Is Morals Real Or Do We Make Them Up?

[DR OSMAN]

For the past while I have been watching lots of serial killer documentaries and I am wondering is morality good and evil true or do we make it up? If someone thinks they are doing good by killing like say a soldier kills in a war we praise that and say it's OK but if that same person does that in peace time, we all of a sudden say its bad yet it's the same very act. So is the actual act the problem or is the intention the problem?

What disturbs me even further is what if someone doesn't think they are doing wrong and following they're urges and desires to murder? It's no different to when normal people follow their desires to get a job, married, etc it seems natural to you to do those things to follow your desires, but what if the desires and urges of a killer is to murder and it's like a goal in their life. For example, I smoke cigarettes morally this is wrong in my society but my urges and desires want me to smoke, i choose to ignore what society says and I am accepted for that but a serial killer isn't even though he is following his desires and urges no different to mine. The only difference is society has said I am fine but the killer isn't.

What if society agreed that killing was no different to like smoking, and welcomed them in then we would have someone else in that society questioning the morals of that society. So I wonder is morality even true or do we make them up as we go along? Technically speaking I am not sure if you guys have watched the purge movies, but if u have you know what I am talking about, society can agree on anything and do anything and it will be ok even though it appears wrong to me and you due to our morality constraints in our society!!!

 

[Etacovda S'lived]

Yes morality is made up by us humans as an evolutionary survival tool. We made (often) unwritten social contracts where you must not do things that upset or transgress against others. When someone kills or robs someone else, it's universally wrong and doing harm to said person is not so bad. It's like how we made up the institution of marriage.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

People are only what their circumstances make them.

 

[xisaabiye]

Highest standard of Morality is what Allah dictates, anything else carries a bias relative to time and place

 

[Bahal]

Morality is entirely subjective

 

[Etacovda S'lived]

Highest standard of Morality is what Allah dictates, anything else carries a bias relative to time and place

Agree to disagree sxb. People were making legally binding contracts forbidding murder, robbery, sexual infidelity etc. waaaay before organized religion. For example the institution of marriage is almost 40,000 years old.

 

[xisaabiye]

Agree to disagree sxb. People were making legally binding contracts forbidding murder, robbery, sexual infidelity etc. waaaay before organized religion. For example the institution of marriage is almost 40,000 years old.

You didn't understand my point.

The only Absolute pristine morality is from Allah. It's impossible to have an absolute moral conduct as humans because we all carry bias. That doesn't mean humans xant do good, but we collectively need One Who understands what's better for us, whether we like it or not & irregardless of time and place. That's why ilaahay says

"But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah knows, while you know not"

Allahs wisdom is infinite and eternal, while ours is finite and subjective.

 

[DR OSMAN]

You didn't understand my point.

The only Absolute pristine morality is from Allah. It's impossible to have an absolute moral conduct as humans because we all carry bias. That doesn't mean humans xant do good, but we collectively need One Who understands what's better for us, whether we like it or not & irregardless of time and place. That's why ilaahay says

"But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah knows, while you know not"

Allahs wisdom is infinite and eternal, while ours is finite and relative.

No1 is arguing god is infinite and eternal, but your islamic interpretation of it is finite and relative just like anybody else. Hence morality being subjective is the only reasonable answer, because people will interpret the quran according to how they like and this is demonstrated through-out islamic history, if for one second u think your islamic view is provable through-out islamic history, you got another thing coming. Islam has held many different views through-out the times just like it does now.

Some questions for you to ponder on. Never fear questions for it should strengthen your faith not cripple it. You speak of Allah constantly and how it's all about us and we were created to worship him and this is fine, you are telling us the purpose of life, world, and ourselves but the big question a skeptic will ask is how can god tell me my purpose if he doesnt define what his purpose is!!! Does islam define what allah purpose is? is allah purpose to simply just create and get worship? if that is the case, if you take those away, that means allah has no purpose anymore and therefore limited himself!!! So what is allah purpose because the second u define it, it will mean he is dependent on that purpose and without it he will be irrelevant and if u dont define it then u run into the problem of god having no purpose and therefore shouldn't tell anyone else their purpose.

 

[Etacovda S'lived]

You didn't understand my point.

