ports.

Also, from what I've heard from some Cadcads I trust, their mtDNA seems overwhelmingly Somali which means it was mostly foreign men who were coming to the Banaadir to settle and taking Somali wives. You don't found towns and communities as just men. If this mtDNA stuff is true it's also genetically plain that they were guests of Somali tribes who intermarried with them and not real settlers who brought their wives and children.

Cease being a self-hater and stop spreading misinformation. It's 2025. Can't go around believing such bullshit no more.

 

[Idilinaa]

Siad Barre literally made Mogadishu into the greatest city. Before that there where 0 paved roads, low style infrastructure just stone+mud buildings. It had a port yes but still relatively poor. What I'm trying to say is that before the Italians Mogadishu wasn't great. It's greatness started post Italian Siad barre. And died after Siad barre. Today it's a slum city ran by a
tribes who never had a recorded civilization and who don't know how to city plan some good buildings here and there but it's terrible today.


View attachment 355105

Pre-Italian and Pre-Kacaan Mogadishu had whitewashed stonebuilding architecture with flat roofs built out of with eleborate carved wooden doors & window frames and stone carvings designs and spiked edges at the top (same in other commercial towns) , that same architectural style was kept with a modern twist and you can see it in the picture you just showed. It's was what gave Mogadishu the nickname of ''white pearl of the indian ocean''

Paved roads was not common in much of the world before our modern era. Most of the world's city lacked urban planning, all of the cities in America and Europe were overcrowded , polluted ugly towns and cities until they made major reforms. Spoke about it in a seperate thread:

Many of the current western countries you see today, during early/mid 1900s tore down entire towns filled with ugly crowded industrial buildings that made things polluted, created slums and bad atmosphere and made way for better planned architecture and landscaping and building of new urban centers. In what is called ''urban planning reforms'' in Europe/Australia and ''City Beautiful movement'' in North America

Around 1900, urban planning models were created to mitigate the negative consequences of the industrial revolution by providing citizens

Some developed countries like the UK (particularly in London and Manchester) and Korea(Seoul) still suffer from the legacy of ugly housing to this day.

Todays Mogadishu is not a slum, it has zero slums. It's a buzzling commercial hub and this is without centralized urban planning.

You can see this echoed with suprised by certain African commenters when they seek walkthrough videos of the city:

 

[Shimbiris]

Pre-Italian and Pre-Kacaan Mogadishu had whitewashed stonebuilding architecture with flat roofs built out of with eleborate carved wooden doors & window frames and stone carvings designs and spiked edges at the top (same in other commercial towns) , that same architectural style was kept with a modern twist and you can see it in the picture you just showed. It's was what gave Mogadishu the nickname of ''white pearl of the indian ocean''

Paved roads was not common in much of the world before our modern era. Most of the world's city lacked urban planning, all of the cities in America and Europe were overcrowded , polluted ugly towns and cities until they made major reforms. Spoke about it in a seperate thread:





Todays Mogadishu is not a slum, it has zero slums. It's a buzzling commercial hub and this is without centralized urban planning.
View attachment 355110

You can see this echoed with suprised by certain African commenters when they seek walkthrough videos of the city:

Idk how this meme that Somalis were all nomadic is still remotely alive. Yes, it is the core of our culture like it is in Arabian culture but it's not like our culture doesn't, exactly like that of the Arabs of the Jazeera, have a plain as day "Reer Miyi/Baadiyo" and "Reer Magaal" dichotomy exactly like the Arab "Badu" and "Hadhar" divide. Go through any writer like Richard Burton's texts from the early modern era and it's plain there are "Bedouin" Somalis and "Settled" Somalis of the towns and differences in customs and behavior between the two despite there being fluid movement and exchange of ancestry and people between them like in Arabia.

Hell, our culture isn't even fully pastoral nomadic like that of the Mongols. A simple reconstruction of Proto-Soomaali and even Proto-East-Cushitic makes it plain our ancestors were agro-pastoral and familiar with both farming and pastoralism which is why, throughout history, you do have settled farmer subtribes among pretty much every tribe, most well-known among the Raxanweyn.

 

[Idilinaa]

Completely false. The town's own native oral and written traditions, historically agreed upon by both Cadcad (Gibil-Cad) and Somali (Gibil-Madow) tribes, plainly maintain the earliest inhabitants were Somalis (Gibil-Madows). In fact, this is the origin myth of every Banaadir town; that some native Somali tribe was the core original group. In Barawe it was the Tunni, in Xamar a Gibil-Madow subtribe that claims Ajuuraan origins and in Marko it seems to be the Hawiye.

This is Sheikh Ali the richest merchant in Mogadishu during the mid-late 1800s hailed from the influential Bandhawow Reer Xamar clan he owned multiple properties:

In a seperate thread i showed Barawa Qadi Town records a lot of the plots of land and multi-storied buildings were owned by individuals that hailed from the Tunni clan.

Even Somali women owned a many of the stone houses

The Tunni not only formed a bulk of the inhabitants they were also sedentary agro-pastoral farmers living in villages on the country side, that was supplying the town food to sustain it and other products. Which just shows that the towns were just commercial outlet for interior Somali production and the inhabitants just acted as middle men.

It was the same for Reer Xamar most of them just hailed from core pastoral clan lineages and they were often connected with rural producers and trade routes driven by interior caravan transporters.

