patriarchal society makes men lazy and fall behind in education

[Cartan Boos]

The reason why women pursue STEM degrees in
”patriarchal societies” (cmon Iran, the safe haven of mutah) is due to economic reasons. Very smart of them.

Look at the west today. More women are going to university than men but what degrees are they studying? Bullshit degrees, mainly social studies. Unless you are extremely gifted person in those fields, you will not earn well.

There are fewer female than male STEM graduates in 107 of 114 economies

In 107 of 114 economies, there are fewer female than male STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) graduates.

blogs.worldbank.org

North African countries top the list, something is very wrong there. Ragga are slacking hugely.

11 out of 20 are Muslim countries, that tells you something

 

[El Nino]

Most Somali men aren’t even stem especially the 28+ crowd. Men mostly working in STEM compared to women doesn’t mean that they are especially when most STEM courses require uni attendance and men’s attendance is actually lower than women.

The 28+ crowd are not failures, atleast where I live. Many are a backbone of the community and trailbrazers in their respective fields/jobs, making it way easier for younger somalis to get these jobs.

We have derailed a little bit from the topic. Im still adamant about more somali men then women working in stem. I have personally witnessed this. Most men aren’t collectively working in stem though.

So really what you have is many women who have professional jobs and many men working in warehouse or Uber jobs ect and sprinkle in the smart STEM or corporate bros along with the small minority of smart but academic who’ve decided to get a trad job.

TBH most Somali girls do go into Nursing ect but when you’re in the US, nurses make bank and many girls are in teaching which is respectable and can easily generate 40k once you’re in your 30s but the smart ones move to the Middle East and make tax free money with their apartment paid for.

Nursing is a respectable career and you can make good money with it, especially in America and Canada.

Disparaty comes from many somali males not working good xamaali jobs such as electrician plumber, aircraft mechanic. These jobs are certified way to being well off, Im surprised why many more aren’t doing them.

 

[Angelina]

Somalis and Somalia culturally speaking aren't really strict patriarchal society.

Historically progression always accompanied expansion of womens role in society , Somali women were quranic teachers, were part of the clergy as ''Sheikhas/Ay's''/Bints'', they led army troops as commanders in medieval times for example Bintu Maxfud Dalombiru and early modern period Hasna Doreh . They participated in ruling, either direct or indirect.

I don’t think using medieval examples is great. We can say Arabs aren’t strict patriarchs using your logic as you have more examples of Arab women as teachers within Islamic history than say Somali women. You have examples of even a female ruler in Egypt at the height of the Medieval Islamic empire during the Mamluks, yet no one in their right mind will say that about Arabs.

In economics/trade they managed funds and resources that was gathered, in industry although men were blacksmiths, woodcarvers/carpenters, masons, leather makers/tanners. Somali women were pottery makers, basket makers, woven fabric mats and jointly weaved cloth alongside men.

Thats the case for all nomadic societies including Arab agricultural and nomadic women who would sell woven fabrics and even fruit and veg before the oil boom.in fact the most patriarchal societies rely on female labour. Indian and African women produce more than half of the world’s agricultural food production.

In the independence movements, Somali women formed their own branch among the SYL and participated in the struggle.

You also see their important role in Kacaan period Somalia women were seen as the backbone of the revolution and even were well represented in medicine, stem, upper levels of education, parliament and the first female pilot in the Muslim world and Africa was a Somali Asli Hassan Abade and they formed their own democratic organization with support of the government

That I agree with, but the Kacaan period was controversial since Barre used to say men and women were ‘equal’ and that irritated the clergy class who deemed his segments as unIslamic along with him trying to implement equal inheritance which is not only haram but against Somali traditions. I think the Kacaan period doesn’t truly reflect Somali cultural attitudes.

When Malcom X said that you can measure the progress of society by the progression and inclusion of women. He was dead on, history testifies to it as well.

 

[El Nino]

11 out of 20 are Muslim countries, that tells you something

Sxb, only 6 countries have more women then men in STEM. After that, it slowly drops to close 40 in the last 20

Those countries have to look themselves in the mirror. I feel like Im slandering them but these countries must have a culture of men not taking education seriously.

 

[Angelina]

The 28+ crowd are not failures, atleast where I live. Many are a backbone of the community and trailbrazers in their respective fields/jobs, making it way easier for younger somalis to get these jobs.

Deffo failures in London compared to the younger boys are all mostly university graduates with a good % in tech and STEM.

We have derailed a little bit from the topic. Im still adamant about more somali men then women working in stem. I have personally witnessed this. Most men aren’t collectively working in stem though.

I agree that more men are in STEM compared to women but I believe that there is more women in professional jobs whether it be working as teachers, nurses, corporate, working as project managers and stuff like that. Overall they’re more educated and have jobs that reflect more so than their male counterparts. Thats my point.

