Did ajuran empire/state exist?

[Midas]

One thing i also noticed they try refer to African ethnic groups or tribes as kingdoms, when there is no evidence of it. They were just small tribal federation, which were extremely savage.

Most of the “west African imperial system” doesn’t have evidence of it being a state of any form but more chiefdoms as there no evidence of a clear and structured hierarchy system, a government that controlled the land and a writing system, there’s no evidence of cities in most these supposed civilizations.

So the Sokoto caliphate and touklour probably represented a significant shift.



It's interesting how Fulanis trace their origins in North Africa.

What is also weird to me is that they are described as pastoralists but they didn't adopt the camel, but only use cattle. Which makes me think they didn't engage in long distance trading or the camel caravan. It might mean that were more localized and not cross regional.

It seems like west africa had decentralized urban centers. Since a lot of the these towns did become pretty big. But it seems that it was incredibly diffuclt to actually built a centralized kingdom. I can't rember where I read this but somebody brought up how even the Moroccans who invaded the songhair failed to establish any centralized kingdoms and maintain control. Somethings about the geography just makes difficult .

To your point about mali. Yeah I've grown very skeptical since it seems extermly weird that they apparently had massive gold mines . But they never minted a single currency. It sounds very strange. Even the swahili towns which are much smaller when they hit a certain level of development and welath began miniting coins. Also thr lack of an identitfiable capital. As well as the fact that the mandinka lanaguge was not written down which is normally what empire do. Just like the persians and the arabs created a written administrative langauge for the empire.

 

[Midas]

your right that they didn't do long distance trade that was probably done by the berbers/turages. Infact when you think about it the fact they rely on cattle means they couldn't have lived in arid environment. They probably inhabited some sort of savannahs with lots of water and grass. Or else they wouldn't have been able to support cattle.

 

[Step a side]

The Ajuran state certainly existed, the real question is how far back did they begin from and when did they end. You cannot envision any kingdom in Somalia that was described with this type of power in that period of time except them. But you'll find other small chiefdoms and lineages gassed up beyond belief to massage egos. Historians themselves will confirm no centralised level of large numbers existed between the advent of the Ajuran and Siad Barre era.

Also, there is an old Hawiye saying "Gob waa Gareen ama Gaabane ayay gashaa". This is in reference to the overthrow of Ajuran by Hiraab, as Gaabane is the Owbakar Gaabane of the current Mudulood Imam. The oral stories state the wars against Ajuran, whilst bloody, there was a mutual tradition of succession as the Ajuran Imam threw his crown and it landed on a man from the Gaabane clan.

It says Ajan ou Haouya which means Ajan OR Hawiye. So Ajan is clearly a latin form of Hawiye, used by Europeans to describe the Haawiya of medieval Arabs. The Arabs like Hamawi and Dimashqi of the 14th century believed the Hawiye tribe of Berbers had the name Haawiya due to the extreme heat of their coast which is ignorance on their part. You'll notice before this era, the term Ajan barely existed, the coast was called Berberia, Punt, Cush, troglodytes/sabeans etc which suggests further the use of Ajan correlates strongly with Hawiyes reported presence in the last millenia. The real Somali meaning of Hawiye might be lost in time but the point of the matter is Hawiye have played a foremost role in understanding mediavel Somali history. Trying to bypass them to understand precolonial Somali history is why you have theorists on Sspot overanalysing very obvious tropes as if it were dark matter. Most who try to discredit the history of the Ajuran are northern or western based Somalis, who themselves have little to account for outside of their camel tussling culture of the last 2 mere centuries.

 

[Idilinaa]

It seems like west africa had decentralized urban centers. Since a lot of the these towns did become pretty big. But it seems that it was incredibly diffuclt to actually built a centralized kingdom. I can't rember where I read this but somebody brought up how even the Moroccans who invaded the songhair failed to establish any centralized kingdoms and maintain control. Somethings about the geography just makes difficult .

To your point about mali. Yeah I've grown very skeptical since it seems extermly weird that they apparently had massive gold mines . But they never minted a single currency. It sounds very strange. Even the swahili towns which are much smaller when they hit a certain level of development and welath began miniting coins. Also thr lack of an identitfiable capital. As well as the fact that the mandinka lanaguge was not written down which is normally what empire do. Just like the persians and the arabs created a written administrative langauge for the empire.

