Sofala island:somali colony

[Factz]

I will be back any time you get this confused. You may not read the links, but at least I will have tried, and the links will be available to those who will take advantage of them.

No one here is confused. You ignored my sources even when I gave you the links but it doesn't matter. Like you said people will judge them and the likes prove so.

By the way, the link you gave me on Sofala is Encyclopaedia meaning you can edit it. It's the same thing like Wiki, it's not authentic like my sources which are written by top historians and the informations are literally from the books.

However, you still didn't prove your claims about Mogadishu or Shirazi. We can all agree you made that up. If you make a claim sir, please back it up like me.

 

[Grant]

Factz wants links. I can understand that, as his are no good. This is Sofala. It's on the coast, at the mouth of the Buzi river.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...4154/5067751398_4dc6fe70f3_z.jpg&action=click

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Did everyone notice the depiction of Sofala island in the middle of the Buzi River in the second OP post?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...ttp://users.rowan.edu/~mcinneshin/101/wk11/im
ages%2Fzimgold.jpg&action=click

The Great Zimbabwe gold field:

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https://answers.yahoo.com/question/...Buzi river and the Great Zimbabwe gold fields

" Best Answer: Sofala, at present known as Nova Sofala, used to be the chief seaport of the Monomotapa Kingdom, whose capital was at Mount Fura. It is located on the Sofala Bank in Sofala Province of Mozambique.

Sofala's position as the principal entrepot of the Monomatapa gold trade prompted Portuguese chronicler Tomé Lopes to identify Sofala with the Biblical Ophir and its ancient rulers with the dynasty of the queen of Sheba. Although the notion was mentioned by Milton in Paradise Lost, among many other works of literature and science, it has since been discarded. The name Sofala is most probably derived from the Arabic for 'lowlands', a reference to the flat coastlands and low-lying islands and sandbanks that characterize the region.

Although the revenues from Sofala's gold trade proved a windfall for the Sultans of Kilwa, and allowed them to finance the expansion of the Swahili commercial empire all along the East African coast, Sofala was not a mere subsidiary or outpost of Kilwa, but a leading town in its own right, with its own internal elite, merchant communities, trade connections and settlements as far south as Cape Correntes (and some across the channel in Madagascar). Formally, Sofala continued to belong to the Kingdom of Monomatapa, the Swahili community paying tribute for permission to reside and trade there. The Sultan of Kilwa only had jurisdiction on the Swahili residents, and his governor was more akin to a consul than a ruler. The city retained a great degree of autonomy, and could be quite prickly should the Sultan of Kilwa try to interfere in their affairs. Sofala was easily the most dominant coastal city south of Kilwa itself.One of the oldest harbours documented in Southern Africa, medieval Sofala was erected on the edge of a wide estuary formed by the Buzi River (called Rio de Sofala in older maps). Sofala was founded about the year 700 AD. The Arabs had frequented the coast since 915, followed by traders from Persia.The Buzi river connected Sofala to the internal market town of Manica, and from there to the goldfields of Great Zimbabwe and the Monomatapa. Sometime in the 10th C., Sofala emerged as a small trading post erected by Arab merchants from Mogadishu (modern Somalia), to trade cotton cloth for Monomatapa gold and ivory. In the 1180s, Sultan Suleiman Hassan of Kilwa (in present-day Tanzania) seized control of Sofala, and brought Sofala into the Kilwa Sultanate and the Swahili cultural sphere. The Swahili strengthened its trading capacity by having, among other things, river-going dhows ply the Buzi and Save rivers to ferry the gold extracted in the hinterlands to the coast."
http://www.mozambique.co.za/About_Mozambique-travel/mozambique-info.html


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Sofala does not mean "go dig" in Somali, it means "lowlands" in Arabic. Sofala was originally a small island in the Buzi river and is now part of the Buzi river estuary. There is no gold under it.

There are a number of good Shirazi links in this thread:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/the-shirazi-settlement-of-east-africa.42241/

Especially this one:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/180168...d122f4cafa14535&seq=11#page_scan_tab_contents

"Shirazi" referred to the region of the Persian Gulf, and included the Arabs there.

