OG Video of Siyaad Barre

[Dues Ex Machina]

balderdash, far away from reality. people will go where eva they get help from once their livelyhood,towns and water wells destroyed. when random arrests and killings by the 1000s carried out againest thm cos of qabiil.
your argument that some started revolt againest Barre solely ethiopia wanted and therefore their lackeys is just hogwash spiting in the face of those who resisted a rotten system. your fallacy is unbelievable and certainly wont sow any positivity today,infact such statements will neva bring any closeness among somalis rather further ignite old wounds. Enlighten up

This isn't to 'ignite old wounds' but to educate individuals that are unaware of the geopolitical climate as well as some of the destabilizing forces at that time. To clear some things up for you, firstly there was no targeting of any civilians or towns before rebel groups with aid from Ethiopia attempted to overthrow the government while hiding among civilian populations. They joined forces due to a common interest, to oust the current leader at that time. The reasoning behind this is that those rebel leaders wanted power for themselves and the people they enlisted for help were in most cases their clansmen. Ethiopia wanted stooges at the helm of the government and knew the leader at the time was looking only after the interest of Somalia, they used and discarded these factions after they received their intended goal of toppling the government and fast forward 30 years and ethiopian boots are on the ground in the country that is an undeniable fact. Obviously there are going to be detractors of any great figure, but in the case of Somalis their resentment is tribally based, which is fine with me but don't act as if your critique is objective. What would any effective government do when there are rebels attacking government forces? The answer is obvious.
But if you don't believe me how about an objective analysis from the CIA?

"Ethiopia is interested in the overthrow of President Siad's regime, replacement with a weaker government more favorable to its position on the Ogaden issue, and a government that would remove US facilities from the country. Ethiopian support of two major Somali dissident groups, the Somali Democratic Salvation Front (SDSF) and the Somali National Movement (SNM) are the primary vehicles through which Ethiopia is attempting to accomplish its objectives. Somalia is, however, as much at fault in this relationship as is Ethiopia. Since the early 1960s, Somalia has intermittently supported and directed insurgency in the Ogaden region of Ethiopia as part of an effort to unite under one flag all ethnic Somalis many of whom live in or migrate into the Ogaden for pastorage. "

"In the latter half of 1981, SDSF units began to stage raids against Somali border towns. In June 1982, the SDSF escalated its operations by joining regular Ethiopian units in incursions along the disputed border. In the course of these attacks, the SDSF suffered heavy casualties that brought about morale problems, characterized by heavy desertions, and created recruitment difficulties. In addition, this clear- cut collaboration with Ethiopia has harmed the SDSP's cause among potential supporters within Somalia. The SDSF continues to stage guerrilla attacks against Somali civilian and military targets while maintaining more conventional positions within Ethiopian lines along the border area. The effectiveness of those attacks was demonstrated on 16 July and 5 September 1983, when the SDSF attacked two Somali battalions positions, inflicting very heavy casualties and taking or destroying much of those units' equipment. In an attempt to broaden its base and preserve its position as the primary anti-Siad organization, the SDSF has been seeking, with some success, a more formal alliance with the Somali National Movement(SNM). The SDSF will continue to pose a significant insurgent problem to Somalia in the border region, but due to both internal and external tribal strains its ability to threaten the Siad regime will be limited. "



This is from the CIA's military intelligence summary from 1984.
https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/FOIA-Reading-Room-Africa/FileId/178704/

 

[towerheist]

War let the man rest in piece. He will answer for his crimes to the almighty he is beyond our reach. Its been 30 years and still you are accusing him for the downhill of our country when in fact it was and still is the rebels with no vision and the Ethiopian bootyclappers that we have as warlords. May they all burn in hell.

 

[embarassing]

By reading the CIA reports from that time, the main external conflict/adversary of the Ethiopian regime was the Somali Gov headed by him. They concocted a plan to overthrow him by arming various factions within the country to cause instability (the oldest trick in the book) It's happened in Syria and Libya as well where foreign actors arm certain groups within a country to cause regime change.
The first such group armed, sheltered and trained by the Ethiopian Gov was the SSDF led by A.y. He tried a coup and failed miserably which caused his supporters to face the consequences of such actions. There was also a distinct uprising in the north supported and armed by ethiopia, the SNM faction. They started to attack Gov outposts and thus also had to face consequences for those actions. However as more groups were beginning to take actions into their hands the gov eventually collapsed which was the single greatest geopolitical feat by the Ethiopian regime. In that time frame their main military rival and economic rival ceased to exist. Fast forward to 2006, that same man A.Yusuf brought his old Ethiopian friends on Somali soil to bombard innocent somali civilians and brought about this AMISOM contingent precedent where foreign troops have boots on the ground in Somalia.