 

[Idilinaa]

Idk how this meme that Somalis were all nomadic is still remotely alive. Yes, it is the core of our culture like it is in Arabian culture but it's not like our culture doesn't, exactly like that of the Arabs of the Jazeera, have a plain as day "Reer Miyi/Baadiyo" and "Reer Magaal" dichotomy exactly like the Arab "Badu" and "Hadhar" divide. Go through any writer like Richard Burton's texts from the early modern era and it's plain there are "Bedouin" Somalis and "Settled" Somalis of the towns and differences in customs and behavior between the two despite there being fluid movement and exchange of ancestry and people between them like in Arabia.

Hell, our culture isn't even fully pastoral nomadic like that of the Mongols. A simple reconstruction of Proto-Soomaali and even Proto-East-Cushitic makes it plain our ancestors were agro-pastoral and familiar with both farming and pastoralism which is why, throughout history, you do have settled farmer subtribes among pretty much every tribe, most well-known among the Raxanweyn.

It comes from false lazy colonial discursive framing. The term "nomadic" implies a lack of fixed settlements, random movement, and absence of territorial or economic structure, which does not accurately describe Somali society. Instead, Somalis had organized, seasonal mobility within defined territories and a diverse economic system beyond herding.

Somalis were never nomads in the strict sense of the word. They were more accurately mobile-pastoralists, agro-pastoralists, town dwellers, sailors and small groups of them were fishermen on the coast

Mobile pastoralists could seasonally pick up other modes of life during different seasons and engaged in caravan trade or seasonal labour work. Would even participate in seafaring.

Somali mobile pastoralists were not "nomadic" in the classic sense, as they moved seasonally within defined territories and could shift occupations when necessary. Maintained permanent clan settlements and did not wander aimlessly. Would practice transhumance and shift occupations (e.g., engaging in trade, fishing, or farming when necessary). You had the same tribes that simultaneously lived in settled areas, did seasonal transhumance, traded, did seafaring, farmed and interacted with every part of this complex economic chain and they were not only Somalis but often the same tribes.

We have a culture of mobility & trade not nomadism. This seperation into Mobile Pastoralists, Agro-Pastoralists (Sedentary), Fishing & Coastal Trading Communities and Urban & Merchant Classes meant that Somalia was not a purely pastoralist society but a complex, adaptable economy with sedentary and mobile populations coexisting.

 

[Shimbiris]

It comes from false lazy colonial discursive framing. The term "nomadic" implies a lack of fixed settlements, random movement, and absence of territorial or economic structure, which does not accurately describe Somali society. Instead, Somalis had organized, seasonal mobility within defined territories and a diverse economic system beyond herding.

Somalis were never nomads in the strict sense of the word. They were more accurately mobile-pastoralists, agro-pastoralists, town dwellers, sailors and small groups of them were fishermen on the coast

Mobile pastoralists could seasonally pick up other modes of life during different seasons and engaged in caravan trade or seasonal labour work. Would even participate in seafaring.

Somali mobile pastoralists were not "nomadic" in the classic sense, as they moved seasonally within defined territories and could shift occupations when necessary. Maintained permanent clan settlements and did not wander aimlessly. Would practice transhumance and shift occupations (e.g., engaging in trade, fishing, or farming when necessary). You had the same tribes that simultaneously lived in settled areas, did seasonal transhumance, traded, did seafaring, farmed and interacted with every part of this complex economic chain and they were not only Somalis but often the same tribes.

We have a culture of mobility & trade not nomadism. This seperation into Mobile Pastoralists, Agro-Pastoralists (Sedentary), Fishing & Coastal Trading Communities and Urban & Merchant Classes meant that Somalia was not a purely pastoralist society but a complex, adaptable economy with sedentary and mobile populations coexisting.

I really see what you mean with that quote from Speke during the 19th century:

"The Nakhoda (captain), as is often the case in these primitive countries, kept no regular sailors, but trusted to finding men desirous of going to their country, who would work his vessel for him—all Somali being by nature sailors"

I was baffled when I first read it and the account earlier of how they just randomly pick up some Isaaq tribesmen to sail their vessel. He seems to imply that you could approach any random pastoralist along the coast and he could immediately shift into being a sailor. Sounded absurd until I did some reading into the first ever Somali book published using the Latin script that tells the story of a fictional Daraawiish from the 19th century:

The whole story is literally about a boy whose life story captures this mobility you speak of. At various points in his life he's everything from a pastoral nomad to a sailor to a trader to a warrior and he does not sound irregular or special in this and the author bases his writings on what he knew about people's lives during the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th century... it's wild how "mobile" they were in terms of life-style.

 

[Idilinaa]

I really see what you mean with that quote from Speke during the 19th century:



I was baffled when I first read it and the account earlier of how they just randomly pick up some Isaaq tribesmen to sail their vessel. He seems to be imply that you could approach any random pastoralist along the coast and he could immediately shift into being a sailor. Sounded absurd until I did some reading into the first ever Somali book published using the Latin script that tells the story of a fictional Daraawiish from the 19th century:

The whole story is literally about a boy whose life story captures this mobility you speak of. At various points in his life he's everything from a pastoral nomad to a sailor to a trader to a warrior and he does not sound irregular or special in this and the author bases his writings on what he knew about people's lives during the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th century... it's wild how "mobile" they were in terms of life-style.

Whats funny is that you have foreign observers say that they are confused by this complexity

''We cannot understand what is meant by their 'pastoral habits'', since they are clearly a maritime people, and have been termed Abyssinian mariners.''

He goes on to explain how Somali's have wide diaspora presence on the account of their seafaring that stretch all the way down to Mozambique.

But the ''They detest the Arabs'' at Mocha part is most likely mis-intepretation on the account that people had communal boundaries.