Extracts from Ibn Battuta - On Somalia

[Banadiri Warrior]

Yeah, some reer Xamar wrote in a manuscript that Muqdisho comes from Maqadshah and that Xamar comes from the word Arabic-red, so know we must take it as fact and explore no other alternatives. So when was the Persian King ruling Muqdisho and when was the first recorded mention of muqdisho being named after the shah? When was the first record connection of the word Xamar being derived from Arabic?

The topic is xamar, if you want to learn about the history of xamar you get it from Reer Xamar's themselves, just like how any visitors of the past did when visiting xamar such as during the last 2 centuries, they weren't going to baadiya to seek out history of xamar.

The name Maq'ad Shaah came about during time of Xulwani rule, as mentioned by Shariif Caydaruus when quoting from a manuscript.

 

[Step a side]

What's known and claimed by reer xamars is that Xamar is from Ximyar and that Muqdisho is from Maq'ad Shaah, you won't see any reer xamar saying it's from the maxatiri word muuq disho. People of Xamar know xamar better than any other people, vast majority of history of xamar is known through the manuscripts held by Reer Xamars

Where are these manuscripts. It’s 2024 and yet no one has seen these manuscripts yet.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Also why haven't Arabs and Iranians layed claim to it in their records? These two people's are known for recording it all, we have concrete proof for Arabs taking parts of southern Italy but not a city right below Arabia? Even worse for reer hindi, detailed Arabic sources about Mogadishu and Somalia claim that it is a land of Ajami (non arabs) ruled by a King who spoke Arabic as a second language with his first being the local tounge. Just give up lil bro @Banadiri Warrior

Arabs and Persians from elsewhere don't need to attest to it for it to be true, what's important is banaadiri records that's all that's relevant. No mention of the sultans tongue being Af Maxaatiri either clearly says Maqdishi

 

[El Nino]

Primary sources from natives precede anything else and no first hand account mentions etymology of any names

When did south asians become native to Africa kkkkk

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Where are these manuscripts. It’s 2024 and yet no one has seen these manuscripts yet.

In Xamar or in possession of Reer xamar families abroad, there are translations of few manuscripts available like the ones cerulli translated

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

When did south asians become native to Africa kkkkk

https://x.com/Kooshinnnn/status/1811100414214861120?t=5Z55-o4MOnkDM7Pp0y1txQ&s=19

Idk you tell me

 

[IKHALIIL]

When did south asians become native to Africa kkkkk

 

[Khaem]

Primary sources from natives precede anything else and no first hand account mentions etymology of any names

What primary sources? Some reer hindi writing down oral "tradition" after centuries of transmission is nothing compared to a first hand written account of someone who was actually traveling and documenting each detail.

Arabs and Persians from elsewhere don't need to attest to it for it to be true, what's important is banaadiri records that's all that's relevant. No mention of the sultans tongue being Af Maxaatiri either clearly says Maqdishi

Yes it is the Arabs and Persians write down everything, no one says banadiri sources are the only thing to be relevant. You cant just take one weak source and say everything else is irrelevant just to push your agenda.

Arabs documented even tiny raids in Iceland which took a few dozen slaves, but they wouldn't document a whole Arabic migration and building of metropolises right across the Gulf? Be real with yourself. Not a single Arab or Persian claims Somali cities. The contrary actually. Whenever Arabs claim tribes in Somalia it's just large clans like Al Jarbati Darood which they probably used wikipedia for. Never have they mentioned Banadiri. You indians need to get a grip of reality. Xamar wa Somali, always will be.


Oral history with a weak link of transmission is irrelevant compared to a first hand written account. Keep seething.

 

[Riftvalley]

The topic is xamar, if you want to learn about the history of xamar you get it from Reer Xamar's themselves, just like how any visitors of the past did when visiting xamar such as during the last 2 centuries, they weren't going to baadiya to seek out history of xamar.

The name Maq'ad Shaah came about during time of Xulwani rule, as mentioned by Shariif Caydaruus when quoting from a manuscript.

A man allegedly quoting manuscripts of his clan from oral histories, which he does not reference or state the time when the manuscript was written, is merely a theory. We are not obliged to take it as fact even if you do.

 

[Riftvalley]

Arabs and Persians from elsewhere don't need to attest to it for it to be true, what's important is banaadiri records that's all that's relevant. No mention of the sultans tongue being Af Maxaatiri either clearly says Maqdishi

What language is Maqdishi?

