History meme about Al-Andalus.
- Thread starter Aurelian
- Start date
The Muslim and Christian populations and kingdoms in Iberian penisula were interwinded a lot. You could saw christian kings being aided by Muslim forces or Sultans against other christian kings and ves versa.
You could saw Muslim knights fighting in Christian armies or Christians fighting in Muslim armies, this is why many Christian warriors had the title Siyed.
You could saw Muslim knights fighting in Christian armies or Christians fighting in Muslim armies, this is why many Christian warriors had the title Siyed.
All of the Caliphs had white mothers. Like literally nearly all of them and the ones with Arab consorts, those wives probably had a white mother too and weren’t even fully Arab. They were probably light haired women with Arab fathers. So yes, though-out the ages, they were probably 95% European.
They were the epitome of ‘white is right’. No wonder modern Arab still put whitness on a pedestal.
So yes, the Caliphas of Al-Andalus looked like white Spanish men.
They were the epitome of ‘white is right’. No wonder modern Arab still put whitness on a pedestal.
So yes, the Caliphas of Al-Andalus looked like white Spanish men.
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The alchemist
VIP
They were mixed and would look like modern Turkish people in terms of their complexion. They would not like Germanic Europeans, most full Iberians don't even look like that.
Those people were not like the Spanish of today, not Berbers either.
This was an individual who clustered with Andalusians during the early period:
46% ancient Berber, 8.8% post-Iron Age Levantine, and 45.2% Iberian middle Bronze Age, basically Mediterranean that would look like MENA than "White."
Overall, these guys would not look like White people. More like lighter MENA extraction at times, sometimes not even that.
You have Moriscos today that have a unique set of genetics showing the heterogeneity of the Andalusians later (they got elevated North African because of the mixture. I think the NA ancestry could have likely been similar for a lot of Andalusian Muslims that historically were connected with the North African coast). The Moriscos of North Africa today seem to have some Sephardic Jewish ancestry that might have been absorbed after the expulsion:
I used the Visigoth sample. This does not need to be from Visigoths, since they are less Germanic-like and more like modern French variation. Those goths were not like the Nordics. We have one Andalusian Visogoth and they were highly mixed with MENA, only looking 55.2% French-like.
So overall, these people were not "white."
Those people were not like the Spanish of today, not Berbers either.
This was an individual who clustered with Andalusians during the early period:
46% ancient Berber, 8.8% post-Iron Age Levantine, and 45.2% Iberian middle Bronze Age, basically Mediterranean that would look like MENA than "White."
Overall, these guys would not look like White people. More like lighter MENA extraction at times, sometimes not even that.
You have Moriscos today that have a unique set of genetics showing the heterogeneity of the Andalusians later (they got elevated North African because of the mixture. I think the NA ancestry could have likely been similar for a lot of Andalusian Muslims that historically were connected with the North African coast). The Moriscos of North Africa today seem to have some Sephardic Jewish ancestry that might have been absorbed after the expulsion:
I used the Visigoth sample. This does not need to be from Visigoths, since they are less Germanic-like and more like modern French variation. Those goths were not like the Nordics. We have one Andalusian Visogoth and they were highly mixed with MENA, only looking 55.2% French-like.
So overall, these people were not "white."
Yes, in general, the looked Spaniard, but some of the Caliphs were reported to have natural blond hair. So the meme is more about these blond caliphs rather than the general population
That's whats funny about it they pose them as foreigners when most of the time , they were made up of natives that converted and the leadership was mixed, Islam contributed a lot to the Iberian identity and culture, its a shame that many of them feel reluctant to acknowledge it and try to emphasize their judeo-christian heritage alone.
www.politico.eu
Let’s be a bit more honest about what a ‘European identity’ looks like
Emphasizing Europe’s “Judeo-Christian” heritage and looking only to antiquity betrays the European project, excluding the various peoples and entities that shaped the Continent.
www.politico.eu
The alchemist
VIP
No. Even for these khalifs, that would not be the case for reasons I explained and will further show for the last time.
It would have been a rare exception rather than even a rare 'norm' -- maybe one khalif out of the rest. Like ginger in Syria; or blue-eyed Egyptian. It's overplayed nonsense, IMO. They would not look like today's Spaniards because the average non-mixed Spanish of the time was more MENA than today's Spanish. Spain today has a 9.5% blondism rate and has way more Germanic DNA than the average unmixed Iberian of medieval times. On top of that Andalusians in general were highly mixed even outside these elite lineages which would make the pool they drew out from not like the normal Iberians for the most part.
