Instead make a dua for me to get married.
Mohammed Hijab gets called a pedo by the far-right, Zionists, and Ryan Garcia after an old video resurfaced in which he talks about underage marriage
- Thread starter Fobnimo Till I Dhimo
- Start date
World
VIP
I think it was the custom during the 7th century for the marriages of both prepubescent boys and prepubescent girls to be arranged in advance. This was for security reasons, in order for their future to be protected, and during that time and custom the family would do it out of compassion, as they wanted the best for their boys and girls during such turbulent and dangerous times.
But, this marriage wasn't consummated until later when they were older, nor that they couldn't refuse later. The hadith about Aisha being married at 6, and consummated at 9, didn't exist at all during the time of Abu Hanifa, and his students al-Shaybani/Abu Yusuf who founded the Hanafi madhab, or during the time of Imam Malik. The first use of Aisha's hadith was by al-Shafi in 810-820.
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I know. It was the norm across the world and they’d consummate their marriages later on after puberty. Western nobility used to do this as well.
Sahib did I ever insinuate that I called the Prophet what this evil user @Reformed J said?
I’m so disgusted that I can’t even write it out. Like I just can’t.
World
VIP
What did he say ?
He said that I’m near enough a Kafir who who said the Prophet s.a.w is the P word. I can’t believe he even typed this out.
@Reformed J
Show me proof insinuated that? I’ve had enough of these incels lying about me. It’s lying they have 0 shame and honor.
World
VIP
What on earth
Its a baseless attack due to his hatred of you from what i saw of his prior posts
No, it’s one thing to hate someone, Lord knows a lot of male posters hate me, but to lie in this disgusting manner especially in the light of our discussions shows how such a low quality individual he is @Reformed J is.What on earth
Its a baseless attack due to his hatred of you
Feel free reformed to go through this thread. You’re nasty individual and you don’t know my beliefs. I’m not a radfem but for a nasty low value man who lies and spews incel shit, you’d label me anything. Most of our discussions have been about your hatred of black women. What does that have to do with rad fem?
You’re a misogynist through and through and that’s how men like you operate. Say shocking lies and tries to make it stick on someone.
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I not gonna even pretend and say I know anything about the historical interworking of these figures. However I did some research and found a reasonable answer to your doubts.
I not gonna even pretend and say I know anything about the historical interworking of these figures. However I did some research and found a reasonable answer to your doubts.
I read those answers on Islamqa before and it's a very weak rebuttal. Why is that the case? Because now they're on the defensive and have to find any evidence as to why these narrators are not weak. But by doing so, you've established that not all is agreed upon regarding those transmitters.
Even Imam Al Dhahabi who believed we can still use 'Urwa (the main source for the hadith) after his journey to Iraq admits that his memory changed:
قال الحافظ أبو الحسن بن القطان من أنه هو وسهيل بن أبي صالح ، اختلطا وتغيرا ، فإن الحافظ قد يتغير حفظه إذا كبر
"Al Hafidh Abu Husain ibn Qattan mentioned that 'Urwa and Suhail ibn Abi Salih both became confused and changed."
Al Dhahabi: "A hadith master can be susceptible to changing when they reach old age".
Btw this is a statement by one of the greatest hadith masters that ever lived in the early Salaf who was named Al Qattan.
This hadith about Aisha's age is relying on the testimony of one person ('Urwa) who became extremely old and would forget everything.
Even Imam Malik condemned any hadith transmitted from 'Urwa after he went to Iraq which is why he didn't add this hadith in his Muwatta:
وقال عبد الرحمن بن خراش : بلغني أن مالكا نقم على هشام بن عروة حديثه لأهل العراق ، وكان لا يرضاه
"It has reached me that Imam Malik condemned all hadith transmitted by 'Urwa to the people of Iraq and that he was not pleased with these transmissions."
It's sad that we are basing all of this on one man who narrated Aisha's age when he was extremely old and lost his memory.
Have you read through the second link?
I've read it. Not that I care to read from Islamqa as I know of the person who owns the website. Regarding the hadith, most of the transmissions are from 'Urwa. The others who also transmitted the hadith have also been put to question.
I've established that 'Urwa is not reliable.
Let's look at A'mash now:
1. Disconnecting of hadith:
- قال ابن معين: كل ما روى الأعمش عن أنس فهو مرسل.
Ibn Ma'een: "Any narration from A'mash from Anas is disconnected."
- قال البخاري: الأعمش لم يسمع من ابن بريدة.
Bukhari: "A'mash never heard from ibn Buraidah."
(yet he transmitted from him)
- قال أبو زرعة: لم يسمع الأعمش من عكرمة شيئاً ولا من ابن سيرين ولا من سالم بن عبد الله.
