"PM says US pressuring Pakistan to recognise Israel: report"

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

Was there a historical state that actually fulfilled Somaliweyn? As I understand, the only time that Somaliweyn was actually (mostly) achieved was under Italy.

I don't think Somaliweyn is the same as the Palestine issue. I don't see the two as being the same.

I don't see Siad Barre invading Ethiopia as being the same as a Palestinian freedom fighter. To me he's more similar to Ahmed Gurey than to a Palestinian freedom fighter.

Prior the European incursion into the horn of Africa.That was early 18th Century Abysinians were not even dominant players but primitive kingdoms fighting over control of each other.
When The Russians,British, French and Italians came they settled in the Somali coastal line and prevented us from importing guns at the same time they made contact with Abysinians who were using spears and arrows and gave them latest weapons and encouraged them to expand.with this Somalis were left to fight on two fronts.
One front the Europeans the other The Abysinians.
Mwnelik conquresd Harar with the logistical
help of British and French and Russians.Its not like Abysinians were superior to us in combat.

Just like Somalis Abysinians were losely held kindoms that had no central authority.

 

[AMusee]

As I understand it- I don't think that historically there was this single Somali state that included Ogaden and what is today Somalia. I don't think there is a historical basis of the current Somalia state also including the Ogaden. I think the idea is ethnically based. I think the idea is that because the people are ethnic Somalis that they should be included in the Somali state but I don't think that what is today Somalia was under a single independent Somali state which included the Ogaden.

I think the basis of the claim is ethnic.

If the Somali state (I mean the current one).... if it had previously included the Ogaden then Ethiopia had invaded and taken the Ogaden, I think I would definitely be in favor of taking back the Ogaden.

But I think it is based on ethnicity.

Given the basis for the claim- would an armed invasion of Ethiopia be justified? Should I be in favor of such an invasion?

For me to agree in principle with an armed invasion of Ethiopia would be extremely serious.

I think I would need some kind of rock-solid basis for me to agree with something like that.

My viewpoint is that I believe in peaceful means. For example, there is what Pakistan has been doing in regards to the Kashmir issue. Pakistan has been working to publicize Indian atrocities against the Kashmiris. There could be consciousness-raising among the people in the disputed territory and it could be made clear to the world at large that the people in the disputed territory are being oppressed and wish to join Somalia/Pakistan.

My viewpoint is that the issue should be made about self-determination. If it is made very clear that the people in the Somali areas wish to join Somalia- if that is made very clear then it becomes an issue of self-determination.

Then if the people within such area engage in peaceful means to try to join Somalia- then they are faced with repression from Ethiopia/Kenya then this is another factor.

Then it's a matter of people peacefully seeking to exercise self-determination and very clearly being oppressed. Then this imo would make it very clear that it's a just struggle for self-determination.

I'm not willing to agree with an armed invasion of Ethiopia purely on the basis of Somaliweyn. But if the Ogaden is like Kashmir or Palestine where Muslims are being oppressed.... and if it's made clear that it is an issue of self-determination and that Ethiopia is repressing a legitimate, popular, peaceful movement for self-determination... then I think the case for incorporating the Ogaden would be very strong and the stronger the case, I think the wider the range of acceptable means.

There could be books, videos, dvds highlighting the issue, informing people about the oppression of the Muslims, the leader of Somalia could go to the UN and talk about the plight of Muslims in Ogaden like Imran Khan has done with Kashmir.

Kashmir is kind of a dispute between Pakistan and India but I would argue it's also been recognized as a Muslim issue and not only a Pakistani issue. I think there is an Ummah-wide duty to be in solidarity with the Kashmiris and with the Palestinians. And if the Ogaden is a similar situation then all Muslims need to be in solidarity with the Muslims of the Ogaden but I think the Muslim Ummah has to be informed. I think there should be a campaign to inform the Ummah. And this is something ordinary Somalis can participate in. Ordinary Somalis can make videos, post content, etc. highlighting oppression. Then the larger Muslim world can be informed and be in solidarity. People can pressure Ilhan Omar to go in front of the public and talk about it. The leader of Somalia could talk about it at the UN like the leader of Pakistan did with Kashmir. The issue could be brought to the attention of Turkey. TRT seems pretty pro-Muslim and has a wide reach.

