Origin Of Haplogroup T Found

There is a big chance it was a Fertile Crescent type Y-DNA. LN/CA/BA, somewhere west-central, north of Arabia.

It makes sense if we strictly go from these simplified assumptions, working ourselves from down the tree of other clades upward:

T-Y28692 seems like a European Jewish lineage with several assimilates.

Moving upstream, we encounter the Yemeni subclade, T-FTC43481 under T-Y28685 (common parent to the aforementioned European Jewish lineage). Now, there is a mistake in thinking the Jewish European sub goes to Yemen (in terms of geographic origin). Instead, there is a common ancestor, T-Y10641, that contains a diversity of various Arabian (incl. Yemen) haplogroups, listing a European Jewish signature, Egyptian, Iraqi, and Turkey as well. Factoring in the diversified base of T-Y10641, rationally we can assume this is an out-stream point of both T-Y28685 and its under-relations (European Jewish and Yemeni) in an impressively coherent manner, meaning geographic derivative variable. Now the thing with T-Y10641 is it is not the major sub-tree. Above it, there is, T-Y18956, which entails Sardinian (Italian) sibling lineage that has a common parent with T-Y10641 at T-Y18956, then this lineage shares a mutational progenitor with a Scottish individual (T-Z19971*) at T-Z19971. This last one formed at the time of T-Y16897 TMCRA, the parent clade of all.

Already accounting for a sensible heuristic with the constraints, we can infer a geographic spread point somewhere in the Fertile Crescent. What strengthens this further is the rest of the clades on the Y-Full. Namely the Arabian-Somali sibling lineage, T-Y45591, that automatically necessitates an overall geographic picture of centralized migrational accessibility to Arabia, plus, East, West, and North - as we observe the results of.

Then to see the strength of this, one notices that this observation is an apt characterization of the other broader branches within T-L208 showing the same broader tendencies, revealing how all the facts align. Haplogroup T-Z19971 is from somewhere in west-central Fertile Crescent similar to T-L208, but interestingly it seems that it formed in the same broader area until the rest spread from there. The same can be said about T-Y45591, where the overwhelming Somali T haplogroup belongs, but the genesis of TMRCA temporally in 2800 ybp was in Arabia.

This means T-L208 and T-Y16897 had to be somewhere central that could spread into northern Africa, Anatolia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia. The only place for that is to emphasize west-central Fertile Crescent.

The majority of that has to be in Syria.

I conclude my position on this from now on, that where Somali haplogroup T came from before it was in its Arabian context, was Syria. I don't think it has anything to do with Zagros or deep into Mesopotamia (they also got it from the Syrian area, not talking about anything upstream from T-L208). That hypothesis makes absolutely no sense from the evidence we're seeing according to the distributional nature of the clades.

From a time-perspective picture, you had the Neolithic Farmer context in the northern Levant. Then you had the formation of the Arabian-Somali parental clade during the Neolithic-Chalcolithic transition (technically early Copper Age, but some places transitioned earlier) probably in that very same region. When they, exactly, migrated into Arabia is not easy to say between 6800 to 2800 years BP, but it is a big possibility that a considerable part of those 4000 years between was spent in the Syrian region.

Haplogroup T1a1a was found in those Bronze Age Ebla folks, and you had it in Chalcolithic Levant and T1 in PPNB. This is an open and shut case. No more is this a mystery.

The Somali T comes from serious Semitic stock probably related to Eblaite peoples or one of those influential groups in the Syrian region, regardless, essentially a native lineage of that region since the Neolithic and Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. Then they lived in Arabia between 800 to a couple of thousand years (because not sure when T-Y45591 migrated to the Arabian Peninsula between 6800-2800 years BP (guessing 1000-2000 years, maybe due to later so-called BA Collapse?)), and then they came to the promising northern Somali shores some 2000 years ago.

Interesting. I have my own theory that the Somalis descend from ancient North-West Semitic Levantines populations that were devastated by the Bronze Age Collapse or like Kassites in Babylonia. Another pet theory is that the haplogroup is associated with Philistines destroyed by the Assyrians roughly 2800 years ago.