The only Absolute pristine morality is from Allah. It's impossible to have an absolute moral conduct as humans because we all carry bias. That doesn't mean humans xant do good, but we collectively need One Who understands what's better for us, whether we like it or not & irregardless of time and place. That's why ilaahay says

"But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah knows, while you know not"

Allahs wisdom is infinite and eternal, while ours is finite and subjective.

Ok first, do we agree that humans had a sense of what is right and wrong well before organized religion? Ok, so is it possible that these humans idealized "the perfect moral being" by making up Allah? If so, why do you take it at face value that Allah is the perfect moral being without giving serious consideration to how he likely came into being?

 

[xisaabiye]

No1 is arguing god is infinite and eternal, but your islamic interpretation of it is finite and relative just like anybody else. Hence morality being subjective is the only reasonable answer, because people will interpret the quran according to how they like and this is demonstrated through-out islamic history, if for one second u think your islamic view is provable through-out islamic history, you got another thing coming. Islam has held many different views through-out the times just like it does now.

Some questions for you to ponder on. Never fear questions for it should strengthen your faith not cripple it. You speak of Allah constantly and how it's all about us and we were created to worship him and this is fine, you are telling us the purpose of life, world, and ourselves but the big question a skeptic will ask is how can god tell me my purpose if he doesnt define what his purpose is!!! Does islam define what allah purpose is? is allah purpose to simply just create and get worship? if that is the case, if you take those away, that means allah has no purpose anymore and therefore limited himself!!! So what is allah purpose because the second u define it, it will mean he is dependent on that purpose and without it he will be irrelevant and if u dont define it then u run into the problem of god having no purpose and therefore shouldn't tell anyone else their purpose.

Our interpretation of Islam and morality based on direct teachings of the prophet(saw), his students and their students with an unbroken sound chain. This is why there is no bias whatsoever. It is explicitly forbidden for me to interpret Islam or its moral code as I have no authority and I'm not a Mujtahid Mutlaq.

Your second point is funny, what does purpose even mean? It's defined as a means to an end, therefor it's a dependent. It's dependent on outcomes to reach a final aim, goal, purpose. That's it! Allah is al awal and al aakhir, he is the beginning he is the last, he is the means and the end & he is the independent therefore your premise is completely inapplicable and un befitting of his nature. Anything that claimes "Godhood" & goes against Allahs attributes and how he described himself immediately ceases to be god.

 

[DR OSMAN]

xisaabiye, so allah merely exists because he is the first and the last. Purpose cannot be applied to his existence since its not applicable to his nature!!! So your god either has a purpose or doesn't? I assume u mean he is above purpose, therefore just by that we can conclude he has no purpose since he is above it!!! Therefore its like that saying your applying which says 'nothing is like allah' since he is the first and last. Therefore allah must be nothing since everything including purpose doesnt apply to him!!!

 

[xisaabiye]

xisaabiye, so allah merely exists because he is the first and the last. Purpose cannot be applied to his existence since its not applicable to his nature!!! So your god either has a purpose or doesn't? I assume u mean he is above purpose, therefore just by that we can conclude he has no purpose since he is above it!!! Therefore its like that saying your applying which says 'nothing is like allah' since he is the first and last. Therefore allah must be nothing since everything including purpose doesnt apply to him!!!

You're so close but so far. You're trying every faculty a human has to understand Allah but you're making one mistake, you're equating Him with His creation. Purpose is a dependent nature, its a law of physics that every action has a reaction and we're either actions or reactions. This can only be applicable to a creation since it's a law of creation, and creation in its very essence is dependent and in search of a purpose. Allah is free from all these vices, as he said "Facaalul lima yuriid" doer of what he wills. He is free from vices of creation whether it be purpose, need, want etc.

It's funny that because you can't fathom there's a "Being" truly free from all the vices that limit you as a human, you conclude it's non existent

 

[xisaabiye]

Ok first, do we agree that humans had a sense of what is right and wrong well before organized religion? Ok, so is it possible that these humans idealized "the perfect moral being" by making up Allah? If so, why do you take it at face value that Allah is the perfect moral being without giving serious consideration to how he likely came into being?