Abu Zur'a: "A'mash newer heard anything from Ikrimah nor Ibn Sireen nor Salim ibn Abdillah"
As for tadlees:
- قال أبو حاتم: الأعمش قليل السماع من مجاهد وعامة ما يروي عن مجاهد مدلس.
Abu Hatim said: "Everything that he heard from Mujahid is Mudalas."
- قال شعبة: كفيتكم تدليس ثلاثة الأعمش وأبو إسحاق وقتادة.
Shu'ba: Three people are enough as examples of tadlis (in hadith): A'mash, Abu Ishaq and Qatadah."
- قال يعقوب بن سفيان: وأبو إسحاق رجل من التابعين وهو ممن يعتمد عليه الناس في الحديث هو والأعمش إلا أنهما وسفيان يدلسون، والتدليس من قديم.
Yaqub ibn Sufyan:
"... As for A'mash, him and Sufyan both practised tadlees from long ago."
Point being, every pathway to this hadith goes through people who practised narrating disconnected chains (A'mash) or through someone who transmitted it after they became unreliable ('Urwa).
Another more important point that nobody has yet answered:
Bukhari narrates that Aisha said about herself that she had reason and was aware when the Muslims migrated to Abyssinia which occurred during the 5th year of Prophethood? So how on earth could she have been able to have reason then if she married the Prophet SAW later at 9 when she had reason many many years before?
Nobody can answer that
Can you please post actual well known scholars who share your opinion? As much I’d love to believe this, I simply can’t since hardly any scholar shares this belief. I’ve seen a modern Syrian scholar cast doubts on the Hadith but even he admits that chain and transmission of the Hadith is sound. He simply doesn’t believe it’s the most factual because he compares it to the Seerah of Ibn Ishaq who notes that Aisha was at least 4 when her family converted to Islam which would make her older upon marriage but hardly anyone questions the authenticity or f the actual chain.
When you say well know scholars, remember you live in the West. The only ones you are exposed to are the typical Salafi Saudi attired 'Ulama who have a monopoly online thanks to the petrodollar state of Saudi Arabia.
I assure you there are a plethora of real traditional Sunni 'Ulama who do not believe the age of Aisha was 9. I'll mention a few heavyweights, but sadly you will not know of them. Just to mention a few:
- Shaykh Ahmad al Tayyib (Shaykh ul Azhar)
- Shaykh Salahuddin ibn Ahmad al Idlibi (Biggest faqih amd Mufti of Idlib)
- Shaykh Ali Jum'a (Previous Mufti of Egypt and Shaykh of Al Azhar University)
- Shaykh Ahmad Kareema (Shaykh and Faqeeh of Islamic Jurisprudence in Al Azhar University)
There are plenty plenty more. You can find their statements online. I would even argue that plenty of the traditional 'Ulama of Azhar, Zaytuna, Fez are now agreeing with this opinion. But I feel sorry for people who are only exposed to a black and white Salafi doctrine. They will never know. Sad for them
Don’t worry, I’m not one of those people who believe that only scholars funded by the Saudis are scholars. I used to be a Salafi but that’s all in the past now. However, if I’m going to take something seriously, the scholar in question must be someone with an Ijaza and he can’t be an apologist. It’s very easy for us to discount something because it makes us uneasy. Facts and evidence must be displayed with regards to any topic to
do with Islam.
Can you please send me their papers with regards to this topic if you can? Sorry to inconvenience you but if possible, please send it.
Most of these statements on the age of Aisha are usually found as statements they made in a Q&A on live television in Arabic that were then transcribed onto the internet. Most of these traditional Ulama haven't really written entire pieces of this subject, I assume it's probably not an important subject of interest nor are they addressing an English speaking population where a lot of these controversies are more noticeable. It is not apologetic but that's how it will probably be interpreted by those who disagree.
Ultimately all of them use the exact same arguments I mentioned earlier. The two books I mentioned earlier in Arabic also provide supporting statements by actual 'Ulama. I'll attempt to dig them up and see if I can organise it here inshaAllah
I recommend that you post it on a new thread so everyone on this forum can benefit from your alternative views, the available evidence for it and your personal weighing of its strength/validity.
Most people will not be able to digest 15 pages in their spare time to understand your sole post here.
@Angelina
@DojaKhat
I'm not sure if you understand Arabic, but here are some videos of the biggest traditional Ulama speaking aboutnthis subject and bringing evidence that she was not the age of 9:
The first is Shaykh Ahmad al Tayyib, he is Shaykh ul Azhar. Which means he is alongside the Mufti of Egypt, the biggest and most knowledge scholar of the entire country. They are equivalent to the Pope in Catholicism.
Start from 3:00 onwards, he mentions there is nothing reliable in our studies of transmission of hadith that suggests Aishas age being 9.