The funniest theory I’ve heard was that Somali T-carriers descend from Thamud :ftw9nwa:
 

NidarNidar

♚Sargon of Adal♚
VIP
From a general outlook, on how widely spread T-L208 is around the world, I always assumed they were either nomadic herders, traders or religious figures, but from what I can tell the Somali T was just super successful, it was probably brought by several related men, maybe a clan.

The origin point was always the fertile crescent, T is often associated with pre-pottery neolithic b culture.
 

NidarNidar

♚Sargon of Adal♚
VIP
There is a big chance it was a Fertile Crescent type Y-DNA. LN/CA/BA, somewhere west-central, north of Arabia.

It makes sense if we strictly go from these simplified assumptions, working ourselves from down the tree of other clades upward:

T-Y28692 seems like a European Jewish lineage with several assimilates.

Moving upstream, we encounter the Yemeni subclade, T-FTC43481 under T-Y28685 (common parent to the aforementioned European Jewish lineage). Now, there is a mistake in thinking the Jewish European sub goes to Yemen (in terms of geographic origin). Instead, there is a common ancestor, T-Y10641, that contains a diversity of various Arabian (incl. Yemen) haplogroups, listing a European Jewish signature, Egyptian, Iraqi, and Turkey as well. Factoring in the diversified base of T-Y10641, rationally we can assume this is an out-stream point of both T-Y28685 and its under-relations (European Jewish and Yemeni) in an impressively coherent manner, meaning geographic derivative variable. Now the thing with T-Y10641 is it is not the major sub-tree. Above it, there is, T-Y18956, which entails Sardinian (Italian) sibling lineage that has a common parent with T-Y10641 at T-Y18956, then this lineage shares a mutational progenitor with a Scottish individual (T-Z19971*) at T-Z19971. This last one formed at the time of T-Y16897 TMCRA, the parent clade of all.

Already accounting for a sensible heuristic with the constraints, we can infer a geographic spread point somewhere in the Fertile Crescent. What strengthens this further is the rest of the clades on the Y-Full. Namely the Arabian-Somali sibling lineage, T-Y45591, that automatically necessitates an overall geographic picture of centralized migrational accessibility to Arabia, plus, East, West, and North - as we observe the results of.

Then to see the strength of this, one notices that this observation is an apt characterization of the other broader branches within T-L208 showing the same broader tendencies, revealing how all the facts align. Haplogroup T-Z19971 is from somewhere in west-central Fertile Crescent similar to T-L208, but interestingly it seems that it formed in the same broader area until the rest spread from there. The same can be said about T-Y45591, where the overwhelming Somali T haplogroup belongs, but the genesis of TMRCA temporally in 2800 ybp was in Arabia.

This means T-L208 and T-Y16897 had to be somewhere central that could spread into northern Africa, Anatolia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia. The only place for that is to emphasize west-central Fertile Crescent.

The majority of that has to be in Syria.

I conclude my position on this from now on, that where Somali haplogroup T came from before it was in its Arabian context, was Syria. I don't think it has anything to do with Zagros or deep into Mesopotamia (they also got it from the Syrian area, not talking about anything upstream from T-L208). That hypothesis makes absolutely no sense from the evidence we're seeing according to the distributional nature of the clades.

From a time-perspective picture, you had the Neolithic Farmer context in the northern Levant. Then you had the formation of the Arabian-Somali parental clade during the Neolithic-Chalcolithic transition (technically early Copper Age, but some places transitioned earlier) probably in that very same region. When they, exactly, migrated into Arabia is not easy to say between 6800 to 2800 years BP, but it is a big possibility that a considerable part of those 4000 years between was spent in the Syrian region.

Haplogroup T1a1a was found in those Bronze Age Ebla folks, and you had it in Chalcolithic Levant and T1 in PPNB. This is an open and shut case. No more is this a mystery.