I am not willing to agree in principle with an armed invasion of Ethiopia on the basis of Somaliweyn. But if it's clearly established that the will of the people is to join Somalia and that the people are being oppressed by Ethiopia then I think the case for incorporating the land into Somalia is very strong. I think it very likely can be established that the people are being oppressed but I am not sure one way or the other as to whether the people want to join Somalia. Then with Kenya.... I don't get any impression that Kenya has been oppressing Muslims. I could be uninformed but I don't know of them oppressing Muslims. And I don't know if native Somali people in Kenya want to join Somalia.

If it can be established that the land is inhabited by a native Somali population (which I believe is established), that the Somalis are being oppressed (which I think can be established with Ethiopia but maybe not Kenya) and that the Somalis want to join Somalia- then I'm definitely for incorporating the territory into Somalia. But I don't agree in principle on armed invasion purely on the basis of Somaliweyn.

Is there proof from the Quran and Sunnah that would support fighting purely on the basis of Somaliweyn?

I know there is a Quranic basis for fighting in defense of the oppressed, however

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper"?

-Surah An-Nisa 4:75

You are an inconsistent joke.

What kind of criteria is that? Its the same one Jews make about Palestine to claim the land was never theirs.

We all knows nation states are a modern phenomenon. Point is the land had always been Somali and the peoples will was to always be with their Somali brethren. Not an oppressive Christian dominated country that as been invading and attacking Muslims for centuries.

In what world has anyone won their territory back through peaceful means?

It is clear you use Islam to propagate your political beliefs that have nothing to do with Islam and Muslims.

Its great you have made your hypocrisy clear for all to see.

 

[Sloane Ranger]

You are an inconsistent joke.

What kind of criteria is that? Its the same one Jews make about Palestine to claim the land was never theirs.

We all knows nation states are a modern phenomenon. Point is the land had always been Somali and the peoples will was to always be with their Somali brethren. Not an oppressive Christian dominated country that as been invading and attacking Muslims for centuries.

In what world has anyone won their territory back through peaceful means?

It is clear you use Islam to propagate your political beliefs that have nothing to do with Islam and Muslims.

Its great you have made your hypocrisy clear for all to see.

He cheerleads for China because they are anti west and denies the conditions of Uighurs in China. Denies mistreatment of Somali muslims by Kenya and tries to use a Quran Ayaa to justify them being sitting ducks. He's a troll and shouldn't speak on the ummah.

We all know what the deen says about siding against muslim in their time of need. Its inexcusable.

When Imam Mahdi returns it won't be through begging for our rights. You can't be a pacifist when being forcibly removed from your home and aerial bombed.

He picks and chooses when the rulings of the deen should be applied.

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Halimo Supremist @AMusee

I was directly asked about my viewpoint regarding Ethiopia and Kenya in regards to Somalia.

So I answered, giving my viewpoint. It is definitely true that I am not a hardcore supporter of Somaliweyn. Why would I be a big supporter of Somaliweyn?

I am a bad guy because I am not willing to endorse invading Kenya and Ethiopia?

That is a lot to expect from me. In any case, I have my own viewpoint and I would rather be honest and be attacked for my viewpoint then say what I think others want to hear.

Instead of immediately going on the attack, people could simply explain why they think I should support their views and then it could simply be a discussion of ideas. But by not agreeing with invading Ethiopia and Kenya, I see that to people it is like I have profaned something sacred.

I have a right to my own viewpoint and I do not view Somaliweyn as being something like Quran and Sunnah. If I am wrong, you could simply explain to me and give me the facts and help enlighten me on the issue. But I am attacked very staunchly for my difference in opinion. I am willing to accept that, however. I am not willing to endorse invading Kenya and Ethiopia just because it is what people want to hear.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

@Halimo Supremist @AMusee

I was directly asked about my viewpoint regarding Ethiopia and Kenya in regards to Somalia.

So I answered, giving my viewpoint. It is definitely true that I am not a hardcore supporter of Somaliweyn. Why would I be a big supporter of Somaliweyn?

I am a bad guy because I am not willing to endorse invading Kenya and Ethiopia?

That is a lot to expect from me. In any case, I have my own viewpoint and I would rather be honest and be attacked for my viewpoint then say what I think others want to hear.

