Somali Architecture Thread

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Merka, Somalia Italiana:

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

The Hamar popo 101 years before the city they patrolled went into chaos

 

[Factz]

Engraving of Berbera, including a Mosque and fort during the 19th century.

19th-century engraving of Berbera

19th-century fort in Berbera constructed by Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh.

Ruins of Bulhar.

Pre-colonial Hargeisa.

19th-century engraving of Zeila.

Zeila during Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh rule.

Historical citadel ruins in Gondershe during the Ajuran period.

 

[error]

 

[Pipit]

Sheikh isaaq’s tomb

 

[Lord of Warshiekh]

Does anyone have photos of the hydraulic pumps and cisterns of the Ajuran?

 

[imperialist]

Somali Ambassador to china.
View attachment 84470

That's a habashi slave who became a commander if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Pipit]

That's a habashi slave who became a commander if I'm not mistaken.

Since he came from southern Ethiopia he was most likely Oromo

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Sheikh isaaq’s tomb
View attachment 84493

It's located in Maydh Sanaag

 

[Grant]

Engraving of Berbera, including a Mosque and fort during the 19th century.

19th-century engraving of Berbera

19th-century fort in Berbera constructed by Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh.

Ruins of Bulhar.

Pre-colonial Hargeisa.

19th-century engraving of Zeila.

Zeila during Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh rule.

Historical citadel ruins in Gondershe during the Ajuran period.

The shot of Hargeisa was taken by Peace Corps Volunteer Jim Alinder, who was photography advisor to the Ministry of Information in Mogadishu, Somalia from 1964 to 1966. It is not pre-colonial.

http://www.jimalinder.com/portfolios/somalia.htm

 

[Grant]

Somali Ambassador to china.
View attachment 84470

https://www.google.com/search?q=jam...QIHS5ODPoQ9QEwA3oECAsQCA#imgrc=_n9dVecvmpnfnM:

Left: Jamal-ud-Din Yaqut, confidante of Razia Sultana
Right: General Hosh Muhammad Sheedi or Hoshu Sheedi

Afro-Pakistanis or Sheedi (شیدی‬‎) are an ethnic group in Pakistan who are descendants of Africans soldiers and slaves. The first Africans are said to have settled in Sindh after 712 AD, however, most Africans arrived in Makran and Sindh during 16th century slave trade. Pakistan has the larg... See More

 

[Lord of Warshiekh]

https://www.google.com/search?q=jamal+ud+din+yaqut&sa=X&biw=1920&bih=937&sxsrf=ACYBGNQ50AmVN4kYcB16iaLOaEnsnj6nCA:1576355407809&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=_n9dVecvmpnfnM%3A%2CBHaZDL9kpByHAM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ8JTDFNGJfGJThq9eZQJIAfYA_Tg&ved=2ahUKEwik6_zA_bXmAhWEFjQIHS5ODPoQ9QEwA3oECAsQCA#imgrc=_n9dVecvmpnfnM:

Left: Jamal-ud-Din Yaqut, confidante of Razia Sultana
Right: General Hosh Muhammad Sheedi or Hoshu Sheedi

Afro-Pakistanis or Sheedi (شیدی‬‎) are an ethnic group in Pakistan who are descendants of Africans soldiers and slaves. The first Africans are said to have settled in Sindh after 712 AD, however, most Africans arrived in Makran and Sindh during 16th century slave trade. Pakistan has the larg... See More

Yeah, imperialist told me. I saw it from a historium and was a little skeptical because it did not look like art from the Ming Dynasty.

 

[Grant]

http://museums.bristol.gov.uk/details.php?irn=324638

This is another view of Gondershe, which has not been excavated and whose attribution to the Ajuraan is unproven and doubtful. Notice that the land side is also fortified. While the port of Gondershe can only accomodate boats with a very shallow draft, Ajuraan trade was exported through the Muzzaffar port of Mogadishu in full-sized dhows. This needs a fuller explanation. It seems likely that whoever built this did not control the shore and may also have been fearful of ships with a deep draft.

It's still a question mark.

 

[Factz]

http://museums.bristol.gov.uk/details.php?irn=324638

This is another view of Gondershe, which has not been excavated and whose attribution to the Ajuraan is unproven and doubtful. Notice that the land side is also fortified. While the port of Gondershe can only accomodate boats with a very shallow draft, Ajuraan trade was exported through the Muzzaffar port of Mogadishu in full-sized dhows. This needs a fuller explanation. It seems likely that whoever built this did not control the shore and may also have been fearful of ships with a deep draft.