 

[Khaem]

What language is Maqdishi?

Watch this nigga say swahili

 

[Mcqueeny]

What primary sources? Some reer hindi writing down oral "tradition" after centuries of transmission is nothing compared to a first hand written account of someone who was actually traveling and documenting each detail.

Yes it is the Arabs and Persians write down everything, no one says banadiri sources are the only thing to be relevant. You cant just take one weak source and say everything else is irrelevant just to push your agenda.

Arabs documented even tiny raids in Iceland which took a few dozen slaves, but they wouldn't document a whole Arabic migration and building of metropolises right across the Gulf? Be real with yourself. Not a single Arab or Persian claims Somali cities. The contrary actually. Whenever Arabs claim tribes in Somalia it's just large clans like Al Jarbati Darood which they probably used wikipedia for. Never have they mentioned Banadiri. You indians need to get a grip of reality. Xamar wa Somali, always will be.


Oral history with a weak link of transmission is irrelevant compared to a first hand written account. Keep seething.

She is salty because Ibn Battuta and the other medieval explorers didn't mention their irrelevant ilk.

 

[Idilinaa]

What's known and claimed by reer xamars is that Xamar is from Ximyar and that Muqdisho is from Maq'ad Shaah, you won't see any reer xamar saying it's from the maxatiri word muuq disho. People of Xamar know xamar better than any other people, vast majority of history of xamar is known through the manuscripts held by Reer Xamars

Collectively they don't claim that at all. And Reer Xamaris are a clan confederation who majority are Somali tribes from the interior and some from other places who have a tradition that they settled there during the towns founding. With Murshow being singled out as the earliest one of them all.

And you can tell it's mostly clans who had control over interior trade routes with the most signficant ones being Khalafow and Murusade/Mursola , the latter who controlled trade route up Shabelle river and who has entire gate named after themselves. Xamar was founded as as outlet for interior production has 4 gates going to different routes in the interior.

Moorshe , Bandawoow, Dhabarweyne are all confederacies founded by core lineages.

The name of the confederacy is seperate from the individual clan family names that make them up and the core founding group that headed them.

The core founding group of Moorshe confederacy is an Ajuraan clan.

The Dhabarweyne confederacy founders were from Hawadle and Murusade clans

And the sole founder of the Bandawow confederacy was a Hawiye clan Amin Khalafow

Also iskahaasto is actually a group of clans that formed a cooperative. It is literally taken directly from Raxanweyn agro-pastoral culture of stock association/cooperatives..

And those manuscripts that you are talking about don't date before the late 19th century and older external Arabic sources mention none of those things at all and outright contradict it.

It also would be impossible for external groups to found settlements in some area near san dunes with no resources.
As a Himyar or Persian i am going to leave my homeland to go to found a settlement in a barren dry uncultivated coastal area near a collection of sands and rocks? good luck arguing that.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

What primary sources? Some reer hindi writing down oral "tradition" after centuries of transmission is nothing compared to a first hand written account of someone who was actually traveling and documenting each detail.

It's evident that you're envious, don't blame us because you've got nothing better than Chinese whispers to derige your history from.

Yes it is the Arabs and Persians write down everything, no one says banadiri sources are the only thing to be relevant. You cant just take one weak source and say everything else is irrelevant just to push your agenda.

Arabs documented even tiny raids in Iceland which took a few dozen slaves, but they wouldn't document a whole Arabic migration and building of metropolises right across the Gulf? Be real with yourself. Not a single Arab or Persian claims Somali cities. The contrary actually. Whenever Arabs claim tribes in Somalia it's just large clans like Al Jarbati Darood which they probably used wikipedia for. Never have they mentioned Banadiri. You indians need to get a grip of reality. Xamar wa Somali, always will be.


Oral history with a weak link of transmission is irrelevant compared to a first hand written account. Keep seething.

Well Arab and Persian banadiri's wrote their own history and that's sufficient. No such thing as Samaale cities anyways why would there be cities in the midst of baadiya.

It's obvious that darood aren't Arab so Arabs falsely claiming them doesn't prove anything. Each banaadiri Arab tribe knows itself and many still carry their larger tribe name such as Ashraaf Ba Alawi, Ashraaf Mahdali, Ba Fadhal, 'Amoudi, Ba Hamish, Ba Ghashwa, Hatimi, Makhzuumi, Mehri etc the list goes on.

