Islamic theology (Kalam) and the rise of Science with Prof Mehmet Bulgen

[Al-Ma'mun]

Most Muslim theologians praised here as pioneers of scientific thought were Mutazilites, who were later, unjustly, condemned as heretics. It tells a lot about what went wrong.

Among these Mutazilites are al-Nazzam, al-Jahiz, and also Ibn Mattawayh, who is rightly praised here for an experiment Galileo reiterated centuries later, and the BBC confirmed with a real test in 2014: Without any air, a heavy object and feathers fall with the same speed.

while the converso mexicano @Omar del Sur salafi sheikhs were believing the world was flat

In 1966, when Ibn Baz was vice-president of the Islamic University of Medina, he wrote an article denouncing Riyadh University for teaching the "falsehood" that the earth rotates and orbits the sun.[27][28] In his article, Ibn Baz claimed that the sun orbited the earth,[29][30][31] and that "the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down by mountains lest it shake".[31] As a result of the publication of his first article, Ibn Baz was ridiculed by Egyptian journalists as an example of Saudi primitiveness

 

[Omar del Sur]

"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) narrated that from Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi (may Allah have mercy on him), when he said:

Imam Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al-Munaadi narrated from the prominent scholars who are well known for knowledge of reports and major works in religious sciences, from the second level of Ahmad’s companions, that there was no difference of opinion among the scholars that the sky is like a ball."

Consensus that the Earth is round - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

this is superior logic and intellect? making stuff up and appealing to racism to make your position seem stronger?

Is the Earth Round or Flat? | Shaykh Abdul Aziz ibn Baz​

Sheikh Ibn Baz didn't believe the earth is flat, he believed the sun revolved around the earth. That is geocentrism not flat earth.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Most Muslim theologians praised here as pioneers of scientific thought were Mutazilites, who were later, unjustly, condemned as heretics. It tells a lot about what went wrong.

Among these Mutazilites are al-Nazzam, al-Jahiz, and also Ibn Mattawayh, who is rightly praised here for an experiment Galileo reiterated centuries later, and the BBC confirmed with a real test in 2014: Without any air, a heavy object and feathers fall with the same speed.

this is just a really shallow argument you're making here. even if it's true that there were some mutazilah who had some scientific achievements- that means their views are correct when it comes to theology? there's a bunch of atheist scientists who are more advanced scientifically than them.

Al-Razi was one of the greatest scientists of all time and he was an atheist. By your logic, we could just as easily talk about Al-Razi's scientific achievements and say people should convert to atheism.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

this is just a really shallow argument you're making here. even if it's true that there were some mutazilah who had some scientific achievements- that means their views are correct when it comes to theology? there's a bunch of atheist scientists who are more advanced scientifically than them.

Al-Razi was one of the greatest scientists of all time and he was an atheist. By your logic, we could just as easily talk about Al-Razi's scientific achievements and say people should convert to atheism.

Your kind are responsible for the decline of the Islamic world and continue to keep us in our dark ages.The Islamic world my Mexican friend needs an Islamic enlightenment so the Islamic World can compete technologically and scientifically with Europe,East Asia,Latin America and North America.

You my friend went from darkness (Catholicism) to darkness (extremist fundamentalist literalism).It is not your fault you were exposed to it, it was our failure in the Muslim world who succumbed and lost to these folks but slowly we are making progress which globalization/the internet is help.

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

Islamic golden age only existed during the times of the rationalists rather than the literalists.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Your kind are responsible for the decline of the Islamic world and continue to keep us in our dark ages.The Islamic world my Mexican friend needs an Islamic enlightenment so the Islamic World can compete technologically and scientifically with Europe,East Asia,Latin America and North America.

You my friend went from darkness (Catholicism) to darkness (extremist fundamentalist literalism).It is not your fault you were exposed to it, it was our failure in the Muslim world who succumbed and lost to these folks but slowly we are making progress which globalization/the internet is help.

If you have a math test tomorrow or you have a test on JavaScript- is believing in democracy and secularism going to make you better at the test?

How is believing in democracy and secularism going to make you better at math or JavaScript?