It's still a question mark.

Ajuran controlled the entirety of the Benadir coast, I have already given you the sources that these were attributed by Ajuran engineers and you have disregarded those authors I have shown you so, therefore, I won't go through them with you again and proving you wrong again like before. I have no time for your nonsense.

This is from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar the one you quote one even agrees on Ajuran controlling the whole Benadir coast and southern Somalia interior from Mareeg to Kenyan frontier.

Even admits the ruins found in southern Somalia including the coast was attributed by Ajuran engineers.

The link you posted only talks about the fort. Doesn't dispute anything. You're just making things up again and arguing over facts. Like I said again, don't waste my time.

Last thing I would like to refute when you said Ajuran only used Mogadishu as their lucrative trade when actually it commenced control all over southern Somali coastal cities and a lucrative trade across the sea.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...mAhVFh1wKHU40C5sQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Grant]

Ajuran controlled the entirety of the Benadir coast, I have already given you the sources that these were attributed by Ajuran engineers and you have disregarded those authors I have shown you so, therefore, I won't go through them with you again and proving you wrong again like before. I have no time for your nonsense.

This is from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar the one you quote one even agrees on Ajuran controlling the whole Benadir coast and southern Somalia interior from Mareeg to Kenyan frontier.

Even admits the ruins found in southern Somalia including the coast was attributed by Ajuran engineers.

The link you posted only talks about the fort. Doesn't dispute anything. You're just making things up again and arguing over facts. Like I said again, don't waste my time.

Last thing I would like to refute when you said Ajuran only used Mogadishu as their lucrative trade when actually it commenced control all over southern Somali coastal cities and a lucrative trade across the sea.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...mAhVFh1wKHU40C5sQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

We have been through this before. Njoku is still out of his depth and totally lacking in detail. He is another encyclopedist who has read too much Wiki.

Instead, try Lee V. Cassanelli, The Shaping of Somali Society, pp. 84-118.

The Ajuraan emerge as a Hawiyya subclan "state" at Qallaafo about 1300. By 1500 they had formed an alliance with other Hawiyya clans against the Borana and Warday and established themselves on a line of wells on the lower Shabelle plain. They were an "hydraulic" empire in the sense that they taxed access to the Shabelle river water and the wells. They lost power as more Hawiyya clans and the Rahanwiin moved south and east and their old alliances fell apart. The Hiraab and Yaquub Abgaal take Mogadishu about 1590. By 1650-1700 the el Amir, soon to be replaced by the Biimaal, had taken Marka; and before 1750 the Geledi and Wacdaan had driven the Silcis, probably another Ajuraan successor, from Afgoi. The Hiraab, themselves Hawiyya, killed the last Imaam of the Ajuraan at Ceel Cawl in 1686.

It should be obvious that there were large areas the Ajuraan never controlled, and others they controlled only when they had an army or raiding party in the field. The Hiraab, Biimaal, Abgaal, Geledi, etc. came after them; and Himyar, the Shirazis and others who had traditions of building in stone, came before them. So there is no reason to automatically suppose Gondershe was Ajuraan. In fact, it seems unlikely. The Ajuraan were unknown to the Portuguese and all Muslims outside the Horn. There is no archival record of them anywhere. They supplied, but did not control, the Indian Ocean trade. They did not have ships.



Notice that this map (p.91) is circa 1650:

 

[Factz]

We have been through this before. Njoku is still out of his depth and totally lacking in detail. He is another encyclopedist who has read too much Wiki.

Instead, try Lee V. Cassanelli, The Shaping of Somali Society, pp. 84-118.

The Ajuraan emerge as a Hawiyya subclan "state" at Qallaafo about 1300. By 1500 they had formed an alliance with other Hawiyya clans against the Borana and Warday and established themselves on a line of wells on the lower Shabelle plain. They were an "hydraulic" empire in the sense that they taxed access to the Shabelle river water and the wells. They lost power as more Hawiyya clans and the Rahanwiin moved south and east and their old alliances fell apart. The Hiraab and Yaquub Abgaal take Mogadishu about 1590. By 1650-1700 the el Amir, soon to be replaced by the Biimaal, had taken Marka; and before 1750 the Geledi and Wacdaan had driven the Silcis, probably another Ajuraan successor, from Afgoi. The Hiraab, themselves Hawiyya, killed the last Imaam of the Ajuraan at Ceel Cawl in 1686.