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http://www.wernerhermans.com/downloads/Ancient Arab settlements of the Swahili Coast.pdf

Ancient Arab settlements of the Swahilli Coast: Note the photos of Mog near the bottom. (Mog was the boundary between Barbar and Zanj. Merka was conquered by the Biimaal. Baraawe spoke a Swahili dialect. The Shirazis are thought to have moved south from either the Banaadir or the Lamu area to create the Swahili culture.

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Ibn Batuta was clearly not describing Somali dhaqan or Somali political titles. Mogadishu was an Arab, Persian and probably Indian enclave until the Yemeni governor was killed by the Hiraab about 1624. It was thereafter until the Italians under Yemeni or Omani control whenever their fleets were in port. Hiraab/Abgal strength remained in the hinterland, and Hawiyye groups generally soon went on to drive the Ajuraan south. The Cadcads were never expelled. Some of the great trading houses intermarried with the Abgaal leadership, but retained control of the trade. Reer Faqi and the Muzzaffars were Yemeni.
__________________________________________

The Oxford Research Encyclopedias are nothing like Wiki. You don't get to "edit" the articles. In this article the Chinese said 12th century coast and interior Somali people were different. 16th century Mogadishu traded with Melaka in Southeast Asia, but in Indian ships. The Bajunni built small sewn fishing boats called "mtepe"and larger "ba" boats used for transportation, but the people were safe on their islands because the Shirazis only wanted to trade, and Oromo and later Somalis themselves, until Hafun, did not have ships.

The Swahili in the African and Indian Ocean Worlds to c. 1500

http://africanhistory.oxfordre.com/...0277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-152

"Along the Somali coast, the 12th century, Chinese author Chau Ju-kua had noted a contrast between pastoralists in the interior and cosmopolitan mercantile societies in coastal cities like Brava and Mogadishu. Coastal societies were stratified, with the king and his ministers living in brick houses and wearing jackets and turbans, while the common people lived in huts made of palm leaves and wrapped themselves in cotton stuffs but went bareheaded and barefooted.24 According to the Kilwa Chronicle, Mogadishu had initially controlled the Sofala gold trade before it was overtaken by Kilwa. It was visited in the 14th century by Ibn Battuta who said that the Sultan was “in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi,” presumably Somali, although he also knew Arabic. He wore fabrics imported from Jerusalem and Egypt. There was an elaborate commercial system, with touts taking merchants to their respective hosts who provided accommodation and transacted their business, while scholars like Ibn Battuta were received by the Qadhi.25 The Chinese Ming expeditions in the early 15th century found houses at Mogadishu that were four or five stories high. In the early 16th century, Barbosa reported that wealthy people exchanged their produce for colored silks and satins, gold, silver, porcelain, pepper, rice, and other cereals from Cambay, and Pires adds that traders from Mogadishu, as well as those from Mombasa, Malindi, and Kilwa, traded as far as Melaka in Southeast Asia, although apparently in Indian ships from Cambay.26"

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The East African ports were entrepot traders. They stockpiled goods and waited for ships to come to them. Clients of the Somali ports, with Somali sailors, participated with the Omanis in the siege of Mombassa, but not the ports themselves, and the Ajuraan were also not represented. The earlier shipping down the coast to Sofala and back was done by Shirazis in Shirazi ships.

The Pungwe river basin article has nothing to do with Sofala. The rest of Factz' links are just bad interpretation and bad reading. The more recent scholarly links are above and come to very different conclusions.

 

[Factz]

@Grant You never stop discrediting the Somali history do you? I'll address each of your points since you just didn't provide evidence on Mogadishu, Muzzafar or the Benadir coast. You didn't provide evidence on Ajuran coast or Somali traditing boats so I'll debunk you bit by bit. I want you to accept these sources and stop running around in circles with me.

