Sinai origin of E-Z813?

[The alchemist]

That is what I thought. I think this guy is Ababda or some type of Beja. He could even be an ethnic Egyptian with a Beja background that he might have forgotten (probably not since the dialect he set with the Bedawi designation points to northern Beja). Either way, the strongest speculation is that he is Ababda descended.

@Reformed J this is exciting.

I am glad that the Cushitic brethren still keep a presence in the region they come from.

A lot of the Qena Arabs are in fact of Beja background since Ababda speak Arabic today and many of them, if not the majority, consider themselves Arab first but they are of Beja origin, though they do have some admixture it seems.

"The Egyptian Beja are divided into two tribes—the ʿAbābdah and the Bishārīn. The ʿAbābdah occupy the Eastern Desert south of a line between Qinā and Al-Ghardaqah; there are also several groups settled along the Nile between Aswān and Qinā."

 

[Juke]

View attachment 326037

That is what I thought. I think this guy is Ababda or some type of Beja. He could even be an ethnic Egyptian with a Beja background that he might have forgotten (probably not since the dialect he set with the Bedawi designation points to northern Beja). Either way, the strongest speculation is that he is Ababda descended.

@Reformed J this is exciting.

View attachment 326038

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I am glad that the Cushitic brethren still keep a presence in the region they come from.

A lot of the Qena Arabs are in fact of Beja background since Ababda speak Arabic today and many of them, if not the majority, consider themselves Arab first but they are of Beja origin, though they do have some admixture it seems.

"The Egyptian Beja are divided into two tribes—the ʿAbābdah and the Bishārīn. The ʿAbābdah occupy the Eastern Desert south of a line between Qinā and Al-Ghardaqah; there are also several groups settled along the Nile between Aswān and Qinā."

This guy seems to have more info about him

"The sample is in the name of Al-Saghir, Muhammad Ibrahim Khalil, from the Al-Jaafira Al-Husseini"

 

[datesfrompuntland]

G25 is not very accurate especially when doing these kind of models lol, Eritreans here score 6% Iran/Chg and qpadm they are like 12% and have less Natufian, same with Somalis

Because they’re Semitic speakers? It mixed Anatolian farmer and chg sometimes

 

[BidaarBoy]

Because they’re Semitic speakers? It mixed Anatolian farmer and chg sometimes

Yes the extra CHG-like ancestry is due to their Semitic speaking ancestors

 

[datesfrompuntland]

Yes the extra CHG-like ancestry is due to their Semitic speaking ancestors

Sometimes it’s mixed with EHG, maybe mixing noise from ehg in with chg.

 

[BidaarBoy]

Sometimes it’s mixed with EHG, maybe mixing noise from ehg in with chg.

I don’t think so

 

[Garaad Awal]

There's a new basal E-Z813 sample.

Although he didn't put a flag, he designated himself with avl, Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic, the dialect spoken by nomads in: the Sinai peninsula and the Negev desert.

It'd be interesting if he continues to be basal at E-Z813. In such a case there'd be two basal E-Z813 samples in the same general vicinity: Sinai and Nablus/Palestine. Along with the fleshed out subclades, E-Y17859 and E-Z21175, which have upstream samples in the Sinai, NW Saudi Arabia and Kuwait that run parallel to the Cushitic branches.

Of course there's obvious caveats such as: the lone Neolithic E-Z813 being a >3,000 year old Kenyan pastoralist; and E-Z813's sister clade E-Y28701 containing Saharans and early medieval Kulubnarti Nubians. Rather than a Sinai origin as the present DNA evidence suggests, it could simply be a case of under sampling of nomads from the eastern desert.

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The Saudis under the same clade come from NW Saudi neighbouring the Sinai with the last name Bedawi I believe. Very interesting theory

 

[Juke]

The Saudis under the same clade come from NW Saudi neighbouring the Sinai with the last name Bedawi I believe. Very interesting theory

What about the Palestinian guy from a small village called Beit Imrin outside Nablus? His family name is Al-Samara. Was he a Samaritan? kkk

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[Garaad Awal]

What about the Palestinian guy from a small village called Beit Imrin outside Nablus? His family name is Al-Samara. Was he a Samaritan? kkk

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Probably they descend from Egyptians/“Nubians” who entered during the Egyptian Empire. There was two Egyptian samples found in Iron Age Beirut.

 

[Doctorabdi]

Probably they descend from Egyptians/“Nubians” who entered during the Egyptian Empire. There was two Egyptian samples found in Iron Age Beirut.

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[Doctorabdi]

@Step a side @The alchemist I do have to ask, the common ancestor between all these group seems to be around 2000 BCE as Shimbiri said. Wouldn't most of our genetic material already been inside the horn and was there a secondary migration of nubians?

 

[Step a side]

@Step a side @The alchemist I do have to ask, the common ancestor between all these group seems to be around 2000 BCE as Shimbiri said. Wouldn't most of our genetic material already been inside the horn and was there a secondary migration of nubians?

I will wait for @The alchemist or @Shimbiris because I’m not sure. From Somaliland to Eastern Sudan propably had the same stock of people with Eritrea being the epicentre of that culture.