It should be obvious that there were large areas the Ajuraan never controlled, and others they controlled only when they had an army or raiding party in the field. The Hiraab, Biimaal, Abgaal, Geledi, etc. came after them; and Himyar, the Shirazis and others who had traditions of building in stone, came before them. So there is no reason to automatically suppose Gondershe was Ajuraan. In fact, it seems unlikely. The Ajuraan were unknown to the Portuguese and all Muslims outside the Horn. There is no archival record of them anywhere. They supplied, but did not control, the Indian Ocean trade. They did not have ships.



Notice that this map (p.91) is circa 1650:

View attachment 84568

Just more pile of horse shit. You not convincing anybody.

These are your opinions. Nobody fucking cares.

Cassanelli only records traditions, they are not historical. I've told you about this before. According to the Ajuran tradition, they ruled the entire southern Somalia including the coast. They successfully defeated the Portuguese and had ships and were behind many architectures in southern Somalia during the medieval period history and that includes Gondershe.

Njoku is a historian with PhD so he knows what he's talking about. See what I mean? You like to discredit other historians once you realize they don't agree with your bullshit. You also ignored Mohamed Haji Mukhtar who also went align with facts. He not only stated Ajuran controlled the Benadir coast and the trade as well. He also stated they were behind many constructions in southern Somalia during the medieval period.

According to Mohamed Haji Mukhtar again said Ajuran ruled the Hawiye, Rahanweyn, Madanle and Benadiri even went far to mention their territories they controlled so with simple logic, they ruled the entirety of the south region of Somalia.

Let's mention Abdullahi Abdurahman another historian who has PhD in history. He made a map for Ajuran Sultanate.

Given the credits of Ajuran Sultanate.

That's basic history above and since you disagree with that. You're hopeless and just realize you're the only one with that mentality. By the way, I agree with these historians since they don't dispute with each other when it comes to historical facts so don't bother replying your horse shit. You've already lost the debate and you won't convince anybody.

Notice how Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Abdullahi Abdurahman and Njoku agree on this matter when it comes to Ajuran territory control, trade control and give them their architectural credits and their credits for successfully resisting the Portuguese? I have nothing else to say.

Have a nice day.

 

[Grant]

Just more pile of horse shit. You not convincing anybody.

These are your opinions. Nobody fucking cares.

Cassanelli only records traditions, they are not historical. I've told you about this before. According to the Ajuran tradition, they ruled the entire southern Somalia including the coast. They successfully defeated the Portuguese and had ships and were behind many architectures in southern Somalia during the medieval period history and that includes Gondershe.

Njoku is a historian with PhD so he knows what he's talking about. See what I mean? You like to discredit other historians once you realize they don't agree with your bullshit. You also ignored Mohamed Haji Mukhtar who also went align with facts. He not only stated Ajuran controlled the Benadir coast and the trade as well. He also stated they were behind many constructions in southern Somalia during the medieval period.

According to Mohamed Haji Mukhtar again said Ajuran ruled the Hawiye, Rahanweyn, Madanle and Benadiri even went far to mention their territories they controlled so with simple logic, they ruled the entirety of the south region of Somalia.

Let's mention Abdullahi Abdurahman another historian who has PhD in history. He made a map for Ajuran Sultanate.

Given the credits of Ajuran Sultanate.

That's basic history above and since you disagree with that. You're hopeless and just realize you're the only one with that mentality. By the way, I agree with these historians since they don't dispute with each other when it comes to historical facts so don't bother replying your horse shit. You've already lost the debate and you won't convince anybody.

Notice how Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Abdullahi Abdurahman and Njoku agree on this matter when it comes to Ajuran territory control, trade control and give them their architectural credits and their credits for successfully resisting the Portuguese? I have nothing else to say.

Have a nice day.

We have been through all this before.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somalias-southern-coast.63258/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somali-penunsila-used-to-be-called-new-arabia.61485/

As I pointed out in Maay vs Maxaa, Baadiyow makes up his own stuff to please himself. He says the Circumnavigation was written by the Red Sea! (the Periplus Maris Erythraei). His sequence on Mir Ali Bey is a bad joke. He confuses Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s and ignores the fact that Mir Ali and all of his ships and men were captured by the Portuguese within three months of entering the Indian Ocean the second time. He also fails to mention that Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon.

Hamar and the Banaadir were defended by the Muzzaffar, not the Ajuraan. Baraawe was defended by the Tunni, who failed. The lighthouse at Baraawe is Portuguese. See the note below the picture.