Nursing is a respectable career and you can make good money with it, especially in America and Canada.

Disparaty comes from many somali males not working good xamaali jobs such as electrician plumber, aircraft mechanic. These jobs are certified way to being well off, Im surprised why many more aren’t doing them.

 

[berberaboy66]

They don’t have anything to fall back on so they have to work twice as hard, first to reach a level of stability and then to excel. In patriarchal societies men always have something to fall back in and so have less pressure to succeed in life.

I think we are at a stage now where we have to be honest with ourselves and allow people positions on merit. There are many educated women in Somalia/globally and they have a CV just as good as many of their male peers.

I mentioned in a thread before about how 60% of abaarso grads are women, and there’s also a womens only university that do postgrads abroad. To think that we could miss out on all this academic talent for a useless patriarchy scares me. I’d take a competent political class made up of majority women over whatever the hell we have now.

 

[El Nino]

Patriarchal society will make men lazy if there is no expectations put on the boys.

In our community this only happens when the father is not in the picture or is just physically somewhat present but not mentally. One thing somali fathers hate is someone freeloading (excluding people back they support, they say they are ”maskiins” in need of help”). I have heard countless stories of fathers throwing out their useless sons if they were not meeting their expectations.

So we are looking at (mostly) a somali boy being raised by a single mom. I would also like to say vast majority of somali boys raised by single moms turn out well.

What usually happens is mom giving up on the useless son and latching on to his sister for financial, physical and mental help.

I actually discussed this topic with my friend and we were both alarmed about how many families essentially were not putting any expectations on their sons or the rest of the family members. We were literally beaten up if we were failing in school. I couldn’t come home to aabo and say I failed maths, same with all of my friends.

 

[berberaboy66]

Deffo failures in London compared to the younger boys are all mostly university graduates with a good % in tech and STEM.

I thought I was the only one who noticed. The older UK gen (25-35) are completely useless. I actually feel very sorry for that generation of ladies, your options are limited at best.

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[Khaemwaset]

Most Somali men aren’t even stem especially the 28+ crowd. Men mostly working in STEM compared to women doesn’t mean that they are especially when most STEM courses require uni attendance and men’s attendance is actually lower than women.

So really what you have is many women who have professional jobs and many men working in warehouse or Uber jobs ect and sprinkle in the smart STEM or corporate bros along with the small minority of smart but not academic who’ve decided to get a trad job.

Just because more women enter higher education than women that doesn't equal higher STEM. As I said before, most women enter the medical field. Tell me the last time you seen a Xalimo in Computer science or engineering or architecture. I seen many abdis in these fields. Obviously not every guy you see is doing these things. This is the case for every ethnic, except maybe asians but even them man diversify

 

[Khaemwaset]

Sxb, only 6 countries have more women then men in STEM. After that, it slowly drops to close 40 in the last 20

Those countries have to look themselves in the mirror. I feel like Im slandering them but these countries must have a culture of men not taking education seriously.

@Carton Boss main example was Turkey in engineering, But that's 40%. And he framed it as a female dominated field over there.

 

[Idilinaa]

I don’t think using medieval examples is great. We can say Arabs aren’t strict patriarchs as you have more examples of Arab women as teachers within Islamic history than say Somali women. You have examples of even an Arab female ruler in Egypt at the height of the Medieval Islamic empire during the Mamluks, yet no one in their right mind will say that about Arabs.

The medieval times is the greatest example. You have female rulers even and they even went around administrating and collected taxes like sicilis in the 1600s document that about the Sultan Abukar Abroones daughter Imbia.

Its the best example because its a period marked with prosperity so their options were expanded upon which afforded them to participate more in the political and intellectual life and you see clear examples of it. As opposed dividing into strict gender roles for complementary survival, during periods of less fortunes.

There was female saints and teachers. Well known Hadith scholars as well click the link i shared of some information in another thread. quranic teachers, were part of the clergy as ''Sheikhas/Ay's''/Bints'', so to say that there is more Arabs in comparison that's not true.

And even the early modern period high literacy in Somali towns/cities was due to female teachers. Also unlike Arabs , Somalis had notable existence of female military commanders, which is rare in the Muslim world.

Thats the case for all nomadic societies including Arab nomadic women who would sell woven fabrics and even fruit and veg before the oil boom.

They also weaved textiles, and made pottery and ceramics. Also they managed the funds and resources that was gathered, its where Hagbad financing systems came from.

Somali women also owned and sold property in cities , so they were involved in the real estate market like how it's recorded in Barawa Qadi records.

There are other economic aspects i can mention as well, how Somali women possessed and collected a lot of wealth through jewelry and also pushed that domestic demand/production and the trade of it.