Xamar existed before Samaale, suffice yourself with sticking to claiming geeljire civilizations, ik deep down you wish your ancestors had some sort of relevant urban civilization.

You don't decide what sort of evidence is irrelevant, that's for banaadiri's to decide when discussing their history

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

What language is Maqdishi?

Certainly not Af Maxaatiri or Af Maay or Swahili

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

A man allegedly quoting manuscripts of his clan from oral histories, which he does not reference or state the time when the manuscript was written, is merely a theory. We are not obliged to take it as fact even if you do.

Here's an excerpt from one of the few manuscripts available online.

This was written in the margin of a manuscript on a slave being freed during the time of Sultan Mudhaffar bin Al Malik An- Nasir , as you can see the highlighted part mentions that Mu'allim Mukarram bin Mu'allim 'Umar copied the story from the book of his grandfather Faqih 'Asharow bin Faqih 'Ilmi and he had copied from the book of his early grandparents.

This occurred in the year 981 Hijri . Clear mention of the period the event is from. Also mentions the witnesses of this event which consisted of 'Ulama, Mashaayikh, Relatives, Neighbours and leaders.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Collectively they don't claim that at all. And Reer Xamaris are a clan confederation who majority are Somali tribes from the interior and some from other places who have a tradition that they settled there during the towns founding. With Murshow being singled out as the earliest one of them all.

Nope Reer xamars aren't a clan confederation, there are reer xamar clan confederacies/alliances such as Reer Maanyo, Moorsho, Iskaashato, Dhabarweyne, Bandhawow, Indhoweyne, Qalmashuwe, Saddex Geedi.

Gibil Madows that hail from clans in interior are not majority amongst all Reer xamar gibil madows let alone all Reer xamars.

Moorsho firstly isn't a clan or lineage, they're a multi ethnic confederacy and it's the name of an area .

Currently Moorsho consists of:
1-Reer Maxamud Eebow
2-ReerBaatay Eebow
3-Reer Ibrahim Eebow
4-Reer Khalafow
5-Reer Mahadow Amiin
6- Reer Aweys Nuurow
7-Ba Xamish
8- Xaatimi

The Ajuran within moorsho such as the 4 Reer Eebow and Mahadow Amiin claim to be from Abdalla Dayle . Xamar clearly existed centuries before that , the earliest known existing tribes are Reer Faqi, Shaanshi and Guudmana. The fact that they claim origin from subclans of larger clans in interior hints to how recent they arrived

And you can tell it's mostly clans who had control over interior trade routes with the most signficant ones being Khalafow and Murusade/Mursola , the latter who controlled trade route up Shabelle river and who has entire gate named after themselves. Xamar was founded as as outlet for interior production has 4 gates going to different routes in the interior.

Khalafow isn't a clan , they claim to be from Silcis, there isn't a subclan , sub sub-clan or even sub sub sub clan of silcis named khalafow. Since Silcis initially resided in Lama Jiidle area and ended up losing their dominion there in 18th century, it only makes sense that a group of them ended up fleeing to Xamar where they settled.

Xamar is older than Samaale let alone Murusade so a gate being named after them in past few centuries doesn't prove anything.

And those manuscripts that you are talking about don't date before the late 19th century and older external Arabic sources mention none of those things at all and outright contradict it.

It also would be impossible for external groups to found settlements in some area near san dunes with no resources.
As a Himyar or Persian i am going to leave my homeland to go to found a settlement in a barren dry uncultivated coastal area near a collection of sands and rocks? good luck arguing that.

You've obviously only seen the few manuscripts available online, as I mentioned above , the copies of the manuscript which were given to cerulli were copied from earlier manuscripts. Even if the latest copy is from 19th century, the topics are not from that century and the content was merely passed down through copying.

Our evidences suffice us if there are external sources that are found backing it up further then that works in our favour, if not then it still remains valid.

Himyari's finding settlements in banaadir coast occured before Islam , you've got no sources proving Samaale's residing there during the time of Periplus Of The Erythrean Sea.

It's clear that your hoteping is fueled by emotions and envy, zero facts or logic used.

 

[JamalFarah]

In the end, credible written sources hold the greatest value when establishing historical canon, even when considering other scientific methods such as DNA testing. You cannot argue that the Daroods are not Arab while claiming Arab descent yourself based solely on oral tradition.