Instead of immediately going on the attack, people could simply explain why they think I should support their views and then it could simply be a discussion of ideas. But by not agreeing with invading Ethiopia and Kenya, I see that to people it is like I have profaned something sacred.

I have a right to my own viewpoint and I do not view Somaliweyn as being something like Quran and Sunnah. If I am wrong, you could simply explain to me and give me the facts and help enlighten me on the issue. But I am attacked very staunchly for my difference in opinion. I am willing to accept that, however. I am not willing to endorse invading Kenya and Ethiopia just because it is what people want to hear.

Are you Ethiopian?

 

[Omar del Sur]

He cheerleads for China because they are anti west and denies the conditions of Uighurs in China. Denies mistreatment of Somali muslims by Kenya

well yes, I do believe the alleged Uyghur genocide is Western propaganda. I have a right to that view and I stand by it. I have a right to form my own conclusion and I'm not wiling to change it because it goes against what others believe.

and as for denying mistreatment of Somali muslims by Kenya... I said this

I don't get any impression that Kenya has been oppressing Muslims. I could be uninformed but I don't know of them oppressing Muslims.

I myself said I could be wrong and that I simply don't know of them oppressing Muslims. People could simply explain to me and I had left open the possibilty that I was uninformed. But attacking me personally in such a way... hmm. I was directly asked a question about my viewpoint of Ethiopia and Kenya and so I gave my viewpoint.

 

[BlackJack]

Just how many people on here are pro-Israel? People with that mindset are no better than the Saudi leadership who people are so against.

Instead of bowing to Israel, I think we should have a backbone.

Isn’t your ass pro-China? You have no right to criticize no one,

 

[Omar del Sur]

Isn’t your ass pro-China? You have no right to criticize no one,

Like I mentioned before, I don't believe about the alleged Uyghur genocide and I view it as Western propaganda.

 

[BlackJack]

Like I mentioned before, I don't believe about the alleged Uyghur genocide and I view it as Western propaganda.

If you support the. Chinese you have no right to criticize Muslims who support Israel.

 

[Sloane Ranger]

@Omar del Sur I never said we need to gather the troops and attack. You are deflecting I mentioned the religious aspect as you are inconsistent with your views on the Ummah.

Why is Kashmir an issue for the ummah but Somali regions are not? Kashmir or Palestine never had fellow muslims send soldiers to attack them. We did. Both the PLO and Pakistan supported Ethiopian Christian invaders against fellow muslims.

Somaliweyn is an issue for Somalis to deal with. We had Somali kingdoms in that region since the beginning. I don't see the basis of you supporting against a uniting Somalia. I thought muslims claiming to be infavour of the ummah wouldn't support a colonial partition of muslim lands.

Both Palestine and Kashmir fell victim to this same treachery. Why is it only okay if its happening to Somalis?

As for your continous defense of China on the basis of them being Anti-West so is the occupation of Somali territory. I have given you examples of why I support this you have yet to counter this and are now being defensive.

 

[Omar del Sur]

I mean of course people here will attack me if I do not go in line with a certain viewpoint... but what would I do if I'm around Ethiopians and Kenyans.... "yeah, I endorsed your country being invaded because of peer pressure from Somalis"...... I'm not willing to endorse invasions of those countries and it's a tall order to expect from me.

 

[BlackJack]

@Omar del Sur I never said we need to gather the troops and attack. You are deflecting I mentioned the religious aspect as you are inconsistent with your views on the Ummah.

Why is Kashmir an issue for the ummah but Somali regions are not? Kashmir or Palestine never had fellow muslims send soldiers to attack them. We did. Both the PLO and Pakistan supported Ethiopian Christian invaders against fellow muslims.

Somaliweyn is an issue for Somalis to deal with. We had Somali kingdoms in that region since the beginning. I don't see the basis of you supporting against a uniting Somalia. I thought muslims claiming to be infavour of the ummah wouldn't support a colonial partition of muslim lands.

Both Palestine and Kashmir fell victim to this same treachery. Why is it only okay if its happening to Somalis?

As for your continous defense of China on the basis of them being Anti-West so is the occupation of Somali territory. I have given you examples of why I support this you have yet to counter this and are now being defensive.