The Somali T comes from serious Semitic stock probably related to Eblaite peoples or one of those influential groups in the Syrian region, regardless, essentially a native lineage of that region since the Neolithic and Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. Then they lived in Arabia between 800 to a couple of thousand years (because not sure when T-Y45591 migrated to the Arabian Peninsula between 6800-2800 years BP (guessing 1000-2000 years, maybe due to later so-called BA Collapse?)), and then they came to the promising northern Somali shores some 2000 years ago.
"It helps explain the provenance of the paternal haplogroup T, which occurs at frequencies as high as 80% among Somalis. This clade is also found among more southerly Cushitic speakers, Siwa Berbers, and Tuareg Berbers, the latter of whom show especially close phenotypic ties with Somalis (see discussion below). In the archaeogenetic record, this lineage has been observed in a Pre-Pottery Neolithic B specimen excavated in the Levant (cf. Lazaridis et al. (2016), Table S6.1). Since the PPN makers are distinguished from their Mesolithic Natufian ancestors by the elevated Anatolian Neolithic admixture they bear, this suggests that the newcomers who brought the T clade to the Levant also introduced Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. Additionally, the T lineage has been detected among persons buried at Kelif el-Boroud, a late Neolithic site in Morocco. One of these ancient individuals was matched to the T-L208 (T1a1a) clade, which is ancestral to the T-Y45591 subhaplogroup that is most common among Somalis (cf. Fregel et al. (2018); YFull). According to Fregel et al. (2018), “although scarce and broadly distributed today, this haplogroup has also been observed in European Neolithic individuals” (e.g. in the Linear Pottery culture or Linearbandkeramik; see Mathieson et al. (2015)). The scientists further indicate that the Kelif el-Boroud people are largely characterized by the Anatolian Neolithic component. A southward diffusion of haplogroup T from North Africa into the Horn region is likewise supported by Sirak et al. (2021), who observed examples of both the LT parent clade and some T subclades (viz. T-L208 and T-Y31477) among Christian-era Nubian samples interred at the Kulubnarti site in Sudan (cf. Supplementary Figure 6). We have good reason to believe that LT has been in the Nile Valley for a long time since, besides its T derivative, the haplogroup L descendant lineage has also been found among ancient local specimens; Gad et al. (2020a) announced that an unidentified 18th Dynasty Egyptian royal carried the L clade. Moreover, Harney et al. (2018) report that their Chalcolithic period samples from Peqi’in Cave in Israel, which bore significant Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry, belonged to the paternal haplogroup T. Wang et al. (2020) (discussed below) indicate that this Chalcolithic Levant sample is the best-fitting proxy for the distal source of the West Eurasian ancestry which defines the ancient Cushites of the Pastoral Neolithic."

source:
 
"It helps explain the provenance of the paternal haplogroup T, which occurs at frequencies as high as 80% among Somalis. This clade is also found among more southerly Cushitic speakers, Siwa Berbers, and Tuareg Berbers, the latter of whom show especially close phenotypic ties with Somalis (see discussion below). In the archaeogenetic record, this lineage has been observed in a Pre-Pottery Neolithic B specimen excavated in the Levant (cf. Lazaridis et al. (2016), Table S6.1). Since the PPN makers are distinguished from their Mesolithic Natufian ancestors by the elevated Anatolian Neolithic admixture they bear, this suggests that the newcomers who brought the T clade to the Levant also introduced Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. Additionally, the T lineage has been detected among persons buried at Kelif el-Boroud, a late Neolithic site in Morocco. One of these ancient individuals was matched to the T-L208 (T1a1a) clade, which is ancestral to the T-Y45591 subhaplogroup that is most common among Somalis (cf. Fregel et al. (2018); YFull). According to Fregel et al. (2018), “although scarce and broadly distributed today, this haplogroup has also been observed in European Neolithic individuals” (e.g. in the Linear Pottery culture or Linearbandkeramik; see Mathieson et al. (2015)). The scientists further indicate that the Kelif el-Boroud people are largely characterized by the Anatolian Neolithic component. A southward diffusion of haplogroup T from North Africa into the Horn region is likewise supported by Sirak et al. (2021), who observed examples of both the LT parent clade and some T subclades (viz. T-L208 and T-Y31477) among Christian-era Nubian samples interred at the Kulubnarti site in Sudan (cf. Supplementary Figure 6). We have good reason to believe that LT has been in the Nile Valley for a long time since, besides its T derivative, the haplogroup L descendant lineage has also been found among ancient local specimens; Gad et al. (2020a) announced that an unidentified 18th Dynasty Egyptian royal carried the L clade. Moreover, Harney et al. (2018) report that their Chalcolithic period samples from Peqi’in Cave in Israel, which bore significant Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry, belonged to the paternal haplogroup T. Wang et al. (2020) (discussed below) indicate that this Chalcolithic Levant sample is the best-fitting proxy for the distal source of the West Eurasian ancestry which defines the ancient Cushites of the Pastoral Neolithic."

source:
80%? Since when? I thought it was closer to around 10%?
 