There's an article on this written by an Ethiopian professor who gained access to the Ethiopian foreign ministries archives.

Ethiopian foreign policy and the Ogaden War: the shift from “containment” to “destabilization,” 1977–1991

"...Thus, just as the Derg’s external strength grew and its internal politics toughened up so too did its response to the Somali threat. As a consequence, by 1977, the Derg adopted policies aimed at the total destabilization of the Republic, thereby implementing the strategy that the imperial regime had held only as a “last resort” policy. After 1977, even when engaged in peace talks and attempts at reconciliation, Mengistu’s Ethiopia saw safety only in the total disintegration of Somalia."

"...Ethiopia’s efforts to incite strife in Somalia using disgruntled groups can be traced back to the imperial era. Many of the past mutinies, election-related violence, and coups d’état in Somalia had occurred with the blessing of Ethiopian authorities. The December 1961 mutiny is one example, when Ethiopia complicity was suspected in an attempt by Somali army officers from the north to seize key towns and bring about secession. Ethiopia’s Foreign Ministry archives also reveal Ethiopia’s role in the scheme to convince Hargeisa politicians to reject the union formula with the south, in the establishment in 1966 of the North Somalia Liberation Movement (NSLM) and the creation of the South Somalia Refugees Association (SSRA) – the NSLM consisting of marginalized sections of the Isaaq clan in the north, while the SSRA mobilized disgruntled Hawiye and Rahanweyn clan members in the south.

The political turmoil experienced in Somalia following defeat in the Ogaden created opportunities for Ethiopia’s policy of destabilization to be implemented with good effect. The April 1978 attempted coup in Mogadishu, and the state of emergency declared in October 1980, best demonstrated these political tensions in the Republic in the postwar period. The repressive measures Siad Barre’s government now launched against, first, the Majerteen and Isaaq, and later (in the early 1980s) the Hawiye, led to popular discontent that Ethiopia was able to exploit.

Ethiopia’s support for anti-Siad Barre elements strengthened after the mid-1980s. A joint Ethio–South Yemen attempt to create a united front among the Somalia Salvation Front (SSF), Somalia Communist Party (Somalia Democratic Liberation Front), and Somalia Workers Party represented an important step in this campaign. The establishment of the SNM in London in March 1981 had been especially significant in building an opposition network. Ethiopia made every effort to bring the opposition together and to synchronize their struggle against the regime of Siad Barre. The list of those influenced by Ethiopia included opposition groups based in London, New Delhi, Moscow, Bucharest, West Germany, Rome, and Aden.

The contact with SNM was given special attention. Irrespective of the objectives of the SNM constitution, which claimed “to promote the unity of all Somalis and protect the integrity and sovereignty of the Somalia Republic” and “to support the right of all peoples to self determination and political freedom and independence,” the Ethiopian authorities joined the SNM leadership in joint initiatives against Siad Barre. By June 1983, the movement was firmly established in Ethiopia, with freedom of movement for its political and military leaders as well as closer cooperation with similar opposition parties like SSDF. Col. Abdullahi Yusuf, the commander of the section of Somalia’s army that defected to Ethiopia following the abortive coup in Mogadishu in April 1978, was appointed the military head of the SSDF. So successful was this policy of destabilization that by the late 1980s, Ethiopian officials seem to have concluded that no useful purpose could be gained from any peace talks with Siad Barre. Elsewhere, too, this policy was advanced, with external support being given to opposition movements in Sudan. As the Derg came under greater pressure in its domestic policies, it turned increasingly toward an aggressive foreign policy. But support for external groups in Somalia was always intended only to weaken Barre and not to create a viable political alternative."

http://samaynta.com/index.php/2017/...ut-ethiopian-policy-of-destabilizing-somalia/

 

[embarassing]

balderdash, far away from reality. people will go where eva they get help from once their livelyhood,towns and water wells destroyed. when random arrests and killings by the 1000s carried out againest thm cos of qabiil.
your argument that some started revolt againest Barre solely ethiopia wanted and therefore their lackeys is just hogwash spiting in the face of those who resisted a rotten system. your fallacy is unbelievable and certainly wont sow any positivity today,infact such statements will neva bring any closeness among somalis rather further ignite old wounds. Enlighten up

We should be able to acknowledge both realities. It's true, Ethiopias sole goal was to disintegrate Somalia by supporting rebel groups this doesn't mean the reaction to it was correct or that innocent people weren't killed.