It picks and chooses who to support. A hippocratic at it’s finest.

 

[Sloane Ranger]

well yes, I do believe the alleged Uyghur genocide is Western propaganda. I have a right to that view and I stand by it. I have a right to form my own conclusion and I'm not wiling to change it because it goes against what others believe.

and as for denying mistreatment of Somali muslims by Kenya... I said this



I myself said I could be wrong and that I simply don't know of them oppressing Muslims. People could simply explain to me and I had left open the possibilty that I was uninformed. But attacking me personally in such a way... hmm. I was directly asked a question about my viewpoint of Ethiopia and Kenya and so I gave my viewpoint.

Well its a personal issue for me as a Somali. If you don't want to be criticised for something then don't comment if it bothers you that much. I have informed you the reasons why take it however you want.

 

[Sloane Ranger]

I mean of course people here will attack me if I do not go in line with a certain viewpoint... but what would I do if I'm around Ethiopians and Kenyans.... "yeah, I endorsed your country being invaded because of peer pressure from Somalis"...... I'm not willing to endorse invasions of those countries and it's a tall order to expect from me.

They are not being invaded, Somalis are. Would you say to an Israeli or an Indian hindu that you support their transgressions?

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Omar del Sur I never said we need to gather the troops and attack. You are deflecting I mentioned the religious aspect as you are inconsistent with your views on the Ummah.

Why is Kashmir an issue for the ummah but Somali regions are not? Kashmir or Palestine never had fellow muslims send soldiers to attack them. We did. Both the PLO and Pakistan supported Ethiopian Christian invaders against fellow muslims.

Somaliweyn is an issue for Somalis to deal with. We had Somali kingdoms in that region since the beginning. I don't see the basis of you supporting against a uniting Somalia. I thought muslims claiming to be infavour of the ummah wouldn't support a colonial partition of muslim lands.

Both Palestine and Kashmir fell victim to this same treachery. Why is it only okay if its happening to Somalis?

There was a Palestine before Israel. As I understand it, Somaliweyn was only (mostly) achieved under Italian colonialism.

I have not said Somali regions are not an issue for the Ummah. I was saying that the Ummah should be informed if there are human rights violations so that the Ummah can be in solidarity. The fact is that many Muslims don't know anything about the given human rights violations. How can Muslims be in solidarity if they haven't been informed?

 

[Sloane Ranger]

Are you Ethiopian?

I agree why would a supposed Mexican have an issue with Somaliweyn? This is an issue for Somalis to agree/disagree on.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Well its a personal issue for me as a Somali. If you don't want to be criticised for something then don't comment if it bothers you that much. I have informed you the reasons why take it however you want.

I was asked a question and I answered it. I am willing to be criticized for my viewpoint but I think that people should explain before they go on the attack.

 

[BlackJack]

Also @Omar del Sur you support Ethiopia who continues to rape and oppress your fellow Somalis and Muslims daily. The people who burn down our mosques and lock up our sheikhs for no reason? But Palestine and Kashmir matter to you?

 

[Sloane Ranger]

Also @Omar del Sur you support Ethiopia who continues to rape and oppress your fellow Somalis and Muslims daily. The people who burn down our mosques and lock up our sheikhs for no reason? But Palestine and Kashmir matter to you?

In his mind since the regions didn't come under a central Somali government it shouldn't hold the same weight as Palestine or Kashmir.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Also @Omar del Sur you support Ethiopia who continues to rape and oppress your fellow Somalis and Muslims daily. The people who burn down our mosques and lock up our sheikhs for no reason? But Palestine and Kashmir matter to you?

Okay. Let me put them side by side- Ethiopia, Israel, India.

Israel I don't think should exist at all. I think Israel has no right to exist.

India- I do not want the end of India. I want India to stop promoting Hindutva and to not oppress the Kashmiris. However, I don't want the total breakup of India.

Ethiopia- I want the rights of Muslims to be protected. But do I want Ethiopia to be invaded? And then what? Ethiopia loses Ogaden and then what? Possibly all of Ethiopia breaks apart.

For me to push for what possibly would be the total breakup of Ethiopia.... that would be really big. It would be a lot to expect from me. I'm not willing to be in favor of invading Ethiopia.