Also another huge heavyweight of the Islamic scholarly world, Shaykh Ahmad Kareema, Professor and Shaykh of Islamic Jurisprudence in Azhar University:
He mentions that she was minimum 18 years old when she first married. They're not being apologetic as you can see they bring the evidence from the sources.
This is a video of him producing the evidence:
Also another Mufti, this time from Idlib. The biggest scholar of hadith in Idlib and the most well known Shaykh Salah ul Din Al Idlibi talks about it in this video:
Another very prominent Azhari Shaykh and scholar, Shaykh Issam Talmiya
When your only source of Islamic knowledge is Twitter and TikTok dawah guys who parrot some Saudi Sheikh, it doesn't surprise me that many are confused. This is a well known opinion. The fact that many don't even know its widespread shows what times we live in
@DojaKhat
I'm not sure if you understand Arabic, but here are some videos of the biggest traditional Ulama speaking aboutnthis subject and bringing evidence that she was not the age of 9:
The first is Shaykh Ahmad al Tayyib, he is Shaykh ul Azhar. Which means he is alongside the Mufti of Egypt, the biggest and most knowledge scholar of the entire country. They are equivalent to the Pope in Catholicism.
Start from 3:00 onwards, he mentions there is nothing reliable in our studies of transmission of hadith that suggests Aishas age being 9.
Also another huge heavyweight of the Islamic scholarly world, Shaykh Ahmad Kareema, Professor and Shaykh of Islamic Jurisprudence in Azhar University:
He mentions that she was minimum 18 years old when she first married. They're not being apologetic as you can see they bring the evidence from the sources.
This is a video of him producing the evidence:
Also another Mufti, this time from Idlib. The biggest scholar of hadith in Idlib and the most well known Shaykh Salah ul Din Al Idlibi talks about it in this video:
Another very prominent Azhari Shaykh and scholar, Shaykh Issam Talmiya
When your only source of Islamic knowledge is Twitter and TikTok dawah guys who parrot some Saudi Sheikh, it doesn't surprise me that many are confused. This is a well known opinion. The fact that many don't even know its widespread shows what times we live in
Do you know any classical scholars who believed that Aisha was older?
Internet Nomad
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I remember watching this original clip of MH and cringing because he used such obscene words to try to drive his point across.
This topic is really sensitive and needs to be addressed in a way that will give proper context for the marriage but when you use such heavy words it completely throws people off Balance.
Sometimes I think these dawah bros have religious autism they have a great understanding of the faith but don’t know how to explain sensitive aspects of the seen to a normal person without being too insensitive.
Because we are talking about a topic that needs a lot of nuance and your delving into things like presentism, social and biological pressure that do not exist nowadays so the average person will only look back with their own tinted glasses of the modern age and judge people in 6th century Arabia for something that wasn’t done out of perversion but necessity.
I have this old thread on the topic that I want to revamp in the future to add more depth to my analysis but it should give some clarity on the marriage done between Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and Aisha(RA).
Thread 'Aisha’s marriage.'
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/aisha’s-marriage.144774/
This topic is really sensitive and needs to be addressed in a way that will give proper context for the marriage but when you use such heavy words it completely throws people off Balance.
Sometimes I think these dawah bros have religious autism they have a great understanding of the faith but don’t know how to explain sensitive aspects of the seen to a normal person without being too insensitive.
Because we are talking about a topic that needs a lot of nuance and your delving into things like presentism, social and biological pressure that do not exist nowadays so the average person will only look back with their own tinted glasses of the modern age and judge people in 6th century Arabia for something that wasn’t done out of perversion but necessity.
I have this old thread on the topic that I want to revamp in the future to add more depth to my analysis but it should give some clarity on the marriage done between Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and Aisha(RA).
Thread 'Aisha’s marriage.'
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/aisha’s-marriage.144774/
One that comes to mind is al Tabari (author of Tafsir al Tabari) who said Aisha was born before Jahilliya meaning automatically disqualifies her being much older. This is in his book تاريخ الطبري
Statement:
تزوج أبو بكر في الجاهلية قتيلة بنت عبد العزى فولدت له عبد الله وأسماء، وتزوج أيضا في الجاهلية أم رومان بنت عامر فولدت له عبد الرحمن وعائشة، فكل هؤلاء الأربعة من أولاده و لدوا في الجاهلية
"Abu Bakr married Qutaila bint Abdul Uzza in the time of Jahilliya, and she gave birth to Abdullah, Asma, and he then later married Umm Ruman bint Amir who gave birth to Abdulrahman and Aisha. All of these 4 were born in Jahilliya."
There are plenty more like Raghib al Asfahani رحمه الله, the great theologian. Different Sunni classical historians and Ulama like Ibn Sa'd in his Tabaqaat mention at the very least a few different ranges of her age one being much older. So not all are in agreement with the hadith.
Although these are not explicit, anyone with a little bit of intelligence will be able to know that there is at the very least no concensus. That is at the minimum.
