Somali E-Y18629 is a Bronze Age lineage from Egypt/Sudan

[Aurelian]

What, 3500 years ago? As far as i know, our ancestors left north east sudan south east egypt about 9200 years ago

 

[tariq moses]

What, 3500 years ago? As far as i know, our ancestors left north east sudan south east egypt about 9200 years ago

Horners have PPNB ancestry, so it has to be Neolithic/Post Neolithic

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Shimbiris

Is it possible that the Kulubnarti data pertains to the Beja of Lower 'Nubia' instead of the NS speaking Nubians?

People keep talking about how the 'Nubians' were language shifted Cushitics, but no one has been able to point to a time period or the events that led up to this apparent shift. I'm of the opinion that with the sole exception of the Beja, Sudan has always been a Nilo-Saharan stronghold.

Lower Nubia was never yours and dna proves that modern and Ancient Nubians harbour massive amounts of Cushitic ancestry.Nubians both Medieval and Modern carry more Cushitic ancestry then Turkic speaking language shifted Anatolians carry Medieval Turkic ancestry.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

What, 3500 years ago? As far as i know, our ancestors left north east sudan south east egypt about 9200 years ago

Somalis who carry the lineage specified above (vast majority of Somali-speaking males) entered the Horn during the Bronze Age somewhere in Egypt or on the periphery of Egypt.The evidence and the basal Egyptian samples in the various branches related to us and upstream of us just proves it tbh

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

@Shimbiris There seems to be Middle Eastern crops and agricultural practices vocab in both East Cushitic and Northern Agaw Cushitic, words such as an East Cushitic term for barley and ofcourse the use of the plow that pre-existed Ethio-Semitic that both Horner East Cushites and Northern Agaw speakers share that the South Cushites lack.Perhaps these innovations were migrations from the North brought by lineages such as ours.

 

[Shimbiris]

@Shimbiris There seems to be Middle Eastern crops and agricultural practices vocab in both East Cushitic and Northern Agaw Cushitic, words such as an East Cushitic term for barley and ofcourse the use of the plow that pre-existed Ethio-Semitic that both Horner East Cushites and Northern Agaw speakers share that the South Cushites lack.Perhaps these innovations were migrations from the North brought by lineages such as ours.

You're reminding me of somethings I read about a decade ago like Stuart Munro-Hay's book on Aksum:

Evidently the arrival of Sabaean influences does not represent the beginning of Ethiopian
civilisation. For a long time different peoples had been interacting through population
movements, warfare, trade and intermarriage in the Ethiopian region, resulting in a
predominance of peoples speaking languages of the Afro-Asiatic family. The main
branches represented were the Cushitic and the Semitic. Semiticized Agaw peoples are
thought to have migrated from south-eastern Eritrea possibly as early as 2000BC,
bringing their `proto-Ethiopic' language, ancestor of Ge`ez and the other Ethiopian
Semitic languages, with them; and these and other groups had already developed specific
cultural and linguistic identities by the time any Sabaean influences arrived. Features
such as dressed stone building, writing and iron-working may have been introduced by
Sabaeans, but words for `plough' and other agricultural vocabulary are apparently of
Agaw origin in Ethiopian Semitic languages, indicating that the techniques of food-
production were not one of the Arabian imports. Clark (1988) even suggests that wheat,
barley, and the plough may have been introduced from Egypt via Punt. Some of the
graffiti found in eastern Eritrea include names apparently neither South Arabian nor
Ethiopian, perhaps reflecting the continued existence of some older ethnic groups in the
same cultural matrix. Various stone-age sites and rock-paintings attest to these early
Ethiopians in Eritrea and Tigray. At Matara and Yeha, for example, archaeologists have
distinguished phases represented by pottery types which seem to owe nothing to South
Arabia, but do have some Sudanese affinities. The Italian archaeologist Rodolfo
Fattovich, who has particularly interested himself in this study, has suggested that the
pre-Aksumite culture might owe something to Nubia, specifically to C— group/Kerma
influences, and later on to Meroë/Alodia (Fattovich 1977, 1978, 1989). Worsening
ecological conditions in the savanna/Sahel belt might have induced certain peoples to
move from plains and lowlands up to the plateau in the second half of the second
millenium BC (Clark 1976), bringing with them certain cultural traditions. Evidence for
early trade activity to regions across the Red Sea from eastern Sudan and Ethiopia at
about this time has been noted by Zarins (1988), with reference to the obsidian trade.
Extremely interesting results have lately come from work in the Gash Delta on the
Ethiopo-Sudanese borderland, indicating the existence of a complex society there in the
late 3rd-early 2nd millenium BC (Fattovich 1989: 21); possibly the location of the land of
Punt there reinforces this suggestion (Kitchen 1971; Fattovich 1988: 2, 7).