Who is the Nubian according to you? The medieval kulubnarti E-v32 Nubians were mostly positive for this branch I don’t think they had anything to do with the aforementioned group above other than backing each other up against the Ancient Egyptians at times of war.

E-Y28701 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[The alchemist]

@Step a side @The alchemist I do have to ask, the common ancestor between all these group seems to be around 2000 BCE as Shimbiri said. Wouldn't most of our genetic material already been inside the horn and was there a secondary migration of nubians?

Strictly from that haplogroup, it would not be in the Horn of Africa 4000 years ago.

There were at least two migrations ~1000 years apart, with the latter being that haplogroup.

 

[BidaarBoy]

@Step a side @The alchemist I do have to ask, the common ancestor between all these group seems to be around 2000 BCE as Shimbiri said. Wouldn't most of our genetic material already been inside the horn and was there a secondary migration of nubians?

There were multiple migrations of pastoralists coming into the Horn over a long period of time, at least as far back as 5000 years, probably 6, the bulk probably came 4500-3000 years ago

 

[Malikfiqi]

There were multiple migrations of pastoralists coming into the Horn over a long period of time, at least as far back as 5000 years, probably 6, the bulk probably came 4500-3000 years ago

Instresting stuff came out on the gash culture. Your right have the successive waves of pastoralists coming into the horn. The latest migrations happened at the tail end of the gash culture perhaps being the cause of the cultures decline. The Y-Dna samples from the culture weren't any subclades found in modern somalis. Perhaps a latter wave of related paternal lineages wiped them out.

 

[Step a side]

Instresting stuff came out on the gash culture. Your right have the successive waves of pastoralists coming into the horn. The latest migrations happened at the tail end of the gash culture perhaps being the cause of the cultures decline. The Y-Dna samples from the culture weren't any subclades found in modern somalis. Perhaps a latter wave of related paternal lineages wiped them out.

Show me the stuff on the gash. Sounds interesting.

 

[The alchemist]

@Shimbiris recently updated me on how one Sudanese from Khartoum fell under an early sub-clade under E-Z813 and had to post here since I figured others wanted to know a few things.

Sooner or later, I expected this to appear in other places like Sudan. The clear Beja association with some of the new samples, especially the other older sub-clades that branched out of E-Z813, reveals a strong substantiation of how that entire lineage was Cushitic.

This dispels and confirms a couple of lesser hypotheses:

- That the clade was introduced toward the Middle Nile Valley through Sinai Bedouins. (debunked)
- That the Egyptian samples were indeed Ababda. (Confirmed)

My initial explanation about the early Arab appearances only makes sense if the Cushites bordered these Arabs somewhere deep into Egypt and Arabs came further south. All the Arab samples had a secondary expansion from the southern Levant-Sinai. So my thinking was, since those people descend from Beduins, it had to be in the eastern desert environment, and somewhere far north. Now that this is present, added with some historical context, it seems E-Z813 was actually a lower Nubian clade, Wawat, and not centered in the Eastern Desert.

But I might have been wrong and those clades might have appeared in the Sinai because of actions taken from the Egyptian empire.

You see, if we locate those dates ~3200 BP, we arrive at the Ramesside dynasties. A few things happened during that period, and it was namely the conflict Ancient Egypt had with the Levant and the conflict they had with Nubia, specifically, Wawat (direct descendants of C-Group).

Those Ancient Egyptians won those conflicts and had a custom of taking the captives and relocating them completely else. For example, a group they called Shasu, i.e., Levantine Bedouin Semites, they sent to Libya. And guess where they sent the Nubians? To the Delta. My theory is that they sent them not only to the Delta but also to the far eastern reaches of that region, neighboring Beduin lands. Also, this was a practice of that time, so they might have sent Nubians directly to the Sinai.

So, instead of it being the Eastern Desert clade that passed it on to peripheral Arabs, I believe it was actually a clade of Lower Nubians (who certainly had some relation to the Eastern Desert), who under defeat, were sent to the Sinai region where the process I mentioned with intermixing with the Beduins passed on the Y-DNA.

My thinking is, as the Ramesside dynasty used to relocate captives, with clear evidence showing that it is mentioned that Merenptah, a pharaoh from 1219 BC, E-Y251832 is exactly of such consequence.

Look at the dating of the TMRCA:

3200 years before present. This is the period we're speaking of. The Palestinian is probably descendant of Shasu Beduins who resided in the Sinai who recieved such Y chromosomal DNA from the tribal relational process I had already outlined.

I believe some of those Nubians ended up among Shasu who were the ancestors of that very Nablus residing Palestinian, while he shares a common ancestor going back 3200 BP with the Ababda of Upper Egypt and the new sample from Khartoum. We're potentially looking at families that were broken up because of a brutal attack by Ancient Egypt.

The Nubians and the Libyans likely did the attack coordinated.

In this context, there was a big famine in the region, and because of the rebellion by Wawat, and the utter savage way the Egyptians responded, we could directly be descended from those Lower Nubians, that at that time or few centuries later, started to venture away from the region towards Punt, and later into the region that we now reside. Wheras the captives might have been sent to Western Delta coming in contact with Shasu beduins, or sent directly to Sinai for mining or other purposes, again, assimilating with the local beduins. Or less likely but worthy mention, they could have been directly sent to Canaan, again, mixing with the beduins.