 

[roble]

This isn't to 'ignite old wounds' but to educate individuals that are unaware of the geopolitical climate as well as some more the destabilizing forces at that time. To clear some things up for you, firstly there were no targeting of any civilians or towns before rebel groups with aid from Ethiopia attempted to overthrow the government and hid among civilian population. They joined forces due to a common interest, to oust the current leader at that time. The reasoning behind this is that those rebel leaders wanted power for themselves and the people they enlisted for help were in most cases their clansmen. Ethiopia wanted stooges at the helm of the government and knew the leader at the time was looking only after the interest of Somalia, they used and discarded these factions after they received their intended goal of toppling the government and fast forward 30 years and ethiopian boots are on the ground in the country that is an undeniable fact. Obviously there are going to be detractors of any great figure, but in the case of Somalis their resentment is tribally based, which is fine with me but don't act as if your critique is objective. What would any effective government do when there are rebels attacking government forces? The answer is obvious.
But if you don't believe me how about an objective analysis from the CIA?

"Ethiopia is interested in the overthrow of President Siad's regime, replacement with a weaker government more favorable to its position on the Ogaden issue, and a government that would remove US facilities from the country. Ethiopian support of two major Somali dissident groups, the Somali Democratic Salvation Front (SDSF) and the Somali National Movement (SNM) are the primary vehicles through which Ethiopia is attempting to accomplish its objectives. Somalia is, however, as much at fault in this relationship as is Ethiopia. Since the early 1960s, Somalia has intermittently supported and directed insurgency in the Ogaden region of Ethiopia as part of an effort to unite under one flag all ethnic Somalis many of whom live in or migrate into the Ogaden for pastorage. "

"In the latter half of 1981, SDSF units began to stage raids against Somali border towns. In June 1982, the SDSF escalated its operations by joining regular Ethiopian units in incursions along the disputed border. In the course of these attacks, the SDSF suffered heavy casualties that brought about morale problems, characterized by heavy desertions, and created recruitment difficulties. In addition, this clear- cut collaboration with Ethiopia has harmed the SDSP's cause among potential supporters within Somalia. The SDSF continues to stage guerrilla attacks against Somali civilian and military targets while maintaining more conventional positions within Ethiopian lines along the border area. The effectiveness of those attacks was demonstrated on 16 July and 5 September 1983, when the SDSF attacked two Somali battalions positions, inflicting very heavy casualties and taking or destroying much of those units' equipment. In an attempt to broaden its base and preserve its position as the primary anti-Siad organization, the SDSF has been seeking, with some success, a more formal alliance with the Somali National Movement(SNM). The SDSF will continue to pose a significant insurgent problem to Somalia in the border region, but due to both internal and external tribal strains its ability to threaten the Siad regime will be limited. "



This is from the CIA's military intelligence summary from 1984.
https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/FOIA-Reading-Room-Africa/FileId/178704/

actually i left half way reading thru your absurdity. the parts you picked from the CIA
is nothing short of cherry picking,theres far worse stuff there being said about Barre.Once again ethiopia had nothing to do with the creation of these movements.thats truth 101.
Later on when he destroyed puntland and somaliland then people took refuge in ethiopia and ask for their help. what otha opportunity was open to thm? that somali govt was the worst dictatorship and most cruel the somali populace had eva went thru in their entire known existance,even european powers were not that evil handed.
Upto you whateva you believe but those regions and more not buying and thats why they left not interested in rewritten history.

 

[Dues Ex Machina]

There's an article on this written by an Ethiopian professor who gained access to the Ethiopian foreign ministries archives.

Ethiopian foreign policy and the Ogaden War: the shift from “containment” to “destabilization,” 1977–1991

"...Thus, just as the Derg’s external strength grew and its internal politics toughened up so too did its response to the Somali threat. As a consequence, by 1977, the Derg adopted policies aimed at the total destabilization of the Republic, thereby implementing the strategy that the imperial regime had held only as a “last resort” policy. After 1977, even when engaged in peace talks and attempts at reconciliation, Mengistu’s Ethiopia saw safety only in the total disintegration of Somalia."