1. Let's begin with Mogadishu and the Benadir coast shall we? I'll prove to you why it was always inhabited and dominated by Somalis.

You said Mogadishu was an Arab, Persian or Indian enclave correct? Did you know a medieval scholar called Qadi from Egypt visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast and he was a friend of Ibn Battuta? He clearly Mogadishu and the Benadir coast were not West or South Asian enclaves but it was dominated by dark skin native people that spoke their native African language.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ROZs6lqW9RYC&pg=PA124&dq=mogadishu+dark+skin+enclave&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs6PeXl7PcAhVCJVAKHY_xC0sQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=mogadishu dark skin enclave&f=false

Further reading tells you Somali people most important settlements on the coast was Mogadishu, Zeila, Berbera, Merca and Barawa.

I mean, it's true Arab, Persian and Indian merchants lived on the Benadir coast. However, it was predominantly Somali. Here is a source telling you Mogadishu, Merca and Barawa was predominantly Somali. Read the source carefully this time. It says "The local people on the coastal areas and in the interior were predominantly Somali."

Reading further it says from Merca to Ras Hafun was primarily inhabited by Somalis.

You said Bimaal invaded Merca, well did you know it was originally settled by Hawiye? Read the source above and by the way, Barawa always traditionally belong to Tunni and they speak Af Maay another Somali dialect but those authentic sources I showed tells you Merca and Barawa was predominantly Somali including Mogadishu so you cannot make up excuses here.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...cAhUKKMAKHbGtCUQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now please don't twist Ibn Battuta history. As for Ibn Battuta. Here is everything Ibn Battuta wrote about Mogadishu and Zeila in the 13th century. Where does in day that there were more West asians than Somalis? He said that from Zeila to Mogadishu was Bilad Al-Berber land (medieval name for Somalis).

Source: http://www.classzone.com/books/wh_05_shared/pdf/WHS05_015_424_PS.pdf

I mean he met the Somali ruler of Mogadishu and said he was dark skin part of Bilad Al-Berber race that spoke his native tongue (Somali).

By the way, we both know Somalis were referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara by the Arabs during the middle ages and I'll post an evidence just so you know I'm right.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JpNY7VPn1WUC&pg=PA130&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

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2. Now I'll address Sofala. Your link: http://africanhistory.oxfordre.com/...0277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-152

"According to the Kilwa Chronicle, Mogadishu had initially controlled the Sofala gold trade before it was overtaken by Kilwa. It was visited in the 14th century by Ibn Battuta who said that the Sultan was “in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi,” presumably Somali, although he also knew Arabic."

It clearly states Mogadishu once controlled Sofala and I showed you multiple authentic scholary sources stating that Mogadishu was always inhabited and dominated by ethnic Somalis. It also states the ruler of Mogadishu was Barbara origin and I showed you a source that's how ancient and medieval Somalis were referred. That's our ancestors name.

Now I don't know you are ignoring this news but the the Mozambique government is digging gold mines in Sofala. Here: http://www.elmed-rostov.ru/Projects/Pungwe CD/Reports/eng/Others/Trainee Report - Gold Mining.pdf

Here is another source I found telling you Somali merchants from mogadishu establish a colony in Sofala.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fTSqDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT57&dq=somali+established+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjelf-0mcLcAhVmBsAKHfRRAU8Q6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=somali established colony in sofala&f=false

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3. Now I'm going to be addressing the Ajuran coast and Mudaffar dynasty.

Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran Empire and was always under Ajuran rule. Look at this medieval map of Ajuran Sultanate.

Here is another source telling you Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran and João de Sepúvelda a Portuguese commander tried to conquer Mogadishu but Ajuran silently defeated him and his naval forces through a naval warfare.

In fact, the Mudaffar dynasty was a sub-dynasty of the Garen dynasty. They were Ajuran rulers that only ruled the Mogadishu province. They belong to an Ajuran sub-clan called Moorshe who once dominated Mogadishu but they were driven out by Abgaal. However, the Cadcads weren't kicked out but joined the Hiraab Imamate instead. If Cadcads were the main settlers then they would've been driven out so really you're not making any sense here, Grant.