One thing you will noticed from looking at old 20th century photos/depictions is how very fond Somali women were of wearing different types of ornaments, earrings, necklaces, collars, bracelets etcs.

There is a historical and economic aspects of this Jewlery tradition of Somali women and the collections we have go back to the 1700s. But the tradition go back even further based on historical medieval descriptions and it tells the story of a much more significant role of women in the local economic systems

Interesting stuff i encourage you to look into it.

That I agree with, but the Kacaan period was controversial since Barre used to say men and women were ‘equal’ and that irritated the clergy class who deemed his segments as unIslamic along with him trying to implement equal inheritance which is not only haram but against Somali traditions. I think the Kacaan period doesn’t truly reflect Somali cultural attitudes.

I don't know the specifics about that, but what is a apparent to me is that progress always involved expansion of women's choices and active participation.

Societies that keep women back deliberately are backward. Somali muslim Scholars like Osman Keenadiid advocated for Somali womens progress in education.

 

[El Nino]

Deffo failures in London compared to the younger boys are all mostly university graduates with a good % in tech and STEM.

I agree that more men are in STEM compared to women but I believe that there is more women in professional jobs whether it be working as teachers, nurses, corporate, working as project managers and stuff like that. Overall they’re more educated and have jobs that reflect more so than their male counterparts. Thats my point.

I thought I was the only one who noticed. The older UK gen (25-35) are completely useless. I actually feel very sorry for that generation of ladies, your options are limited at best.

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London and Toronto are exceptions of the western diaspora due to somalis living 30+ years in poor, crime ridden neighbourhoods. The neighbourhoods were already crime ridden when we arrived and that has influenced the earlier generations. The environment was not suitable at all.

There is multitude of factors why many of the millennials ended badly. I have my own theories but thats a discussion of another day.

 

[The alchemist]

The recent historical explanation by the liberal West for the sex bias in STEM education and career participation was supposedly rooted in this ever-amorphous claim of patriarchy. Now women overperforming in STEM in Iran is also patriarchal.

Too many things are conflated using one term only to draw ideological value judgment instead of explanatory precision.

Where the discrimination lies in the West with earning potential is merely the structure of Capitalism. Women are faced with trade-offs and opportunity cost decisions men are not burdened with due to conditions of biology, (i.e., if they want to have children or not, or delay family or career or not), having to adjust for the issue that jobs push the first job promotion into much later years than before.

The reason why women dominate in the STEM fields in Iran is the opportunities that get plus it has a social fad with it that such higher education can give them empowerment. So, it is in fact an example of going against old notions of who studies where.

The peculiar thing is, in the West, in the most equal countries, women tend to go for education and jobs they enjoy more instead of trying to equal men. In those countries, you see that men tend to over-dominate in stem by 70%. I live in Norway. These people have no concept of culture that women should study this or that. It is a very liberal country; they hold a very cringe post-traditional linear conception of how the world works. Even here, you see that women align with tertiary degrees that fit their interests, mostly away from STEM degrees.

I think the gender disparity issue framing in STEM among the Nordic countries is a flat-out Capitalistic agenda, that through the angle of problematizing it as if there must be a rooted cultural problem, all to then artificially boost female participation because there is a large ambitious developmental appetite that has to be filled in these countries, so they want to gaslight women into picking STEM or there is something wrong with them. They have been programmed to avert what they really want to pursue.

I think saying women should be equally represented in STEM is a male-driven agenda, not a female one. It's wealthy industry males and state economists who drive policies for countries that want to exploit and mold women in ways that benefit the nation in its competitive economic existence in the global marketplace. It might be cloaked in the language of gender inequality and whatnot, but it is very pragmatic in its roots.

As quite bizarre as it seems, a nation telling women what they should or should not do is a policy of leading men to assort human capital by exploiting mechanisms of social tensions and history for their own gain. Women should do what they want to do. And that is it.

But to the point of Iran. The trends there and in Saudi and UAE, if nothing else are "anti-patriarchal" trends. The reasons why men do other things and participate in higher education to a lesser degree are totally different.

Similar to how women are less prone to STEM, potentially being a biology thing, I think men are less inclined to higher education because of biology as well. Men are more practical and less studious than women. Men love the game of career building as a practical feat while women can sit behind a desk and study more. There is a reason why many boys struggle to sit still as kids while you see girls have a much calmer temperament. The classroom rascal is 9/10 always a boy.

A lot of people think I am stereotyping here and I am.

We have to remember. The educational structure, how work is structured, all these things are really set up by humans. They are not necessarily optimal for any gender and probably not even ideal. It could very well be that men perform worse in school on average and perform less because that has reached its cap. Maybe not.