Nilotic the thread

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic

Could you perhaps from time to time contribute to the Culture and History section with theories/articles etc on the origins of Nilotes. I haven't done too deep research into it and you seem like a specialist in it.

I read some stuff that it isn't even a real language family, but just a 'left over' group lazy European linguists grouped all non-Niger-Congo and non-Afro-Asiatic Africans in who live above the equator.

However, genetics does show it is a real group.. although there are many many odd outliers/edge cases, especially the Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Western Sahel (Songhai), North Sudanese Nubians, and even many of the ones living on the border area between Ethiopia-Sudan who aren't directly tied to the Anuak-Dinka-Nuer seem a bit unique genetically (often related to Paleo-Omotics - 50-50/75-25 between them and the Anuak-Nuer). The Kunama and Nara also seem very odd to me, some theories out there that they came from East Chad / Darfur and migrated East a millenia or so ago (they got linguistic cousins in East Chad called the Maban grouping) and mixed with Eritreans subsequently. Lastly, many people don't know this but the Mbuti Pygmies are technically Nilotes (linguistically) and obviously have different origins as well. Nilotes are way more complex than people think.

I'll make some effort to contribute to that section with my knowledge on my people.

Nilotic, Surmic and Gumuz are all definitely related populations, but I have heard that the Nilo-Saharan phylum is not as concrete.

The Nubians, Toubou, Fur, Masalit, Zaghawa, Nara and the other residents of the Central Sahara are the Saharan component of the Nilo-Saharan group and could probably be their own language family.

There are Nilotic tribes in Southern Chad as well, so I wonder if the Saharans and the proto-Nilotes separated from each other in the Central Saharan region.

The Mbuti Pygmies apparently speak Central Sudanic languages -- which are ostensibly part of the Nilo-Saharan phylum; the relationship between them hasn't been firmly established.

Nilotic is a very specific linguistic group and the languages are all very closely related; the Mbuti are not part of that specific grouping. It would seem that Mbuti is merely part of another branch (Central Sudanic) within Nilo-Saharan.

I think that the distance between Central Sudanic and Nilotic is significant.

What I found strange was the Nilotic link with the San via the A-M32 clade and the connection between the Nilote Y-DNA A-M13 and Khoisan A-M51.

Nilotics seem to be related to everyone in the continent.

 

[Amirah]

I've learned the words that relate to ethnic groups; words like Indoyeer, Madow, Cadaan and Carab. Abowe means brother and Abayo means sister. Basra uses words like Huuno and it means dear.

What draw you to this forum? How did you find it? And since most of the topics here are specific and unrelatble to you, what keeps you around? Are you also member of other African forums that maybe we can check out?

 

[Malikfiqi]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I'm not trying to make modern claims to the lands in the far North; I am saying that we had a presence there from 9000 BC to at least 1,000 BC -- when Nilotics are first depicted on ancient Egyptian murals..


..That's thousands of years and it's anything but brief.

I can't find anything on the "The Garden Arbor" and its a relation to a remnant Dinka section being subject to slave raids in 1870.



I'm going to provide some much needed historical context regarding the Nubians; I'll provide material on their origins in Darfurn and how they found themselves to be on the banks of the Nile in Southern Egypt. The Nubians were called 'Nubae', 'Nobate', 'Noba', 'Nobiin', 'Nuba' and 'Nubian'.


Origins in Darfur:


According to the linguist Robin Thelwall:









The first reference to the Nubae (Nubians) is by Erastothenes in 200 BC. Darfur had its own Nubian languages; one of them (Meidob) is now extinct. It's clear that the Nubians came from this area.


Roman invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt:


Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD) details the dynamics in Southern Egypt; he details the security threats posed by the Blemmyae and the Nubians. He then outlines the steps taken by Emperor Diocletian:



My evidence concerning the invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt by Diocletian.




It's clear that all the riverine populations that lived on the banks of the Nile from Elephantine down to Kush were absorbed by the Nubians -- per the invitation of the Roman Emperor Diocletian.

Introduction of Nubian languages to the Khartoum area:







Nubian contact and relations with the powers of that time:




Nubian infiltration of the Kushite kingdom:


According to D. A. Welsby;



The Nubians were known to Greek, Roman, Ethiopian and Arab writers as 'Nubae', 'Nobades', 'Nobates', 'Noba' and 'Nuba'. The only groups that are Nubian in the Nuba mountains are the Hill Nubians; their variant of Nubian is spoken in Dilling, Kadaru and other areas around it.

The Arabs must have applied the name 'Nuba' to the other (unrelated) groups that live in the Nuba mountains.

The Nubians of Sudan and Egypt are the direct descendants of the Nubae from Darfur; they were not wiped out or obliterated due to the ravages of the slave trade just two centuries ago.

You mentioned some niger-congo generic influence in sudan was it becuase of the Bantu-migrations or the arab slave trade?? And do the proto-bantu minority have anything to do with it

 

[Nilotic]

What draw you to this forum? How did you find it? And since most of the topics here are specific and unrelatble to you, what keeps you around? Are you also member of other African forums that maybe we can check out?