Mudaffar dynasty only ruled Mogadishu which was an Ajuran province and the dynasty was part of the Ajuran stock. They were not Yemeni, it's a complete lie because Ajuran is a Somali clan, not a Yemeni clan.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&dq=Ajuran+Imamate&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkncnpksLcAhVOecAKHbT6C6AQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate&f=false

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4. I don't know why you love distorting Somali history but Somalis have the richset maritime history in Africa. They are seafarers, traders, merchants and shipbuilders and there are so many documents for it. I mean the model ship Oman used called Beden originated from the 13 ancient Somali city-states until Azanians and southern Arabia copied us. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beden

Did you know Ajuran and Adal had their own model ships?

Ajuran did build ships. They had a powerful navy and done naval expedition as far as southeast Asia with their Ottoman allies to weaken Portuguese influence in the Indian Ocean.

Here is the model of Ajuran boat and it was called Ajuran markab.

Heck, did you know Ajuran protected the Ottoman trading boats? Read the source below.

Lastly, look at this map carefully. It shows you where Somali ships reached and established settlements at.

 

[Grant]

@Grant You never stop discrediting the Somali history do you? I'll address each of your points since you just didn't provide evidence on Mogadishu, Muzzafar or the Benadir coast. You didn't provide evidence on Ajuran coast or Somali traditing boats so I'll debunk you bit by bit. I want you to accept these sources and stop running around in circles with me.

1. Let's begin with Mogadishu and the Benadir coast shall we? I'll prove to you why it was always inhabited and dominated by Somalis.

You said Mogadishu was an Arab, Persian or Indian enclave correct? Did you know a medieval scholar called Qadi from Egypt visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast and he was a friend of Ibn Battuta? He clearly Mogadishu and the Benadir coast were not West or South Asian enclaves but it was dominated by dark skin native people that spoke their native African language.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ROZs6lqW9RYC&pg=PA124&dq=mogadishu+dark+skin+enclave&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs6PeXl7PcAhVCJVAKHY_xC0sQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=mogadishu dark skin enclave&f=false

Further reading tells you Somali people most important settlements on the coast was Mogadishu, Zeila, Berbera, Merca and Barawa.

I mean, it's true Arab, Persian and Indian merchants lived on the Benadir coast. However, it was predominantly Somali. Here is a source telling you Mogadishu, Merca and Barawa was predominantly Somali. Read the source carefully this time. It says "The local people on the coastal areas and in the interior were predominantly Somali."

Reading further it says from Merca to Ras Hafun was primarily inhabited by Somalis.

You said Bimaal invaded Merca, well did you know it was originally settled by Hawiye? Read the source above and by the way, Barawa always traditionally belong to Tunni and they speak Af Maay another Somali dialect but those authentic sources I showed tells you Merca and Barawa was predominantly Somali including Mogadishu so you cannot make up excuses here.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...cAhUKKMAKHbGtCUQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now please don't twist Ibn Battuta history. As for Ibn Battuta. Here is everything Ibn Battuta wrote about Mogadishu and Zeila in the 13th century. Where does in day that there were more West asians than Somalis? He said that from Zeila to Mogadishu was Bilad Al-Berber land (medieval name for Somalis).

Source: http://www.classzone.com/books/wh_05_shared/pdf/WHS05_015_424_PS.pdf

I mean he met the Somali ruler of Mogadishu and said he was dark skin part of Bilad Al-Berber race that spoke his native tongue (Somali).

By the way, we both know Somalis were referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara by the Arabs during the middle ages and I'll post an evidence just so you know I'm right.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JpNY7VPn1WUC&pg=PA130&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

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2. Now I'll address Sofala. Your link: http://africanhistory.oxfordre.com/...0277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-152

"According to the Kilwa Chronicle, Mogadishu had initially controlled the Sofala gold trade before it was overtaken by Kilwa. It was visited in the 14th century by Ibn Battuta who said that the Sultan was “in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi,” presumably Somali, although he also knew Arabic."