But even if we entertain beyond that, the average Spaniard who was not Muslim back then, outside of Andalusia, had less Germanic ancestry and more MENA overall than today's Spaniard who has 9.5% blondism. One needs to further preface with 9.5% only means light brown hair, not the yellow you see is common among Germanics. Whenever you see a Spanish woman with blonde hair, it's most likely dyed.
An important thing to emphasize again is that the average Andalusian Muslim mixed with the rest, not only the khalifs which changed the Andalusian genetic makeup further as well. This was very comprehensive and widespread beyond a couple of khalifs mixing highly - practically the majority of the Muslims expanded the demographic scope of the heterogeneity throughout the sub-region:
One of the samples we have are significant West African as well. So one cannot meme away African presence in Andalusia. I've said it before, those dark Moor people were among those lighter ones so the British did not purely make propaganda and exoticize the Muslims of the region out of spite. Some of that was rooted in truth.
They found one "blackamoor" (funny word) individual in the late medieval age in Islamic Sicily was well, only that individual was highly West African.
Anyway, the central point is that the meme is highly unlikely and tries to Europeanize Islamic Spain retrospectively into today's notion of the European sense of "racial" belonging through meme culture. It stands to reason that phenotype as far as melanin levels go was unlike the proportions today given that Spain of old pre-Islam was not like extant Spain and that Spain changed extremely overall in the Islamic period toward a heterogenous MENA shift, from an already unlikely to a lesser likely chance of this Germanic blondism trend among these khalifs. The average Muslim mixed with the locals, not just the khalif which changed the average outlook of the region itself. The notion that the khalifs mixed while the general Muslims did not is not true.
The alchemist
VIP
Spain washed away significant Islamic, unique built-up cultural and linguistic identity imprints to such an extent one would not confuse today's Spanish with the Islamic one. I would say it was the opposite of it being an endemic European thing but more like a unique regionalization that was very much within the Islamic world, as an extension of it. Pretty much the lines of "Europe" at the time had receded their Christian-cultural geography further north into France. This means the cultural parameters of Iberia had shifted significantly due to Islamic presence.
Despite that, today Europeans are selective with the Islamic presence. They would go as far as lies about Islamic Iberia for some Western historic ideology of Judeo-Christian or whatever else they're cooking up.
Judeo-Christian is a false term for several reasons. Jews in Al Andalus were closer to Muslims than Christians because Muslim rule gave them the opportunity to flourish.
They mixed with whites cause they lived among them obviously
I wouldn't put modern racial lenses in something that happened a millenia back. The Arabian tribes mixed with everyone in the caliphate. That's why Sudan for example has such high J paternal haplogroup. Which they got from Arabian tribes migrating and mixing with the nubians in the lower nile. This is no different for the Arabic tribes that settled and ruled Andalusia.
That’s a fair point indeed but it doesn’t change the fact that white wives and concubines were prized a whole lot more than Madow ones during that time period.They mixed with whites cause they lived among them obviously
This is no different for the Arabic tribes that settled and ruled Andalusia.
True, the average Spaniard wasn’t blonde whatsoever and probably favored a more Mediterranean look, but I’d wager the constant marriages with European Med women meant that they no longer had a Khaleeji Phenotype.
Look at all of the Ummayad Khalifa and research who their mothers were. Hardly any of their mothers were Arab.
They were called Moors for a reason. The first ones to conquer the Iberian Peninsula had dark skin. I mean this is common sense, they were ancient phenotype Berbers and Desert Arabs.
They mixed in later generations, but the dark phenotype was still very present among them.
They mixed in later generations, but the dark phenotype was still very present among them.
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As much as the Spanish inquisition tried to wash away the Islamic and arabic imprints they were not entirely successful with since a lot of it remains
tyrannicalmanager
pseudo-intellectual
The majority of the scientist/scholars in Al-andulus were Arabs.
The sources describing some of the caliphs tell they were full natural blonde.
The alchemist
VIP
That is correct. But imagine how different it was when they went to extreme lengths to purge the characters of the past period. An example of this was the systematic "re-Latinization" of the Spanish language. They were not entirely successful, with today's Arabic being the second largest influence in Spanish above that of Germanic or other Roance influences.