Coinage shows 2 things central authority which establishes and regulates currency and trade networks, markets, and a need for standardized value in transactions, facilitating trade both locally and long-distance.

The fact that they never issued it, is pretty telling, they either didn't have a central authority or a significant long distance market economy.

The Somali medieval sultanates used both locally minted ones and international coins. and wide internal trade market where the coins were used in wide circulation.

Examples of Mogadishu silver coins. We currently have found names of 21 Sultans, and have been found in different parts of Somalia, the Horn, the Gulf, Turkey, and Iraq.

 

[Midas]

View attachment 346871

The Ajuran state certainly existed, the real question is how far back did they begin from and when did they end. You cannot envision any kingdom in Somalia that was described with this type of power in that period of time except them. But you'll find other small chiefdoms and lineages gassed up beyond belief to massage egos. Historians themselves will confirm no centralised level of large numbers existed between the advent of the Ajuran and Siad Barre era.

Also, there is an old Hawiye saying "Gob waa Gareen ama Gaabane ayay gashaa". This is in reference to the overthrow of Ajuran by Hiraab, as Gaabane is the Owbakar Gaabane of the current Mudulood Imam. The oral stories state the wars against Ajuran, whilst bloody, there was a mutual tradition of succession as the Ajuran Imam threw his crown and it landed on a man from the Gaabane clan.

View attachment 346872View attachment 346873View attachment 346874View attachment 346875



View attachment 346876
It says Ajan ou Haouya which means Ajan OR Hawiye. So Ajan is clearly a latin form of Hawiye, used by Europeans to describe the Haawiya of medieval Arabs. The Arabs like Hamawi and Dimashqi of the 14th century believed the Hawiye tribe of Berbers had the name Haawiya due to the extreme heat of their coast which is ignorance on their part. You'll notice before this era, the term Ajan barely existed, the coast was called Berberia, Punt, Cush, troglodytes/sabeans etc which suggests further the use of Ajan correlates strongly with Hawiyes reported presence in the last millenia. The real Somali meaning of Hawiye might be lost in time but the point of the matter is Hawiye have played a foremost role in understanding mediavel Somali history. Trying to bypass them to understand precolonial Somali history is why you have theorists on Sspot overanalysing very obvious tropes as if it were dark matter. Most who try to discredit the history of the Ajuran are northern or western based Somalis, who themselves have little to account for outside of their camel tussling culture of the last 2 mere centuries.

I frankly don't give a damm about darod did this hawiye did that isaaq owned this. But the fact that us saying we should be careful of projecting our modern understanding of clans to a state that existed for several hundred years ago( which is a common historical practice) made you go ballistic is becuase you took it as a personal attack since if the sultnate is not hawiye it means nothing in your eyes. Which is such an cawaan mentality. It's one thing if some geeljire in the baddiyo or some poor person who doesn't knwo much about the world is obsessed with clans. But somebody who likely has lived in the diaspora and understands English obsessing over qabil to this level? I will always look down on those people as subhuman.


Also the fact that you decided to denigrate all the other premodern kingdoms and call other people camel rustlers when a bunch of your own clan are also pastoralists just shows how qabil fueled you really are becuae it's all about hawiye for you and nobody can be allowed to be better than hawiye.
( this is not an attack on hauwye there are plenty of people who are darod and isaaq who think this way about their own clans)

 

[Step a side]

I frankly don't give a damm about darod did this hawiye did that isaaq owned this. But the fact that us saying we should be careful of projecting our modern understanding of clans to a state that existed for several hundred years ago( which is a common historical practice) made you go ballistic is becuase you took it as a personal attack since if the sultnate is not hawiye it means nothing in your eyes. Which is such an cawaan mentality. It's one thing if some geeljire in the baddiyo or some poor person who doesn't knwo much about the world is obsessed with clans. But somebody who likely has lived in the diaspora and understands English obsessing over qabil to this level? I will always look down on those people as subhuman.