I was doing research on Nilotic genetics through forums and I was curious about the 20% Yoruba-like DNA that Nilotics supposedly have.

I literally typed in "Yoruba Nilotic forum" and Somalispot turned up in addition to the other forums that I also read through; I initially only read things that pertained to genetics and Sudanese history but then I read threads in the Global affairs section.

I recently read threads in the General section... and it's very entertaining; Basra is particularly funny. I stay because I'm bored; there really isn't anything more substantive to it.

I also frequent the Nigerian website Nairaland, but I haven't created an account just yet.

The Sudanese forums (North & South) are defunct and that's why I frequent forums from other African communities.

 

[Nilotic]

You mentioned some niger-congo generic influence in sudan was it becuase of the Bantu-migrations or the arab slave trade?? And do the proto-bantu minority have anything to do with it

I honestly don't know when we acquired Niger-Congo admixture but it certainly wasn't a result of the Arab slave trade and I doubt that it had anything to do with the Bantu expansion.

The Niger-Congo admixture seems to be present in all Sudanese populations to varying degrees; the Sudanese Arabs have it at a rate of 10% and we have it at 20%.

What proto-Bantu minority are you referring to? The third largest tribe in South Sudan are the Azande -> 16th Century immigrants from the Central African Republic and the DRC, so they couldn't possibly be responsible for our Niger-Congo admixture.

 

[Jiron]

welcome to the forum friend, hope that you have a pleasant experience

 

[Nilotic]

welcome to the forum friend, hope that you have a pleasant experience

Thanks, mate, I appreciate the welcome.

 

[Maxaa kaa galay]

@Nilotic Are yall related to the people in Darfur?

 

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic Are yall related to the people in Darfur?

No, beyond some very ancient genetic relations, we have no connections to any of the tribes in Darfur; the 'Nilo-Saharan' phylum is not a convincing language family.

I think that Nilotic (Dinka, Nuer, Anyuak) is completely unrelated to Nubian, Nara, Toubou, Meroitic, Fur, Zaghawa and other languages that radiated out of the Central Sahara.

Dinka and classical Nubian (Nobiin) have a shared vocabulary at 27% but this is only because the Alwa Nubian kingdom introduced the Nubian language to the Gezira area -- where the Dinka lived; we interacted for a millenia and the 27% must be the result of loan words.

 

[Macalin dheerow]

No, beyond some very ancient genetic relations, we have no connections to any of the tribes in Darfur; the 'Nilo-Saharan' phylum is not a convincing language family.

I think that Nilotic (Dinka, Nuer, Anyuak) is completely unrelated to Nubian, Nara, Toubou, Meroitic, Fur, Zaghawa and other languages that radiated out of the Central Sahara.

Dinka and classical Nubian (Nobiin) have a shared vocabulary at 27% but this is only because the Alwa Nubian kingdom introduced the Nubian language to the Gezira area -- where the Dinka lived; we interacted for a millenia and the 27% must be the result of loan words.

So they are there own ethno group and what makes you think that Nilo-saharan is not a valid ethnolinguistic group? Curious to know, I admit I don’t know a lot about this.

 

[Nilotic]

So they are there own ethno group and what makes you think that Nilo-saharan is not a valid ethnolinguistic group? Curious to know, I admit I don’t know a lot about this.

Linguists have not been able to establish that all the disparate branches of Nilo-Saharan are in fact related; the Saharan languages and Songhai seem to be the outliers.

Nilotic, Surmic, Gumuz/Komuz and Central Sudanic seem to be related, but there is yet no concrete evidence that the Saharan languages that include Nubian, Nara, Toubou, Meroitic, Taman, Kunama and others are related to the other branches.

Songhai, Gao and Dendi are distinct from even the Saharan branches and form their own cluster and they're certainly not closely related to Nilotic.

Nilo-Saharan is a mess; I think that the branches are more closely related to each other than they are to Afro-Asiatic and Niger-Congo languages, but some of them don't seem particularly close.

 

[Macalin dheerow]

Linguists have not been able to establish that all the disparate branches of Nilo-Saharan are in fact related; the Saharan languages and Songhai seem to be the outliers.

Nilotic, Surmic, Gumuz/Komuz and Central Sudanic seem to be related, but there is yet no concrete evidence that the Saharan languages that include Nubian, Nara, Toubou, Meroitic, Taman, Kunama and others are related to the other branches.

Songhai, Gao and Dendi are distinct from even the Saharan branches and form their own cluster and they're certainly not closely related to Nilotic.

Nilo-Saharan is a mess; I think that the branches are more closely related to each other than they are to Afro-Asiatic and Niger-Congo languages, but some of them don't seem particularly close.

So there has not been any good research on Nilo-saharan languages and genetics to shed light on this matter. Hopefully more research will be done in the future.