I don't know what that means, from what I know there was religion since the beginning of time

 

[DR OSMAN]

You're so close but so far. You're trying every faculty a human has to understand Allah but you're making one mistake, you're equating Him with His creation. Purpose is a dependent nature, its a law of physics that every action has a reaction and we're either actions or reactions. This can only be applicable to a creation, who in its very essence is dependent and in search of purpose. Allah is free from all these vices, as he said "Facaalul lima yuriid" doer of what he wills. He is free from vices of creation whether it be purpose, need, want etc.

It's funny that because you can't fathom there's a "Being" truly free from all the vices that limit you as a human, you conclude it's non existent

Look at this way because this how I see it...I see two lanes...one lane is something and the other lane is nothing. Your saying everything in the something lane isnt allah(nothing is like allah as quran says) yet you also refuse to accept the logical opposite of something which is the nothing lane because u say he is merely above this. So if he isn't something and he isnt nothing, what is this magical space your going on about?

Are u satisfied to say allah could be nothing? becuz that would satisfy the logic 'everything isnt allah' because nothing like can be like nothing!!!

 

[Etacovda S'lived]

I don't know what that means, from what I know there was religion since the beginning of time

I'm saying people had a sense of right and wrong long before the idea of monotheism. I'm arguing that those people came up with the idea of god based on their understanding of right and wrong. They gave him this quality that he is perfect and infallible.

 

[xisaabiye]

Look at this way because this how I see it...I see two lanes...one lane is something and the other lane is nothing. Your saying everything in the something isnt allah(nothing is like allah) yet he also refuse to accept the logical opposite of something which is the nothing lane because u say he is merely above this. So if he isn't something and he isnt nothing, what is this magical space your going on about?

I'm very logical, I know through thermodynamics alone that all energy has a source of "eternal energy" "independent energy" and without that source nothing would exist. That's a complete scientific truth. If I asked you to describe the purpose of this "eternal energy " you'd be stumped, since it has no beginning nor end. You'd speculate but conclude it's beyond purpose and independent of such a thing

 

[Poets]

Look at this way because this how I see it...I see two lanes...one lane is something and the other lane is nothing. Your saying everything in the something lane isnt allah(nothing is like allah as quran says) yet you also refuse to accept the logical opposite of something which is the nothing lane because u say he is merely above this. So if he isn't something and he isnt nothing, what is this magical space your going on about?

Are u satisfied to say allah could be nothing? becuz that would satisfy the logic 'everything isnt allah' because nothing like can be like nothing!!!

What you are describing is Materialism, which is the notion that everything can essentially be reduced to matter; there is nothing immaterial. A muslim does not accept such an assertion because materia itself abides by the laws of physics which have been brought into existence. Hence, logically, the Creator of these laws is not restricted by them.
Your "something" is essentially flawd because not everything is reducible to materia, counsioussness being one of them.

 

[xisaabiye]

I'm saying people had a sense of right and wrong long before the idea of monotheism. I'm arguing that those people came up with the idea of god based on their understanding of right and wrong. They gave him this quality that he is perfect and infallible.

Who said there wasn't always monotheism?

 

[Hilaac]

Animals follow their desires and urges heedlessly, what separates humans is our faculty for reasoning and judgement. More importantly our innate compass, the fitrah which naturally guides us away from evil. The fitrah can become perturbed however this would be felt as unease and physiological stress. Serial killers often have mental disorders, they develop addictions and compulsions to continue killing. In a right frame of mind would the kill? Why do soldiers develop PTSD? Why do we feel guilty when we hurt others even if it doesn't affect us? Allah created a fitrah in all of mankind. A truly healthy happy person doesn't kill for joy or satiation when there are less evil means to achieve that.

 

[Poets]

Yes morality is made up by us humans as an evolutionary survival tool. We made (often) unwritten social contracts where you must not do things that upset or transgress against others. When someone kills or robs someone else, it's universally wrong and doing harm to said person is not so bad. It's like how we made up the institution of marriage.

The morals are made up by humans, and it is an evolutionary survival tool in the same sentence? Which one is it? Also, "universally wrong" is what is known as objective morality, which is in opposition with subjective morality, i.e. "humans made it up". Again, which is it?