Nobody mentions the Ajuraan, who also failed to protect Baraawe, which was theoretically under their protection.. The Banaadir remained under Portuguese seige or control until the Omanis took it from them permanently about 1730. Strongly suggest you read this:

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9780203019139.ch3

Now, be done. I have other things to do.

 

[Factz]

We have been through all this before.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somalias-southern-coast.63258/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somali-penunsila-used-to-be-called-new-arabia.61485/

As I pointed out in Maay vs Maxaa, Baadiyow makes up his own stuff to please himself. He says the Circumnavigation was written by the Red Sea! (the Periplus Maris Erythraei). His sequence on Mir Ali Bey is a bad joke. He confuses Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s and ignores the fact that Mir Ali and all of his ships and men were captured by the Portuguese within three months of entering the Indian Ocean. He also fails to mention that Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon.

Hamar and the Banaadir were defended by the Muzzaffar, not the Ajuraan. Baraawe was defended by the Tunni, who failed. The lighthouse at Baraawe is Portuguese. See the note below the picture.


Nobody mentions the Ajuraan, who also failed to protect Baraawe, which was theoretically under their protection.. The Banaadir remained under Portuguese seige or control until the Omanis took it from them permanently about 1730. Strongly suggest you read this:

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9780203019139.ch3

Now, be done. I have other things to do.

Again ignoring Mohamed Haji Mukhtar when he goes align with Abdullahi Abdurahman and Njoku on Ajuran territorial rule then you talk about another subject you disagree on with Abdullahi Abdurahman and says he made things up when I can mention many historians that say the same thing he does. This is widely accepted in the history community. You're a joke Grant, that's all I can say.

You cannot separate Muzzaffar and Ajuran. They are both interlinked. The Muzzaffar dynasty was an Ajuran dynasty that governed Mogadishu. Moorshe, a sub-clan of Ajuran dominated Mogadishu before the fall of Ajuran Sultanate. Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran Sultanate.

Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran. I don't know why you keep separating them.

You're a liar. According to Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley who both have PhD in history stated during the Ajuran rule of the Benadir coast. It remained free from Portuguese rule and influence.

The picture you posted about Barawa was constructed by Ajuran engineers. It was a defensive tower made for a lookout against the pirates and foreign powers.

The Ajuran actually won the battle of Barawa against the Portuguese.

I know it pisses you off I quote historians. Sorry, not sorry.

Now goodbye and go do your other things.

 

[Grant]

Again ignoring Mohamed Haji Mukhtar when he goes align with Abdullahi Abdurahman and Njoku on Ajuran territorial rule then you talk about another subject you disagree on with Abdullahi Abdurahman and says he made things up when I can mention many historians that say the same thing he does. This is widely accepted in the history community. You're a joke Grant, that's all I can say.

You cannot separate Muzzaffar and Ajuran. They are both interlinked. The Muzzaffar dynasty was an Ajuran dynasty that governed Mogadishu. Moorshe, a sub-clan of Ajuran dominated Mogadishu before the fall of Ajuran Sultanate. Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran Sultanate.

Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran. I don't know why you keep separating them.

You're a liar. According to Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley who both have PhD in history stated during the Ajuran rule of the Benadir coast. It remained free from Portuguese rule and influence.

The picture you posted about Barawa was constructed by Ajuran engineers. It was a defensive tower made for a lookout against the pirates and foreign powers.

The Ajuran actually won the battle of Barawa against the Portuguese.

I know it pisses you off I quote historians. Sorry, not sorry.

Now goodbye and go do your other things.

Dumper and Stanley are editors of an encyclopedia, which might be useful if it had footnotes, which it doesn't. Cities of the Middle East and North Africa gets a two star rating on Amazon, probably because it is in clear contradiction to the scholarly sources. You are slow. We have been through this several times before.

A Phd is only as good as what you do with it.

 

[Factz]

Dumper and Stanley are editors of an encyclopedia, which might be useful if it had footnotes, which it doesn't. Cities of the Middle East and North Africa gets a two star rating on Amazon, probably because it is in clear contradiction to the scholarly sources. You are slow. We have been through this several times before.

A Phd is only as good as what you do with it.

Dumper and Stanley are both historians, therefore their claims are verified. Their views go align with Mohamed Haji Mukhtar who you keep ignoring including Abdullahi Abdurahman, Njoku and other historians I have quoted from who all have scholarly research. You're discrediting them with baseless opinions and nobody gives a damn.

You quote Cassanelli who only records traditions. That is not historical. Now get lost.