 

[Macalin dheerow]

I'll make some effort to contribute to that section with my knowledge on my people.

Nilotic, Surmic and Gumuz are all definitely related populations, but I have heard that the Nilo-Saharan phylum is not as concrete.

The Nubians, Toubou, Fur, Masalit, Zaghawa, Nara and the other residents of the Central Sahara are the Saharan component of the Nilo-Saharan group and could probably be their own language family.

There are Nilotic tribes in Southern Chad as well, so I wonder if the Saharans and the proto-Nilotes separated from each other in the Central Saharan region.

The Mbuti Pygmies apparently speak Central Sudanic languages -- which are ostensibly part of the Nilo-Saharan phylum; the relationship between them hasn't been firmly established.

Nilotic is a very specific linguistic group and the languages are all very closely related; the Mbuti are not part of that specific grouping. It would seem that Mbuti is merely part of another branch (Central Sudanic) within Nilo-Saharan.

I think that the distance between Central Sudanic and Nilotic is significant.

What I found strange was the Nilotic link with the San via the A-M32 clade and the connection between the Nilote Y-DNA A-M13 and Khoisan A-M51.

Nilotics seem to be related to everyone in the continent.

Could you expand on the last sentences, how are you guys related to Sans and how could that be possible?

 

[Nilotic]

So there has not been any good research on Nilo-saharan languages and genetics to shed light on this matter. Hopefully more research will be done in the future.

There seems to be some genetic basis for grouping these branches together but the linguistic component of this is lacking.

 

[Nilotic]

Could you expand on the last sentences, how are you guys related to Sans and how could that be possible?

Someone pointed out to me that the age of the Nilotic A-M13 of 10.7ka puts a limit on how long Nilote type people could have been in Northeast Africa; it's likely that we originally came from Southern Africa and migrated North to our current location.

Look at the map for Haplogroup A and where it has its highest frequency:

Haplogroup A (Y-DNA) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[The alchemist]

@Nilotic

Great to have you here.

 

[adventurequestworlds1.0.2]

@romanzolanski

 

[Nomadite]

Nilotics are related to both populations, so choosing either party doesn't make sense; we're also related to the San and have some non-Eurasian North African DNA. We're at the nexus of virtually every African population.

I like that Cushitic populations are not as sexual in their dances and that you are extremely proud; the Niger-Congo populationd have beaten all of us (demographically) and the continent is virtually synonymous with them.

Because of this would you be okay wiht adopting swahili? I personally see that as a loss for nilotics as that will probably spur your assimilation into the niger congo sphere. However, hopefully swahilization in south sudan is unsucessful.

 

[Nomadite]

@Nilotic

Could you perhaps from time to time contribute to the Culture and History section with theories/articles etc on the origins of Nilotes. I haven't done too deep research into it and you seem like a specialist in it.

I read some stuff that it isn't even a real language family, but just a 'left over' group lazy European linguists grouped all non-Niger-Congo and non-Afro-Asiatic Africans in who live above the equator.

However, genetics does show it is a real group.. although there are many many odd outliers/edge cases, especially the Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Western Sahel (Songhai), North Sudanese Nubians, and even many of the ones living on the border area between Ethiopia-Sudan who aren't directly tied to the Anuak-Dinka-Nuer seem a bit unique genetically (often related to Paleo-Omotics - 50-50/75-25 between them and the Anuak-Nuer). The Kunama and Nara also seem very odd to me, some theories out there that they came from East Chad / Darfur and migrated East a millenia or so ago (they got linguistic cousins in East Chad called the Maban grouping) and mixed with Eritreans subsequently. Lastly, many people don't know this but the Mbuti Pygmies are technically Nilotes (linguistically) and obviously have different origins as well. Nilotes are way more complex than people think.

Nilo Saharan is a bullshit family and just the wastebasket of the late greenberg that fit into neither NG or AA yes. Nilotic langauges themselves and their brances are related, but if they are related to other "Nilo Saharan" languages is yet to be established and likely wont be, Zaghawa, Zarma, Kanuma, Kanuri etc are all probably isolates.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

We mostly speak our own variant of Arabic -- Juba Arabic. English is the language the 'Government' put down as the official language but very few of us speak it outside the diaspora.

We have 64 tribes so we can't pick a language from any of these languages; the Dinka constitute 40% of the population and occupy 7 of the 10 States, but picking Dinka would be grounds for more war.

My tribe (Dinka) are already unreasonable and arrogant so choosing our language would make us more tyranical; 80% of the Government is already Dinka -- a scale of power that is 2x in excess of our demographic standing.

We chose English because of its utility in the modern world; we also want to leave any vestige of Arab influence behind us; even Swahili is too close to Arabic for many of us.

Our disdain for Arabs is excessive and we need to curb that; a middle-age South Sudanese woman refused to work in an English group assignment with a Lebanese woman and cited the North-South war as a reason.

Why did you deliberatly forget the Nuer?
I am starting to think you are a somali troll.