DNA testing reveals that outside of Somali, South Asian regions, including Balochistan, are the primary source of ancestry alogn with South Indian.
Bantu influences constituting up to 10% of the genetic makeup.

The Benadiri narrative is also inconsistent. They claim to have arrived after the revelation of Islam and to have founded Mogadishu, yet Mogadishu had already existed at that time. Even without referencing the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, the city would have been a part of the ancient maritime trade routes connecting Phoenicia, Egypt, and Rome around 300 BC.

Looking at the population distribution, why are the Benadiri concentrated specifically in the Benadir region? This points to a later migration to an already thriving city. From an Arabian perspective, the northern Somali coast would have been a more strategic settlement location.

Now, let’s turn to historical accounts:

• Yaqut al-Hamawidescribed Mogadishu in 1220 as the most prominent town along the coast, inhabited by Berbers whom he described as "dark-skinned,"
• By the 13th century, Ibn Sa'id noted that the region was predominantly populated by Somalis, with minorities of Arab, Persian, and Indian merchants living in coastal towns.

All this shows is that Mogadishu—like many historic places in Somalia—is incredibly ancient and has been repeatedly taken over by different Somali factions. The broader history may not have mattered in the past as much because, in the end, it remains a Somali city, originally founded by Somalis, with de definition of Somali at one point included the Benadiri. The fact that the Benadiri have distanced themselves and now aim to promote a fabricated historical narrative only highlights the need to debunk such claims.

 

[Khaem]

It's evident that you're envious, don't blame us because you've got nothing better than Chinese whispers to derige your history from.

The projection is crazy, you're literally fighting first hand accounts with Chinese whispers

Well Arab and Persian banadiri's wrote their own history and that's sufficient. No such thing as Samaale cities anyways why would there be cities in the midst of baadiya.

It's obvious that darood aren't Arab so Arabs falsely claiming them doesn't prove anything. Each banaadiri Arab tribe knows itself and many still carry their larger tribe name such as Ashraaf Ba Alawi, Ashraaf Mahdali, Ba Fadhal, 'Amoudi, Ba Hamish, Ba Ghashwa, Hatimi, Makhzuumi, Mehri etc the list goes on.

Xamar existed before Samaale, suffice yourself with sticking to claiming geeljire civilizations, ik deep down you wish your ancestors had some sort of relevant urban civilization.

You don't decide what sort of evidence is irrelevant, that's for banaadiri's to decide when discussing their history

How stupid can you be? Harar isn't a hinterland metropolis? With direct trade routes to Xamar.

You are not Arab and Persians, you have no history only oral tales that were written down centuries later but some random shiekh not too long ago. You cannot just take a first hand account and call it irrelevant because it hurts your feelings. You are Indians who rocked up on our shores sad reality

 

[Idilinaa]

Nope Reer xamars aren't a clan confederation, there are reer xamar clan confederacies/alliances such as Reer Maanyo, Moorsho, Iskaashato, Dhabarweyne, Bandhawow, Indhoweyne, Qalmashuwe, Saddex Geedi.

Gibil Madows that hail from clans in interior are not majority amongst all Reer xamar gibil madows let alone all Reer xamars.

Moorsho firstly isn't a clan or lineage, they're a multi ethnic confederacy and it's the name of an area .View attachment 342905
Currently Moorsho consists of:
1-Reer Maxamud Eebow
2-ReerBaatay Eebow
3-Reer Ibrahim Eebow
4-Reer Khalafow
5-Reer Mahadow Amiin
6- Reer Aweys Nuurow
7-Ba Xamish
8- Xaatimi

The Ajuran within moorsho such as the 4 Reer Eebow and Mahadow Amiin claim to be from Abdalla Dayle . Xamar clearly existed centuries before that , the earliest known existing tribes are Reer Faqi, Shaanshi and Guudmana. The fact that they claim origin from subclans of larger clans in interior hints to how recent they arrived

Khalafow isn't a clan , they claim to be from Silcis, there isn't a subclan , sub sub-clan or even sub sub sub clan of silcis named khalafow. Since Silcis initially resided in Lama Jiidle area and ended up losing their dominion there in 18th century, it only makes sense that a group of them ended up fleeing to Xamar where they settled.

Xamar is older than Samaale let alone Murusade so a gate being named after them in past few centuries doesn't prove anything.

