God exists because objective morality exists!

[Dhabaal]

"Agnostic Muslim"
This is enough evidence to realise the guy you've been exchanging with for the past seven pages is a spaz.

Says the so called ''Agnostic Atheist''
:siilaanyolaugh:

Saaxiib go back to using your cop outs , cuz you are dumb enough not to understand how someone is mocking you.

 

[Dhabaal]

You have accused us in lacking of philosophy but you refuse to differentiate between theology and philosophy.

View attachment 8548

As the screenshot clearly illustrates, discussion of the nature of God is a theological matter and not the matter of philosophy which discusses:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Please, learn the distinction.



I have already established a strong case for the evolutionary origins of morality but I've also discussed the fact/value distinction and how the distinction doesn't always apply. Moral values makes claims and those claims can be empirically verified.

You just continue to prove how ignorant you are . and the fact that you are speaking from your ass. There is a difference between Philosophy of Religion and Theology.

The philosophy of religion has been distinguished from theology by pointing out that, for theology, "its critical reflections are based on religious convictions".[8] Also, "theology is responsible to an authority that initiates its thinking, speaking, and witnessing ... [while] philosophy bases its arguments on the ground of timeless evidence."

Philosophy of Religion
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-religion/

Philosophy of religion is the philosophical examination of the central themes and concepts involved in religious traditions. It involves all the main areas of philosophy: metaphysics, epistemology, logic, ethics and value theory, the philosophy of language, philosophy of science, law, sociology, politics, history, and so on. Philosophy of religion also includes an investigation into the religious significance of historical events (e.g., the Holocaust) and general features of the cosmos (e.g., laws of nature, the emergence of conscious life, widespread testimony of religious significance, and so on). Section one offers an overview of the field and its significance, with subsequent sections covering developments in the field since the mid-twentieth century. These sections will address philosophy of religion as studied primarily in analytic departments of philosophy and religious studies in English speaking countries.

 

[Dhabaal]

Why do you guys keep arguing for the sake of an argument. STUPID ILLITERATE ATHEISTS!!

GO FUCKING PICK UP A BOOK ON EPISTEMOLOGY, INSTEAD OF DRAWING SHIT FROM YOUR ASS.

You guys don't even know half the shit you are saying . Always blabbering on an on about incoherent nonsense and just prove you are a dishonest bunch.

 

[The_Cosmos]

.

This is a myth from other religions. Quran 4:1 mentions nothing of a Rib. Most of the ideas that contradict evolution among Muslims are from the myths of other religions which were imported to Islam and attributed falsely to the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Adam (humans) were preferred or chosen over other people of his time as Allah stated clearly in Quran 3:33-34, just like Allah chose any prophet after him also Quran stated in these verses that all were "offspring". That means that humans were also offspring to a previous generations.

Islam is fully compatible.




I was parodying you guys. Saying i was an Agnostic Theist.

I don't know if God exists, but i lack the belief in the nonexistence of God. I endorse theism, but don't deny atheism

The Muslim consensus is quite clear on this matter. The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars (people who understand the book and Hadiths far better then you and I, agree that evolution is in blatant contradiction with Islam.

https://islamqa.info/en/34508

O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and women

True, but the Quran does state that Eve was created from Adam. Rib or not, that in of itself, contradicts evolution.

Click on the entire link to see why Adam was not, according to the Quran, an ancestor of apes.

 

[The_Cosmos]

You just continue to prove how ignorant you are . and the fact that you are speaking from your ass. There is a difference between Philosophy of Religion and Theology.

The philosophy of religion has been distinguished from theology by pointing out that, for theology, "its critical reflections are based on religious convictions".[8] Also, "theology is responsible to an authority that initiates its thinking, speaking, and witnessing ... [while] philosophy bases its arguments on the ground of timeless evidence."

Philosophy of Religion
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-religion/

Who the f*ck was talking about the philosophy of religion?! I gave you the definition of theology!! Stop fucking presenting arguments I never made and then using it against me!!

We were supposedly having a philosophical discussion but on several occasions, you began making claims about the nature of God which is NOT a philosophical question. It's a question of theology!!

 

[The_Cosmos]

Why do you guys keep arguing for the sake of an argument. STUPID ILLITERATE ATHEISTS!!

GO FUCKING PICK UP A BOOK ON EPISTEMOLOGY, INSTEAD OF DRAWING SHIT FROM YOUR ASS.