Also the fact that you decided to denigrate all the other premodern kingdoms and call other people camel rustlers when a bunch of your own clan are also pastoralists just shows how qabil fueled you really are becuae it's all about hawiye for you and nobody can be allowed to be better than hawiye.
( this is not an attack on hauwye there are plenty of people who are darod and isaaq who think this way about their own clans)

Don’t get upset saxib because Ajuuraan is Hawiye Not a single Somali sultanate, kingdom or state comes close to Ajuuraan yet somehow we know more about those small clan enclave chiefdoms and their origins but somehow it becomes a problem when people state Ajuuraan are Hawiye? I personally couldn’t care less about qabiil. My job is to proof that Ajuuraan state existed and they were Hawiye which is part of the Somali race.

 

[Idilinaa]

Coinage shows 2 things central authority which establishes and regulates currency and trade networks, markets, and a need for standardized value in transactions, facilitating trade both locally and long-distance.

The fact that they never issued it, is pretty telling, they either didn't have a central authority or a significant long distance market economy.

The Somali medieval sultanates used both locally minted ones and international coins. and wide internal trade market where the coins were used in wide circulation.

Examples of Mogadishu silver coins. We currently have found names of 21 Sultans, and have been found in different parts of Somalia, the Horn, the Gulf, Turkey, and Iraq.

your right that they didn't do long distance trade that was probably done by the berbers/turages. Infact when you think about it the fact they rely on cattle means they couldn't have lived in arid environment. They probably inhabited some sort of savannahs with lots of water and grass. Or else they wouldn't have been able to support cattle.

You see names of two other prominent medieval cities mentioned. Genesare/janasir which was part of the province of Awdal along with Zayla and Gendebelo/Jandebalo

When it comes to Gendebelo as the great merchant city that it was , it's specifically mentioned that merchandise traveled via camel caravans:

This from Venetian scholar Alessandro Zorzi, in 1523 who interviewed an Ethiopian Monk on the trade routes from east to west:

New archeological research done on the Ifat sultanate

https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/19577?lang=en

www.somalispot.com

So the lack of use of the camel definitely must have hindered them. Because from the Somali point of view the camel was our economic driver.

 

[Midas]

Don’t get upset saxib because Ajuuraan is Hawiye Not a single Somali sultanate, kingdom or state comes close to Ajuuraan yet somehow we know more about those small clan enclave chiefdoms and their origins but somehow it becomes a problem when people state Ajuuraan are Hawiye? I personally couldn’t care less about qabiil. My job is to proof that Ajuuraan state existed and they were Hawiye which is part of the Somali race.

I couldn't give damn which qabil ruled which area frankly I suspect there was change everywhere It's also funny becuase me and the others never once talked about the qabil or said that this qabil ruled this area ( in facg we said a lot of darod was likley fictional and was it abaorbing orher clans) You somehow got extermely defensive when we talked about being careful of projecting modern clan identities back.


It's also extermely obvious you are obsessed with qabil since your trashing all the other non ajuran states becuase you don't think they were your clan. (On top of the fact nobody talked about them not being somali)

 

[Galool]

@Step a side stop denigrating every historical thread with tribalist rants. It is getting ridiculous.

If you have something to add to the content of the historical thread great but constantly ruining every thread repeating the same thing over and over. One time was enough, you have shared it. You literally get into fights over the same thing constantly, xishood please. Take it to the FKD section.

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[Midas]

You see names of two other prominent medieval cities mentioned. Genesare/janasir which was part of the province of Awdal along with Zayla and Gendebelo/Jandebalo

When it comes to Gendebelo as the great merchant city that it was , it's specifically mentioned that merchandise traveled via camel caravans:

This from Venetian scholar Alessandro Zorzi, in 1523 who interviewed an Ethiopian Monk on the trade routes from east to west:

New archeological research done on the Ifat sultanate

https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/19577?lang=en

www.somalispot.com

So the lack of use of the camel definitely must have hindered them. Because from the Somali point of view the camel was our economic driver.

The camel seems to be the only way to carry out large scale tradee over land and it's amazing that you can basically determine who did long distance trade by who keeps camels. In west africa it shows that they didn't have ny control over the long distance trade. It was likely all in the hands of Berbers/target. Funnily enough the person who wrote the tarikh sudan was a beber himself living in timbukut.

 

[Midas]

@Step a side stop denigrating every historical thread with tribalist rants. It is getting ridiculous.

If you have something to add to the content of the historical thread great but constantly ruining every thread repeating the same thing over and over. One time was enough, you have shared it. You literally get into fights over the same thing constantly, xishood please. Take it to the FKD section.