I believe in Salafiyyah. I was taught it by Arabs from Yemen, it isn't a Mexican thing. When you work on JavaScript, JavaScript doesn't care whether you're Sufi, Salafi, liberal "progressive Muslim" or whatever.

The big people in tech are the Indians. Hindus from India are the tech champions. This idea that you'll magically get better at science and tech if you imitate Europeans and adopt their beliefs- I think it's silly. You might as well think worshipping Hindu idols will make you better at tech.

A lot of Pakistanis do well in tech. How good you are science and tech isn't necessarily based on your religious creed.

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

If you have a math test tomorrow or you have a test on JavaScript- is believing in democracy and secularism going to make you better at the test?

How is believing in democracy and secularism going to make you better at math or JavaScript?

I believe in Salafiyyah. I was taught it by Arabs from Yemen, it isn't a Mexican thing. When you work on JavaScript, JavaScript doesn't care whether you're Sufi, Salafi, liberal "progressive Muslim" or whatever.

The big people in tech are the Indians. Hindus from India are the tech champions. This idea that you'll magically get better at science and tech if you imitate Europeans and adopt their beliefs- I think it's silly. You might as well think worshipping Hindu idols will make you better at tech.

A lot of Pakistanis do well in tech. How good you are science and tech isn't necessarily based on your religious creed.

Didn't the literalists call mathematics and philosophy heresy. Ibn Taymiyah and Al Ghazaali believed that fired burned because the angel of fire burns it not because of scientific laws and heat/oxygen.

 

[Omar del Sur]

come to think of it... I knew a Salafi from India who did very well in tech. I think Indians are just plain good at tech regardless of their religious affiliation.

Didn't the literalists call mathematics and philosophy heresy. Ibn Taymiyah and Al Ghazaali believed that fired burned because the angel of fire burns it not because of scientific laws and heat/oxygen.

I have never heard of math being heresy. I have heard of the idea that God causes fire to burn. what difference does it make? if you believe God is the one who heals you you can still take medicine. you just take the medicine and then thank God for healing you. if you believe God creates the fire, I think you still strike the match like anyone else.

this whole idea that religion and science are enemies is a myth. the Muslim scientist from whom we get the word "Algebra" after the name of his book... he started his book with the basmalah.

 

[Omar del Sur]

also since I forgot... the classical scholars and their conflict with philosophy. you have to take into context- in their time Aristotle was this huge, huge deal. there were "Muslim philosophers" who would put Aristotelian philosophy above what the Quran said. the scholars were refuting some of the weird beliefs promoted by the ancient Greek philosophers. that's what the conflict was about, they were refuting ancient Greek philosophy and this sort of cult that had grown around it. if you read the Incoherence by Al-Ghazali you can see what I mean.

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

Not only was math a heresy for the literalists, but also the printing press was regarded invitation in the practice of writing quran on printed paper instead of the traditional old school method.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Not only was math a heresy for the literalists, but also the printing press was regarded invitation in the practice of writing quran on printed paper instead of the traditional old school method.

What scholar or scholars declared math as heresy? Where is the fatwa? And what scholar or scholars gave fataawa against the printing press? Where are the fataawa against the printing press?

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

Ibn Taymiyah called out philosophers and the mathematicians for using equations and laws to understand the natural world rather than just saying Allah made it that way. He was a hypocrite who himself studied mathematics just to say it's like another religion. The same is for his students and his forefather who was more rational Al ghazaali. Weather you like it or not literalism is idiotic.

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

What scholar or scholars declared math as heresy? Where is the fatwa? And what scholar or scholars gave fataawa against the printing press? Where are the fataawa against the printing press?

Slavery and racism was justified by the medieval literalist scholars who called Africans uncivilized and closer to animals. You wonder why King Faisal faced so much backlash when he made the rational choice to abolish slavery only in the 1970s in Mecca and Medina. According to literalists, you need to purchase all the slaves for them to be free which is lunacy. Freeing slavery, giving women rights to education, and jobs were of the biggest accomplishments of the reformist King Faisal.