It clearly states Mogadishu once controlled Sofala and I showed you multiple authentic scholary sources stating that Mogadishu was always inhabited and dominated by ethnic Somalis. It also states the ruler of Mogadishu was Barbara origin and I showed you a source that's how ancient and medieval Somalis were referred. That's our ancestors name.

Now I don't know you are ignoring this news but the the Mozambique government is digging gold mines in Sofala. Here: http://www.elmed-rostov.ru/Projects/Pungwe CD/Reports/eng/Others/Trainee Report - Gold Mining.pdf

Here is another source I found telling you Somali merchants from mogadishu establish a colony in Sofala.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fTSqDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT57&dq=somali+established+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjelf-0mcLcAhVmBsAKHfRRAU8Q6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=somali established colony in sofala&f=false

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Now I'm going to be addressing the Ajuran coast and Mudaffar dynasty.

Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran Empire and was always under Ajuran rule. Look at this medieval map of Ajuran Sultanate.

Here is another source telling you Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran and João de Sepúvelda a Portuguese commander tried to conquer Mogadishu but Ajuran silently defeated him and his naval forces through a naval warfare.

In fact, the Mudaffar dynasty was a sub-dynasty of the Garen dynasty. They were Ajuran rulers that only ruled the Mogadishu province. They belong to an Ajuran sub-clan called Moorshe who once dominated Mogadishu but they were driven out by Abgaal. However, the Cadcads weren't kicked out but joined the Hiraab Imamate instead. If Cadcads were the main settlers then they would've been driven out so really you're not making any sense here, Grant.

Mudaffar dynasty only ruled Mogadishu which was an Ajuran province and the dynasty was part of the Ajuran stock. They were not Yemeni, it's a complete lie because Ajuran is a Somali clan, not a Yemeni clan.

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&dq=Ajuran+Imamate&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkncnpksLcAhVOecAKHbT6C6AQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate&f=false

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. I don't know why you love distorting Somali history but Somalis have the richset maritime history in Africa. They are seafarers, traders, merchants and shipbuilders and there are so many documents for it. I mean the model ship Oman used called Beden originated from the 13 ancient Somali city-states until Azanians and southern Arabia copied us. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beden

Did you know Ajuran and Adal had their own model ships?

Ajuran did build ships. They had a powerful navy and done naval expedition as far as southeast Asia with their Ottoman allies to weaken Portuguese influence in the Indian Ocean.

Here is the model of Ajuran boat and it was called Ajuran markab.

Heck, did you know Ajuran protected the Ottoman trading boats? Read the source below.

Lastly, look at this map carefully. It shows you where Somali ships reached and established settlements at.

You post the same misinterpreted crap every time. Just because it's on a map doesn't mean it's so. And Ibn Batuta was not describing Somali dhaqan. Give it up.

 

[Factz]

You post the same misinterpreted crap every time. Just because it's on a map doesn't mean it's so. And Ibn Batuta was not describing Somali dhaqan. Give it up.

You don't have to be intellectually dishonest. None of them was misinterpreted, read it back again. Ibn Battuta met the Somali ruler who was dark skin and spoke his native tongue (Somali) and was part of Barbara origin and I showed you a source how Barbara was an identification for ancient and medieval Somalis. West Asians aren't dark skin and the language is not native to Africa. You need to give up on your lying theories. He also said from Zeila to Mogadishu was Bilad Al-Berber lands. I also provided a source debunking West Asian enclaves in Mogadishu with the medieval scholar called Qadi who clearly stated Mogadishu and the Benadir coast was dominated by dark skin natives that spoke their own language. He also stated they were not Arab, Persian or Indian enclaves.

You need to accept that you're wrong sometimes and move on learning.

 

[esmailxxx]

He wants to give credit to the minorities which were our slaves instead,clearly having an agenda against ethnic somalis

 

[catwoman]

Lol! Ding ding round 200646840