- source

In fact, some old archaeologists, as you can see above, used to drive the time-frame for ancient Yemeni influences up to 2000 BCE because I guess they figured the agricultural and civilizational influences already present must have come from South-Arabia rather than the more obvious Sudan. Weirdly enough, that 2000 BCE time-frame aligns well with the TMRCA of 3600ybp (1600 BCE) with the Egyptian under E-Y17859 and the TMRCA with the Palestinian under E-Z813 of 4300ybp (2300 BCE).

And I'm reminded of this model:

The most telling thing about this model for me is how the Somalis completely favor the Ancient Egyptian samples while the Agaws have a bit more of the AE stuff than the Habeshas do (the only doozey are Beta-Israels). There might seriously be something to this, walaal. Let's be honest. The idea of an earlier "Caucasian/Mediterranean" (now known better as Iran-Chalcolithic and Jordan-Early-Bronze-Age elements) carrying migration isn't new and is something Lank and myself have been touting for over half a decade just based on things like ADMIXTURE runs:

Using Somalis as a proxy: The second attempt

Over a year ago I made a post where I essentially took Somalis and tried to run-down, based on data from Shriner et al. 2014 and Hodgson ...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

Nice to see it possibly being vindicated now by Y-DNA. I'm focused on some other things nowadays but I'll try to do some digging on when the earliest evidence of things like copper, tin, arsenic and bronze are in Ethiopia. So far I mostly just see a lot of talk about the Iron-Age which seems to have clearly come with the ancient Yemenis.

 

[Manafesto]

What, 3500 years ago? As far as i know, our ancestors left north east sudan south east egypt about 9200 years ago

Damn, it took them thousand and thousand of years for them to travel from Sudan to horn, they must been walking with no shoes or stoped at every tuulo to marry the best looking Qalanjo.

It took only two months for my cousin to travel from Bossaso to Belgium and through Sudan/Libya, we were thinking he was taking his sweet time and could have did it in a month.

 

[El Nino]

So our ancestors migrated out of Africa, saw some bullshit and then decided to come right back. After while they decided to migrate again, this time staying on the continent. This is how we cushitics came to the horn and east Africa.

 

[Nilotic]

Lower Nubia was never yours and dna proves that modern and Ancient Nubians harbour massive amounts of Cushitic ancestry.Nubians both Medieval and Modern carry more Cushitic ancestry then Turkic speaking language shifted Anatolians carry Medieval Turkic ancestry.

I think I made it clear that 'Upper Nubia' was always Nilo-Saharan and have not been concerned about 'Lower Nubia' in my exchanges with others. The admixture event that transpired in 'Lower Nubia' in 200 BC doesn't concern me at all.

I only mentioned the possibility of Lower Nubia being Beja-like rather than Nubian in light of the fact that the Kulubnarti population are not considered directly ancestral to modern Nubians.

 

[tariq moses]

So our ancestors migrated out of Africa, saw some bullshit and then decided to come right back.

Eurasian ancestry could have split off in Africa, so back migration may be over exaggerated

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

I think I made it clear that 'Upper Nubia' was always Nilo-Saharan and have not been concerned about 'Lower Nubia' in my exchanges with others. The admixture event that transpired in 'Lower Nubia' in 200 BC doesn't concern me at all.

I only mentioned the possibility of Lower Nubia being Beja-like rather than Nubian in light of the fact that the Kulubnarti population are not considered directly ancestral to modern Nubians.

Modern Nubians mostly descend from the Medieval samples with additional Arab & Nilo-Saharan ancestry.They are very much not that different from their ancestors, the same can't be said of the Sudanese Arabs tho.

Either way this thread is about this bronze age Upper Egyptian or Northern Eastern Desert lineage that dominates Somalis today.

@Shimbiris It seems the Habesha,Beja & Northern Sudanese generally fall under E-FGC14382 which has 4400 ybp tmrca with this lineage splitting off E-Y28701 which they share Sahelians.E-Z813 was probably still far North before entering the Horn. E-Z21175 could have been earlier wave of E-Z813 while E-Y17859 split in two in modern Egypt:

1.Somali E-Y18629 heads south between 3600 & 2600 ybp
2.Egyptian E-BY8075 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp?chromosome=Y&snp=BY8075) stays put and expands into Sinai/Northern Saudi Arabia

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

@Shimbiris @Apollo Where do you think this increased Nilotic affinity compared to other Horners comes from? The only population if their Arabian admix was not present that would genetically resemble us Somaloid speakers (Somalis,Maay,Rendille etc) would be the Afars

 

[tariq moses]

The only population if their Arabian admix was not present that would genetically resemble us Somaloid speakers (Somalis,Maay,Rendille etc) would be the Afars

The Afars I've seen don't look Nilote shifted compared to Habeshas, the proportion of their Nilote to Natufian/Taforalt composite is more similar to Habeshas than Somalis

 

[El Nino]

Eurasian ancestry could have split off in Africa, so back migration may be over exaggerated

I meant our predominant Y-Dna as it originated in Africa.

 

[World]

Lower Nubia was never yours and dna proves that modern and Ancient Nubians harbour massive amounts of Cushitic ancestry.Nubians both Medieval and Modern carry more Cushitic ancestry then Turkic speaking language shifted Anatolians carry Medieval Turkic ancestry.