NidarNidar

♚Sargon of Adal♚
VIP
What? wtf happened the T haplogroup progenitors in the middle east?
It most likely travelled down via the Sinai, since J1 and T travelled together, until we get more tests done in NEA we won't know what route it travelled across the Red Sea or via the Sinai, I could be wrong so take my words with a grain of salt, still learning.
 
It most likely travelled down via the Sinai, since J1 and T travelled together, until we get more tests done in NEA we won't know what route it travelled across the Red Sea or via the Sinai, I could be wrong so take my words with a grain of salt, still learning.
There's so many theories. I can't count the amount of times I've heard of people saying it travelled south from Iraq/Iran, through Yemen and made its way to Somalia. The thing that never made sense to me was how the J migration from Yemen to Ethiopia never managed to take a foothold in Northern Somalia like Jabuuti while T migration through the same route did, if you believe in T migration being through Yemen?
 

NidarNidar

♚Sargon of Adal♚
VIP
There's so many theories. I can't count the amount of times I've heard of people saying it travelled south from Iraq/Iran, through Yemen and made its way to Somalia. The thing that never made sense to me was how the J migration from Yemen to Ethiopia never managed to take a foothold in Northern Somalia like Jabuuti while T migration through the same route did, if you believe in T migration being through Yemen?
This leads me to believe T went through the Sinai since it's also found as far as Tanzania with southern Cushites, without more people taking the big Y it simply shows up as T-L208.

It's found primarily in Upper Egpyt and some parts of Sudan and is so spread out in the rest of the world, but was super successful in North Somalia since most DIR are 100% T.
 
This leads me to believe T went through the Sinai since it's also found as far as Tanzania with southern Cushites, without more people taking the big Y it simply shows up as T-L208.

It's found primarily in Upper Egpyt and some parts of Sudan and is so spread out in the rest of the world, but was super successful in North Somalia since most DIR are 100% T.

You’re getting confused. The Somali subclade of T-L208 is T-Y45591. It has not been found anywhere outside of Somalia (particularly Djibouti and Somaliland) except in the Arabian peninsula. The other Ts found in Egypt or Sudan etc. belong to different subclades. The Somali version is 2800 years old and the nearest relatives all live in Saudi Arabia.
 

NidarNidar

♚Sargon of Adal♚
VIP
You’re getting confused. The Somali subclade of T-L208 is T-Y45591. It has not been found anywhere outside of Somalia (particularly Djibouti and Somaliland) except in the Arabian peninsula. The other Ts found in Egypt or Sudan etc. belong to different subclades. The Somali version is 2800 years old and the nearest relatives all live in Saudi Arabia.
Until more people do Big Y-700 for now it's the closest, I wasn't stating they were the same just pointing out T can also be found in those regions.
 

Northern Swordsman

Tawxiid Alle lahaw, Talo na Alle saaro.
There's so many theories. I can't count the amount of times I've heard of people saying it travelled south from Iraq/Iran, through Yemen and made its way to Somalia. The thing that never made sense to me was how the J migration from Yemen to Ethiopia never managed to take a foothold in Northern Somalia like Jabuuti while T migration through the same route did, if you believe in T migration being through Yemen?
The correct t migration for the somali T-Y45591 is via Levant > Arab peninsula > Yemen > Northern Somalia (highly concentrated in the region)

Fun fact there is another T in the horn and it's in Eritrea (Sahos) but they are from a whole different branch and their migration was Levant > Sinai > Egypt > Sudan > Eritrea

Not related with the somali one at all, besides upstream like thousand yrs difference.
 
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