"...Ethiopia’s efforts to incite strife in Somalia using disgruntled groups can be traced back to the imperial era. Many of the past mutinies, election-related violence, and coups d’état in Somalia had occurred with the blessing of Ethiopian authorities. The December 1961 mutiny is one example, when Ethiopia complicity was suspected in an attempt by Somali army officers from the north to seize key towns and bring about secession. Ethiopia’s Foreign Ministry archives also reveal Ethiopia’s role in the scheme to convince Hargeisa politicians to reject the union formula with the south, in the establishment in 1966 of the North Somalia Liberation Movement (NSLM) and the creation of the South Somalia Refugees Association (SSRA) – the NSLM consisting of marginalized sections of the Isaaq clan in the north, while the SSRA mobilized disgruntled Hawiye and Rahanweyn clan members in the south.

The political turmoil experienced in Somalia following defeat in the Ogaden created opportunities for Ethiopia’s policy of destabilization to be implemented with good effect. The April 1978 attempted coup in Mogadishu, and the state of emergency declared in October 1980, best demonstrated these political tensions in the Republic in the postwar period. The repressive measures Siad Barre’s government now launched against, first, the Majerteen and Isaaq, and later (in the early 1980s) the Hawiye, led to popular discontent that Ethiopia was able to exploit.

Ethiopia’s support for anti-Siad Barre elements strengthened after the mid-1980s. A joint Ethio–South Yemen attempt to create a united front among the Somalia Salvation Front (SSF), Somalia Communist Party (Somalia Democratic Liberation Front), and Somalia Workers Party represented an important step in this campaign. The establishment of the SNM in London in March 1981 had been especially significant in building an opposition network. Ethiopia made every effort to bring the opposition together and to synchronize their struggle against the regime of Siad Barre. The list of those influenced by Ethiopia included opposition groups based in London, New Delhi, Moscow, Bucharest, West Germany, Rome, and Aden.

The contact with SNM was given special attention. Irrespective of the objectives of the SNM constitution, which claimed “to promote the unity of all Somalis and protect the integrity and sovereignty of the Somalia Republic” and “to support the right of all peoples to self determination and political freedom and independence,” the Ethiopian authorities joined the SNM leadership in joint initiatives against Siad Barre. By June 1983, the movement was firmly established in Ethiopia, with freedom of movement for its political and military leaders as well as closer cooperation with similar opposition parties like SSDF. Col. Abdullahi Yusuf, the commander of the section of Somalia’s army that defected to Ethiopia following the abortive coup in Mogadishu in April 1978, was appointed the military head of the SSDF. So successful was this policy of destabilization that by the late 1980s, Ethiopian officials seem to have concluded that no useful purpose could be gained from any peace talks with Siad Barre. Elsewhere, too, this policy was advanced, with external support being given to opposition movements in Sudan. As the Derg came under greater pressure in its domestic policies, it turned increasingly toward an aggressive foreign policy. But support for external groups in Somalia was always intended only to weaken Barre and not to create a viable political alternative."

http://samaynta.com/index.php/2017/...ut-ethiopian-policy-of-destabilizing-somalia/

Quite informative and really telling of the obvious weaknesses within the Somali society where external groups are able hold sway so easily. You can see it in the political climate of today where our new geopolitical adversaries, i.e. Kenya, UAE are able to direct different maamul gobaleeds to be in opposition to the Federal Government. And instead of funding rebel groups, they fund terror cells to cause instability. It's the same old trick, different players.

 

[roble]

We should be able to acknowledge both realities. It's true, Ethiopias sole goal was to disintegrate Somalia by supporting rebel groups this doesn't mean the reaction to it was correct or that innocent people weren't killed.

ethiopia had nothing to do with the creation of these movements, it was brought about by the great injustices at the home front.

 

[roble]

ethiopia had nothing to do with the creation of these movements, it was brought about by the great injustices at the home front.

There's an article on this written by an Ethiopian professor who gained access to the Ethiopian foreign ministries archives.

Ethiopian foreign policy and the Ogaden War: the shift from “containment” to “destabilization,” 1977–1991

"...Thus, just as the Derg’s external strength grew and its internal politics toughened up so too did its response to the Somali threat. As a consequence, by 1977, the Derg adopted policies aimed at the total destabilization of the Republic, thereby implementing the strategy that the imperial regime had held only as a “last resort” policy. After 1977, even when engaged in peace talks and attempts at reconciliation, Mengistu’s Ethiopia saw safety only in the total disintegration of Somalia."