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Yeah i honestly don't care about qabil. This is a probelm with Somalis from everywhere . You have people in america saying this polticam is from my qabil which is do cringe.

( i edited out calling his qabil personally on my last post since I feel like it might come across as tribalistic. Unfortunately the deadline to edit my other post passes)

 

[Step a side]

@Step a side stop denigrating every historical thread with tribalist rants. It is getting ridiculous.

If you have something to add to the content of the historical thread great but constantly ruining every thread repeating the same thing over and over. One time was enough, you have shared it. You literally get into fights over the same thing constantly, xishood please. Take it to the FKD section.

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You need to read the room. Read the 1st page on this thread and you will see the vast majority have no objections with the state actually existing. Their problem is the state being run by Hawiye. A lot of them try to hide anything that’s Hawiye. They will say ‘it was a samaale tribe’ or ‘we have no idea about the origin of its rulers’. I am just educating the masses that its rulers were indeed Hawiye. Anyways I’m done on this thread.

 

[Idilinaa]

I frankly don't give a damm about darod did this hawiye did that isaaq owned this. But the fact that us saying we should be careful of projecting our modern understanding of clans to a state that existed for several hundred years ago( which is a common historical practice) made you go ballistic is becuase you took it as a personal attack since if the sultnate is not hawiye it means nothing in your eyes. Which is such an cawaan mentality. It's one thing if some geeljire in the baddiyo or some poor person who doesn't knwo much about the world is obsessed with clans. But somebody who likely has lived in the diaspora and understands English obsessing over qabil to this level? I will always look down on those people as subhuman.


Also the fact that you decided to denigrate all the other premodern kingdoms and call other people camel rustlers when a bunch of your own clan are also pastoralists just shows how qabil fueled you really are becuae it's all about hawiye for you and nobody can be allowed to be better than hawiye.
( this is not an attack on hauwye there are plenty of people who are darod and isaaq who think this way about their own clans)

He just spams hawiye and karanle in each thread. Showed him that Ajan was not a name for a state or a refrence to Ajuuran but he kept spamming screens.

So i just leave him to his devices most of the time, sometimes he drops information that is interesting.

But if you dial it back to the actual history, most of Somalis in the past identified with the region and city they were from rather than their qabil , when they interracted with the outside world or traveled internally. The regional leaders in the 1800s introduced themselves as Al-Sumal and or Emir of Sumal. It similar to the Somalischolars that left throughout refered to themselves as Al-Barawi, Al-Maqdishi, Al-Zayla'i, Al-Jabarti etc

Even the merchant city Gendabelo i mentioned just now. There was someone who carried the nisba Jandabli. Ḥāmid bin Ibrahīm al-Jandabalī who was the secretary (Kabir) of , the Emir/Sultan Imām Muḥammad Bin. Ibrāhīm Jāsa

There was no Al-Ajuuran, Al-Hawiye, Al-Darood , Al-Marahan, Al-Hatimi, Al-Ashraaf or Al-Ishaaqi or Al-Tunni.

So the whole clan thing makes no difference really. This obssession is a modern concotion, to short change and fragment our understanding of the regional histories that are intervined among Somalis and shared. Because Somalis of the past saw themselves belonging to a wider shared community not just with their own narrow clan family and they were in constant contact and alliance with eachother.

Don’t get upset saxib because Ajuuraan is Hawiye Not a single Somali sultanate, kingdom or state comes close to Ajuuraan yet somehow we know more about those small clan enclave chiefdoms and their origins but somehow it becomes a problem when people state Ajuuraan are Hawiye? I personally couldn’t care less about qabiil. My job is to proof that Ajuuraan state existed and they were Hawiye which is part of the Somali race.

Bar'Sa'adin/Awdal was more powerful and diverse than the Mogadishu based medieval sultanate because it covered a wider geography, population and market. The Majerteen/Hobyo sultanates of the 1800s were not small clan enclaves or cheifdoms, they controlled a large territory seperated into several coastal villages and towns and engaged in the same long distance and maritime trade, with the use Abaan system.

The riverrine regions in the south operated similar to the Harar uplands in the west near upper shabelle and its tributaries. Same minting of coins, textile weaving industry, and agro-pastoral farming village set up etc

There is nothing uniquelly different about it really, it followed the same Somali pattern you find elsewhere in the Somali region. And as other regions grew wealthy and large so did it as well.