You guys don't even know half the shit you guys are talking about . Always blabbering on an on about incoherent nonsense and just prove you are a dishonest bunch.

I'm sorry, did my superior reasoning push the wrong button?


I have provided a scientific analysis of your arguments. You can't even differentiate theology from philosophy.


Talking about the nature of God is NOT a question of philosophy. Bloody buffoon.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I won't be able to reply for a bit.

@Dhabaal

Even your fellow Muslims in here won't back you up on the point of evolution. Islam and evolution are at odds with each other.

 

[Dhabaal]

Why do you keep arguing. Its obvious to anyone what you were trying to do. The existence of God is Philosophical and part of Philosophy of Religion.

You don't even know what epistemology or theology is. or the distinction between the two. Pretend to know something you don't know, you can't get any more intellectually dishonest.

Coming in here talking about Rib , which is something from other religions and not Islam. There is no mention of a Rib in the quran

The Muslim consensus is quite clear on this matter. The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars (people who understand the book and Hadiths far better then you and I, agree that evolution is in blatant contradiction with Islam.

The Theory evolution itself is Islamic theory you dumbfuck. There is no controversy.. It was was well known and taught theory in Medieval Islam. By the likes of Ibn Khaldun, Al-Jahiz, Ibn Miskawahy and many other Muslim scholars.

Muslim scientists and philosophers of the medieval period had no qualms in accepting evolution as a divine system for creation

.

For instance, the prominent Muslim polymath, philosopher and sociologist Ibni Khaldun (1332-1406), after a paragraph about the origin of human species, reminds the reader with a verse describing the deterministic nature of God’s system: “You will never find a change in God’s system.” In his famous book Muqaddimah, Ibni Khaldun proposes a theory of evolution starting from minerals. Minerals, according to Ibn Khaldun, evolve and become seeded and seedless plants. Plants evolve and reach to their zenith with palm trees and vines. The evolution continues with snails and shelled sea animals. The diversification in animal kingdom reaches the zenith of creation by gradual evolution into human beings with consciousness and thinking skills. According to Ibn Khaldun, monkeys are the link between animals and the first stage of humanity. Ibn Khaldun presents the theory of evolution by using scientific language, arguing that the essence of creation (in modern terminology: genetic code) passes through various changes (mutations) generating one species after another.

In addition to these, Muhammad al-Haytham (965-1039), who is known in the West by the name Alhazen, defends human evolution starting from minerals, plants, and animals in Kitabal Manazer, his book on optical science. Prominent leaders of Sufism such as Ibn Arabi (1165-1240) and Jaluluddin Rumi (1207-1273) also had no problem in accepting the idea of creation through evolution, an idea which was commonly held among Muslims. The Muslim Geologist al-Biruni (973-1048) in his book Kitab al-Jamahir also asserts that humans are created after long periods of evolution from simple organisms through natural selection.

Heck its well known Darwin got it from other muslim scholars, before it was called mohammedan theory of evolution.

True, but the Quran does state that Eve was created from Adam. Rib or not, that in of itself, contradicts evolution.

Click on the entire link to see why Adam was not, according to the Quran, an ancestor of apes.

All living things have the same ancestry and are created from the same thing in islam. They are created from the same thing. The Quran supports the idea that humanity was created through a successive process that involves perfecting and not an instant creation.

(Quran 24:45) Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, (another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (He wants).

^Every animal is from the same origin--Water. The first living cell existed in a primordial soup and it mainly consisted of water. This verse speaks about the inter-relation between various species' origins. All creatures are from same origin and certainly the human walking on two legs is also from the same.

(Quran 71:14) God created you in diverse stages

^This verse could be talking about our personal creation in the wombs of our mothers and it could also be a reference of the creation of humanity in full ('you' in the verse is plural). This verse carries both meanings! Since the verse (and such other verses) speaks in a generic sense without restricting its meaning to some particularity, here it refers to both - our evolutionary stages, and a child's successive developments in its mother's womb to birth


(Quran 2:35) And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

Here Adam and his mate refers to early mankind. They are dwelling in Jannah but displace later because of their Zulm (unequality). Then they are compared to their ancestors that did wrong. "Or you will be among the wrongdoers (al-zalimin)". This clearly implies there was someone before them dwelling. Therefore, Adam and his companion were NOT suddenly created.


-Creation of Adam from dust: We are all created from dust, just like our father Adam. Quran 18:37, Quran 30:20, Quran 35:11, Quran 40:67.