"...Ethiopia’s efforts to incite strife in Somalia using disgruntled groups can be traced back to the imperial era. Many of the past mutinies, election-related violence, and coups d’état in Somalia had occurred with the blessing of Ethiopian authorities. The December 1961 mutiny is one example, when Ethiopia complicity was suspected in an attempt by Somali army officers from the north to seize key towns and bring about secession. Ethiopia’s Foreign Ministry archives also reveal Ethiopia’s role in the scheme to convince Hargeisa politicians to reject the union formula with the south, in the establishment in 1966 of the North Somalia Liberation Movement (NSLM) and the creation of the South Somalia Refugees Association (SSRA) – the NSLM consisting of marginalized sections of the Isaaq clan in the north, while the SSRA mobilized disgruntled Hawiye and Rahanweyn clan members in the south.

The political turmoil experienced in Somalia following defeat in the Ogaden created opportunities for Ethiopia’s policy of destabilization to be implemented with good effect. The April 1978 attempted coup in Mogadishu, and the state of emergency declared in October 1980, best demonstrated these political tensions in the Republic in the postwar period. The repressive measures Siad Barre’s government now launched against, first, the Majerteen and Isaaq, and later (in the early 1980s) the Hawiye, led to popular discontent that Ethiopia was able to exploit.

Ethiopia’s support for anti-Siad Barre elements strengthened after the mid-1980s. A joint Ethio–South Yemen attempt to create a united front among the Somalia Salvation Front (SSF), Somalia Communist Party (Somalia Democratic Liberation Front), and Somalia Workers Party represented an important step in this campaign. The establishment of the SNM in London in March 1981 had been especially significant in building an opposition network. Ethiopia made every effort to bring the opposition together and to synchronize their struggle against the regime of Siad Barre. The list of those influenced by Ethiopia included opposition groups based in London, New Delhi, Moscow, Bucharest, West Germany, Rome, and Aden.

The contact with SNM was given special attention. Irrespective of the objectives of the SNM constitution, which claimed “to promote the unity of all Somalis and protect the integrity and sovereignty of the Somalia Republic” and “to support the right of all peoples to self determination and political freedom and independence,” the Ethiopian authorities joined the SNM leadership in joint initiatives against Siad Barre. By June 1983, the movement was firmly established in Ethiopia, with freedom of movement for its political and military leaders as well as closer cooperation with similar opposition parties like SSDF. Col. Abdullahi Yusuf, the commander of the section of Somalia’s army that defected to Ethiopia following the abortive coup in Mogadishu in April 1978, was appointed the military head of the SSDF. So successful was this policy of destabilization that by the late 1980s, Ethiopian officials seem to have concluded that no useful purpose could be gained from any peace talks with Siad Barre. Elsewhere, too, this policy was advanced, with external support being given to opposition movements in Sudan. As the Derg came under greater pressure in its domestic policies, it turned increasingly toward an aggressive foreign policy. But support for external groups in Somalia was always intended only to weaken Barre and not to create a viable political alternative."

http://samaynta.com/index.php/2017/...ut-ethiopian-policy-of-destabilizing-somalia/

the somali movements went to ethiopia and asked for help, and again ethiopia neither created nor called thm. ofc ethiopia took advantage of it which was ok with those movements fighting siyad Barre. same way somalia was helping eriteria,tigray etc.
who is the enemy when you get destroyed by your govt cos u resisted their inhumane practices.they even enlisted in the army the west somali refugees and turn thm againest their hosts.
That hollow nationalist card isnt playing well with anyone. Am not surprised but its ova.

 

[Dues Ex Machina]

actually i left half way reading thru your absurdity. the parts you picked from the CIA
is nothing short of cherry picking,theres far worse stuff there being said about Barre.Once again ethiopia had nothing to do with the creation of these movements.thats truth 101.
Later on when he destroyed puntland and somaliland then people took refuge in ethiopia and ask for their help. what otha opportunity was open to thm? that somali govt was the worst dictatorship and most cruel the somali populace had eva went thru in their entire known existance,even european powers were not that evil handed.
Upto you whateva you believe but those regions and more not buying and thats why they left not interested in rewritten history.