You've obviously only seen the few manuscripts available online, as I mentioned above , the copies of the manuscript which were given to cerulli were copied from earlier manuscripts. Even if the latest copy is from 19th century, the topics are not from that century and the content was merely passed down through copying.

Our evidences suffice us if there are external sources that are found backing it up further then that works in our favour, if not then it still remains valid.

Himyari's finding settlements in banaadir coast occured before Islam , you've got no sources proving Samaale's residing there during the time of Periplus Of The Erythrean Sea.

It's clear that your hoteping is fueled by emotions and envy, zero facts or logic used.

The confederacy collectively called Reer Xamar are founded by core pastoral lineages. Which migrants later married into and joined. As you have shown from Murshow 5 out of the 7 lineages claim Ajuran or Abdalla Dayle and the two rest are Somali clans with immigrant paternal roots that married into them.

Kinda like how Bosaso the commercial capital of Bari sultanate for example hosts Bah Gareen Majerteen Dishishe Harti, Kaptanlee Harti (founders), Bah Dir Majerteen clans, and later Carab Saleex (Mehri) joined them when the town grew , it would be like claiming Mahra founded Bosaso.

And later claim the proof is that it's called ''Bandar Qasim'' and other settlements have ''Bandar'' in them, shows Arab/Persian influence in the founding of Bari sultanate and the numerous coastal settlements. They also founded the tip of the horn called Ras. You see how ridiculous that sounds?

And Amin Khalafow is the Hawiye clan that founded the Bandawow confederacy, has nothing to do with sicilis which is connected to Abgaal. They are connected to a town in the upper levels of shabelle river called Qalafo in Ogaden and settled in Mogadishu during the towns founding.

It shows the towns connection to the interior and the production around the shabelle zone.

As for Murusola gate named after Murusade proves their importance in controlling that caravan trade route leading up to the town and how the inclusion of them in the towns inhabitants shows that the earliest inhabitants are just those people who set up on the coast as an exchange outlet for the interior. Mogadishu is commercial town after all. Not really that much different from the formation of the Eastern coastal settlements, other than ecology.

There other benadiri clans i have mentioned before like Shaykh Mummin who controlled the caravan route from Luuq/Buur Hakaba & to Mogadishu. There is also the Sheikhaal clan etc.

Only Saddex Geedi, Hirab/Yacuub are clans that arrived recently post 1600 according local traditions as Abgaal clans. and guess what just like the other older clans i mentioned, immigrants married into Yacuub and created Bafadal. So you have, Saddex Geddi, Yacoub and then also Bafadal Somali clans.

You are accusing me of a having no evidence when you provided zero yourself, there is no mention of Persian and Hymyarites in any external sources or local contemporary source, not even periplus that you mentioned which talks about local natives ruling and founding ports and sailing, selling interior products.

We have sources on migrations by merchants and people fleeing persecution like a certain Hatimi from Yemen settling in Mogadishu from the 12th the century, but we equally have mentions of migration of Somalis like Al-Jabarti, Al-Zayla and Al-Maqdishi settling in Aden and other places during the same time frame.

And i am just clarifying benadiri traditions. Which is actually supported by the earliest external refrences to Mogadishu which connects it to the interior inhabitants and production , it never mentions it as a coastal enclave or colony by any outside group in particular.

Went through it here:

There is not many immediate resources in Mogadishu or on the Benadiri coast in general, early on no one except producers from far interior or the hinterland would settle there and use it as an exchange center for their products. Whether they be agro-cultivators or camel herders.

People who lived in the hinterland of Mogadishu weren't all simple camel herding nomads either, a lot of them were settled agro-pastoralists living in a number of farming villages near/along the banks of the shabelle river. Each village inhabited by 200 people.

The earliest mentions of Mogadishu/Merca in medieval sources paints the same picture, connecting it to it's hinterland and describing the 50 villages along the banks of the river.

This is also supported by archeological excavations in Afgoye, that shows that the agricultural town pre-dates Mogadishu. The economic developments in the hinterland directly led to the formation, settlement and development of the urban towns on the coast.

Note that there other interior commercial urban towns(most now abandoned) along caravan routes, the oldest surviving of them being the walled city of Lugh. Benadiri Reer Shaykh Mumin clan is one example that is interspersed between the camel caravan trade routes that links to Lugh(Interior city) and Bur Hakaba(Agricultural center) from the coast of Mogadishu(Coastal City) and commanded it.
''The town depended on the grain brought by camels from the Galadi(Shabelle) River''