-Humans were not created suddenly: Just This verse is enough to refute such claim and there are many others (Quran 7:11) And We created you (humans, in plural form), THEN fashioned you (made you in the image you are, also addressing humans in plural form), then said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam! Simple as that, we were created in one formed and we were fashioned! That doesn't sound like a sudden creation.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dhabaal]

Islam supports evolution as a divine system of creation. Most of the Muslim scholars who developed and invented the theory of evolution long before Darwin even included Islam as their motivation for their research.

These Muslim scientists and philosophers who defended and teached the theory by the way were judges ,lawyers and members of the Sharia courts.

Muslims who say otherwise either copy and paste shit from other religions *Cough*Cough* ''Rib'' (Not in the Quran) or know absolutely nothing about evolutionary biology.


You know what i will make a thread sometime about the history of Evolution in the Muslim world. I will post what the different scientists and philosophers wrote about it.

 

[You]

@Dhabaal what happened to Adam and eve? Their story about being banished from heaven. All that go out the window if you accept evolution.

 

[Dhabaal]

@Dhabaal what happened to Adam and eve? Their story about being banished from heaven. All that go out the window if you accept evolution.

There is no such thing in the Quran,

Adam was reworded to stay in Heaven AFTER he won the contest against the angels (the naming of creatures) as Quran stated clearly in 2:35 and 7:19. When Adam (humans) disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree we were sent back to Earth.

You guys just prove how ignorant you guys are about the religion you supposedly reject.

I don't have to reconcile anything, there has never been a controversy between Islam and evolution.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I will provide a more concise reply once I have my laptop.

The fact that the majority of scholars reject evolution should be enough.

 

[Dhabaal]

I will provide a more concise reply once I have my laptop.

Don't bother, it''s been established you just argue for the sake of an argument and speak from your ass.

You know absolutely nothing.

The fact that the majority of scholars reject evolution should be enough.

Explain why Evolution as a scientific theory was invented and advanced by Early Muslim scientists and philosophers like Ibn Khaldun ,Al-Jahiz, Ibn Miskawahy and many other Muslim scholars, if its rejected in Islam.

Why was it called "The Muhammaden theory of the evolution of man from lower forms”?

You just contradict what you are saying. Copying and pasting stuff from other religions , just proves to show how ignorant you are.

 

[Jujuman]

@Dhabaal You can be an Agnostic Atheist but you can't be an Agnostic Muslim. I'll explain using the following:
1. Muslim means the one who submits to the Will of God (you can't submit if you're not sure He exists)
2. Qur'an explicitly makes the command that you do not doubt His words (which is only possible if you affirm his existence) in verse 11 of Surah Hud
"So be not in doubt about it verily, it is the truth from your Lord, but most of the mankind believe not."
Someone who doesn't doubt "the truth from your Lord" clearly is not an Agnostic.
3. I've explained to you in great detail why I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist in earlier posts so I won't repeat myself
4. This is why you cannot be an Agnostic Muslim the two are mutually exclusive.
5. There's obvious contradiction between Islam and Evolution by natural selection perhaps best summarised by the following statements

All life (including us) have evolved from a unicellular organism.

"So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him [lit. “My soul”], then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him”

[al-Hijr 15:29]

Which one is it? And I'm expecting an answer

 

[NoName]

GO FUCKING PICK UP A BOOK ON EPISTEMOLOGY, INSTEAD OF DRAWING SHIT FROM YOUR ASS.

Epistemology is the study of knowledge. Philosophy of religion is a completely different branch of philosophy.

But then again this is someone who pricelessly said his premise is justified because the conclusion implies it.

 

[Dhabaal]

@Dhabaal You can be an Agnostic Atheist but you can't be an Agnostic Muslim. I'll explain using the following:
1. Muslim means the one who submits to the Will of God (you can't submit if you're not sure He exists)
2. Qur'an explicitly makes the command that you do not doubt His words (which is only possible if you affirm his existence) in verse 11 of Surah Hud
"So be not in doubt about it verily, it is the truth from your Lord, but most of the mankind believe not."
Someone who doesn't doubt "the truth from your Lord" clearly is not an Agnostic.
3. I've explained to you in great detail why I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist in earlier posts so I won't repeat myself
4. This is why you cannot be an Agnostic Muslim the two are mutually exclusive.