All of this was condemned by the clergy whom you look up to stating that women can not go out with a male mahram meaning they can't work or go to school because their male relatives had can't go to work and supervision them like babes according to the literalist interpretation. His reforms sadly led to his demise and they rushed to try to re-establish the horrible things such as the sexist laws, and fascist laws that existed prior. Now, they only recently allowed women to drive.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Ibn Taymiyah called out philosophers and the mathematicians for using equations and laws to understand the natural world rather than just saying Allah made it that way. He was a hypocrite who himself studied mathematics just to say it's like another religion. The same is for his students and his forefather who was more rational Al ghazaali. Weather you like it or not literalism is idiotic.

Yes, Ibn Taymiyyah refuted some of the ideas that came from Greek philosophy. Who believes in ancient Greek philosophy? No one believes in Aristotelianism anymore- not in the way some people in those days did.

But math???? where did Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah attack math? I think you're making stuff up.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Slavery and racism was justified by the medieval literalist scholars who called Africans uncivilized and closer to animals. You wonder why King Faisal faced so much backlash when he made the rational choice to abolish slavery only in the 1970s in Mecca and Medina. According to literalists, you need to purchase all the slaves for them to be free which is lunacy. Freeing slavery, giving women rights to education, and jobs were of the biggest accomplishments of the reformist King Faisal.

All of this was condemned by the clergy whom you look up to stating that women can not go out with a male mahram meaning they can't work or go to school because their male relatives had can't go to work and supervision them like babes according to the literalist interpretation. His reforms sadly led to his demise and they rushed to try to re-establish the horrible things such as the sexist laws, and fascist laws that existed prior. Now, they only recently allowed women to drive.

Ibn Khaldun- the sociologist- said some racist stuff about blacks, therefore not being Westernized means Ibn Khaldun's comments on blacks somehow reflects on your interpretation of Islam?

Quit changing the subject. What scholar or scholars declared math as heresy? Where is the fatwa? And what scholar or scholars gave fataawa against the printing press? Where are the fataawa against the printing press?

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

1970's King Faisal reforms, Abolishing slaver, Supporting the civil rights movement, supporting women's rights to jobs, and education.

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

Ibn Khaldun- the sociologist- said some racist stuff about blacks, therefore not being Westernized means Ibn Khaldun's comments on blacks somehow reflects on your interpretation of Islam?

Quit changing the subject. What scholar or scholars declared math as heresy? Where is the fatwa? And what scholar or scholars gave fataawa against the printing press? Where are the fataawa against the printing press?

It doesn't the same way Ibn Taymiyah doesn't. Now you're sniffing the coffee. Wasn't Ibn Taymiyah the one who said that arabs more superior than non arabs. He was even more fascist lol caught in 4k .

 

[Omar del Sur]

It doesn't the same way Ibn Taymiyah doesn't. Now you're sniffing the coffee. Wasn't Ibn Taymiyah the one who said that arabs more superior than non arabs. He was even more fascist lol caught in 4k .

So are you going to show me the alleged anti-math stuff or what? Are you just admitting now that you made that stuff up?

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

So are you going to show me the alleged anti-math stuff or what? Are you just admitting now that you made that stuff up?

No that you seen the scholars that you stand on a racist fascists who use their narrow minded view of the world to puzzle it with Islam, you go back to asking the same question. I'll be nice and give you the answer again, Ibn Taymiyah understood mathematicians as astrologists who use their apply their expertise on the unseen world rather than leave it to Allah. Not only do him and his students Ibn Katheer and Ibn Al Qayim deny that, they also go by biblical understandings of the natural world like how the world is on the back of a whale. Hell, you might except this like you believe allah orders angels to make a fire which AL Ghazaali stated.

 

[Omar del Sur]

No that you seen the scholars that you stand on a racist fascists who use their narrow minded view of the world to puzzle it with Islam, you go back to asking the same question. I'll be nice and give you the answer again, Ibn Taymiyah understood mathematicians as astrologists who use their apply their expertise on the unseen world rather than leave it to Allah. Not only do him and his students Ibn Katheer and Ibn Al Qayim deny that, they also go by biblical understandings of the natural world like how the world is on the back of a whale. Hell, you might except this like you believe allah orders angels to make a fire which AL Ghazaali stated.

Ibn Taymiyyah understood mathematicians as "astrologists"? wait.... Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Kathir and Ibn Qayyim believe the world is on the back of a whale?????

if any of this is true then show where they say these things. quit making stuff up lol.