I only provide the facts, it's up to each individual whether they wish to take it into account or not. However I won't allow people who have no knowledge or understanding of that period to slander the greatest Somali leader. Having said that, it was definitely a different era AUN to Siyad and all of the great leaders in Somali history.

Midnimada waa awood iyo nabad, tafaraaruqa waa colaad iyo gaajo.

 

[roble]

I only provide the facts, it's up to each individual whether they wish to take it into account or not. However I won't allow people who have no knowledge or understanding of that period to slander the greatest Somali leader. Having said that, it was definitely a different era AUN to Siyad and all of the great leaders in Somali history.

Midnimada waa awood iyo nabad, tafaraaruqa waa colaad iyo gaajo.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

We failed hard when we left Egypt kkkk we had a great life over there when we left we became illiterate nomads

We've been cursed as soon as we left the blessed land of Egypt by going south of the Sahara & mixed with those savage SSA/Nilotes...and proceeded to become illiterate nomads.

 

[towerheist]

the somali movements went to ethiopia and asked for help, and again ethiopia neither created nor called thm. ofc ethiopia took advantage of it which was ok with those movements fighting siyad Barre. same way somalia was helping eriteria,tigray etc.
who is the enemy when you get destroyed by your govt cos u resisted their inhumane practices.they even enlisted in the army the west somali refugees and turn thm againest their hosts.
That hollow nationalist card isnt playing well with anyone. Am not surprised but its ova.

The only problem ppl have with rebels with a cause is their lack of foresight. No one planned ahead and how to govern the country and ofc we cant deny the fact the MSB wanted the rebels to fight amongst themselfes, hence he let them loot the SNAs stock piles. This was done out of hatred he thought that the rebels would weaken eachother so he could take country back into his caring hands in few years. All in all rebels and MSB burned our country I would argue that the rebels did more harm.

 

[Mehmet]

Somalis don't like anything good despite his qabil I see alot Somalis that talk down on him because of qabil but I tell them we never had a good leader as close to him

And never will as we are the laughing stock of the world these days

 

[roble]

The only problem ppl have with rebels with a cause is their lack of foresight. No one planned ahead and how to govern the country and ofc we cant deny the fact the MSB wanted the rebels to fight amongst theselfes hence he let them loot the SNAs stock piles. This was done out of hatred he thought that the rebels would weaken eachother so he could take country back into his caring hands in few years. All in all rebels and MSB burned our country I would argue that the rebels did more harm.

True specially rebels in mogadishu with that vicious civil war among thmslvs further pushed the whole situation down the drain.

 

[Mehmet]

We need a king.

One who is not a zionist

 

[towerheist]

True specially rebels in mogadishu with that vicious civil war among thmslvs further pushed the whole situation down the drain.

All rebels abow, no need to point fingers. All danced in our enemies tune right into a trap of misery.

 

[roble]

All rebels abow, no need to point fingers. All danced in our enemies tune right into a trap of misery.

mean no harm but that civil war in mogadishu changed the whole equation. let me give you an example, ali mahdi declared himself president without even bothering to call or notifying the SNM which actually was the most potent controlling the whole north,they just heard it on BBC, soon after aideed did same..the nxt day SNM called for urgent meeting of its leaders at Burao and while they were in discussion was surrounded by angry SNM army and large part of the population and gave thm ultimatum to break away or else. They felt its the continuation of the same status quo that Mogadishu usurped power again like 1960 and were left to fight anotha costly battle and made their sacrifice obsolete.

 

[Crow]

The only problem ppl have with rebels with a cause is their lack of foresight. No one planned ahead and how to govern the country

This isn't true. Everyone was ready to form a representative transitional government in 1991. That is, everyone except the USC.

 

[Mighty]

We've been cursed as soon as we left the blessed land of Egypt by going south of the Sahara & mixed with those savage SSA/Nilotes...and proceeded to become illiterate nomads.

Without those "savages" you wouldn't exist.

 

[bluebird]

The only thing he’s really better than your typical fgs president today is that he had control and could maintain it for years. Other than that, he oppressed people, promoted unislamic communist ideas, and didnt really do anything in his 2 decades to industrialize or promote a healthy econ for a country just getting out of a largely primitive lifestyle.

He just left intact whatever the Italians built and the country never really grew from there. That’s why we are like the only country in the world that doesn’t have any real “skyline”