I was parodying you guys. Saying i was an Agnostic Theist. It is the same as saying i am a Theist, trivial and meaningless.

I don't know if God exists, but i lack the belief in the nonexistence of God. I endorse theism, but don't deny atheism

Secondly Having doubts in Allah is a verily acccepted as natural and as a aspect of someones faith.

Having doubts in Allah Almighty is natural and one should avoid being too concerned about them. In fact, doubts and evil thoughts are a sign of one’s faith.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8377

All life (including us) have evolved from a unicellular organism.
"So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him [lit. “My soul”], then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him”

[al-Hijr 15:29]

First of all the verse states: Just This verse is enough to refute such claim and there are many others (Quran 7:11) And We created you (humans, in plural form), THEN fashioned you (made you in the image you are, also addressing humans in plural form), then said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam! Simple as that, we were created in one formed and we were fashioned! That doesn't sound like a sudden creation.

If you are going to quote the verse do it correctly.

Secondly its states in (Quran 24:45) Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, (another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (He wants).


^Every animal is from the same origin--Water. The first living cell existed in a primordial soup and it mainly consisted of water. This verse speaks about the inter-relation between various species' origins. All creatures are from same origin and certainly the human walking on two legs is also from the same.

Which one is it? And I'm expecting an answer

Saaxiib if you are going to quote a verse, do not quote a fabricated one.

 

[Dhabaal]

Epistemology is the study of knowledge. Philosophy of religion is a completely different branch of philosophy.

But then again this is someone who pricelessly said his premise is justified because the conclusion implies it.

Epistemology goes under Philosophy of Religion. Different branch,?? horte stop talking , before you embarrass yourself even further. You know nothing, yet you keep talking.

The Epistemology of Religion
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-epistemology/

Contemporary epistemology of religion may conveniently be treated as a debate over whether evidentialism applies to religious beliefs, or whether we should instead adopt a more permissive epistemology. Here evidentialism is the initially plausible position that a belief is justified only if “it is proportioned to the evidence”. For example, suppose a local weather forecaster has noticed that over the two hundred years since records began a wetter than average Winter is followed in 85% of cases by a hotter than average Summer. Then, assuming for simplicity that the records are reliable, the forecaster is justified in believing with less than full confidence that this Winter, which is wetter than average, will be followed by a hotter than average Summer. But evidentialism implies that it would not be justified to have full belief, that is belief with 100% confidence. Again, consider someone who has a hunch that this Summer will be hotter than average but cannot justify that hunch further. Hunches are not considered evidence, so the belief is not considered justified. If, however, the huncher can cite a good track record of hunches about the weather that have turned out correct then the belief would be considered justified. For although hunches are not considered evidence, memories about past hunches are, as are the observations that corroborated the past hunches.

Evidentialism implies that full religious belief is justified only if there is conclusive evidence for it. It follows that if the arguments for there being a God, including any arguments from religious experience, are at best probable ones, no one would be justified in having a full belief that there is a God. And the same holds for other religious beliefs, such as the belief that God is not just good in a utilitarian fashion but loving, or the belief that there is an afterlife. Likewise it would be unjustified to believe even with less than full confidence that, say, Krishna is divine or that Mohammed is the last and most authoritative of the prophets, unless a good case can be made for these claims from the evidence.

 

[Jujuman]

Fellow Gaalo after reading this latest retarded reply to add to the long list of previous retarded replies I strongly suggest you don't respond to this @Dhabaal. He's either a dedicated troll or he's a Zoomalus Retardus. I pay him the respect of assuming it's the former rather than the latter.

 

[NoName]

Epistemology goes under Philosophy of Religion. Different branch,?? horte stop talking , before you embarrass yourself even further. You know nothing, yet you keep talking.

No, it doesn't. This is hilarious. What you quoted is the part of epistemology that deals with religion. So what? There's part of it that deals with physics as well. Does that mean epistemology is a branch of physics? I've realised that your reasoning is retarded a while ago! Madness!

 

[NoName]

Fellow Gaalo after reading this latest retarded reply to add to the long list of previous retarded replies I strongly suggest you don't respond to this @Dhabaal. He's either a dedicated troll or he's a Zoomalus Retardus. I pay him the respect of assuming it's the former rather than the latter.

For me the funniest bit is that fact you can bank on him to f*ck it up even when he copy-pastes an argument that merits response. Just ask him a couple of questions and he crumbles, even when the said argument is of some legitimacy. This level of self-destruction is just legendary!