I thought that too but it appears that modern Nubians are a recent mix of nilotics and arabs, admixture dates back to Islam. @Nilotic presented a strong argument in a thread a while ago.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

I thought that too but it appears that modern Nubians are a recent mix of nilotics and arabs, admixture dates back to Islam. @Nilotic presented a strong argument in a thread a while ago.

Not true at all for the modern Nubians.They are primarily descendants of Christian Nubians with minor additional Nilo-Saharan ancestry and Arabian ancestry.

Target: Nubian_Halfawi
Distance: 1.5416% / 0.01541644
78.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.0 Yemeni_Mahra
6.6 Dinka

Target: Nubian_Danagla
Distance: 1.0448% / 0.01044751
74.2 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.8 Dinka
10.0 Yemeni_Mahra

Target: Nubian_Mahas
Distance: 0.8144% / 0.00814372
75.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
12.4 Dinka
12.2 Yemeni_Mahra


Here are the Sudanese Arabs:
Target: Sudanese_Arab_Batahin
Distance: 0.7569% / 0.00756915
43.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
40.4 Yemeni_Mahra
12.6 Dinka
3.6 Kenya_Pastoral

Target: Sudanese_Arab_Ja'alin
Distance: 0.7583% / 0.00758290
61.2 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
21.0 Yemeni_Mahra
17.0 Dinka
0.8 Kenya_Pastoral

Target: Sudanese_Arab_Shaigia
Distance: 0.9750% / 0.00975000
64.6 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
19.8 Dinka
14.6 Yemeni_Mahra
1.0 Kenya_Pastoral



Anyways this thread isn't about the Nubian and their origins as it is very unlikely this lineage found among Somalis had anything to do with them.Sudanese Nubians/Sudani Arabs are closer to Habesha then they are to us.We are linked with samples from Upper Egypt and the adjacent deserts in the Eastern Desert,Sinai,Northern Hijaz

 

[Nilotic]

I thought that too but it appears that modern Nubians are a recent mix of nilotics and arabs, admixture dates back to Islam. @Nilotic presented a strong argument in a thread a while ago.

I don't think that un-admixed 'Nubians' were Nilotics like the Dinka-Nuer, but I do think they were more like the Darfurians-Chadians before the admixture event that started in 200 BC.

The Nubians, the Kushites of Meroe, Nara-Kunama and the Darfurians-Chadians all have their origins in Wadi Howar -- and that's precisely what the linguistic evidence and historical account points to.

 

[World]

Not true at all for the modern Nubians.They are primarily descendants of Christian Nubians with minor additional Nilo-Saharan ancestry and Arabian ancestry.

Target: Nubian_Halfawi
Distance: 1.5416% / 0.01541644
78.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.0 Yemeni_Mahra
6.6 Dinka

Target: Nubian_Danagla
Distance: 1.0448% / 0.01044751
74.2 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.8 Dinka
10.0 Yemeni_Mahra

Target: Nubian_Mahas
Distance: 0.8144% / 0.00814372
75.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
12.4 Dinka
12.2 Yemeni_Mahra


Here are the Sudanese Arabs:
Target: Sudanese_Arab_Batahin
Distance: 0.7569% / 0.00756915
43.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
40.4 Yemeni_Mahra
12.6 Dinka
3.6 Kenya_Pastoral

Target: Sudanese_Arab_Ja'alin
Distance: 0.7583% / 0.00758290
61.2 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
21.0 Yemeni_Mahra
17.0 Dinka
0.8 Kenya_Pastoral

Target: Sudanese_Arab_Shaigia
Distance: 0.9750% / 0.00975000
64.6 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
19.8 Dinka
14.6 Yemeni_Mahra
1.0 Kenya_Pastoral



Anyways this thread isn't about the Nubian and their origins as it is very unlikely this lineage found among Somalis had anything to do with them.Sudanese Nubians/Sudani Arabs are closer to Habesha then they are to us.We are linked with samples from Upper Egypt and the adjacent deserts in the Eastern Desert,Sinai,Northern Hijaz

“Assuming that the Nubian population is a mixture of an incoming Eurasian (TSI is used as a proxy) group and a resident group that is genetically similar to the current day Nilotes (Nuer is used as a proxy), first contact is dated using patterns of LD-decay [34] to roughly 56 generations ago for the Danagla (54.45 ± 10.34, Z = 5.26437) and the Mahas (58.35 ± 12.2, Z = 4.78402); the Halfawieen have received Eurasian admixture later, around 19 generations ago (19.31 ± 3.81, Z = 5.05949, S7 Table, Fig 3C). Assuming a generation time of 30 years, the admixture dates for Danagla and Mahas predate the Arab expansion in the 7th century, and may suggest that the migrations and admixture predate Islamic conquest. However, the confidence intervals overlap with the 7th century, and these admixture estimates largely coincide with the Arab expansion into the northeast of Sudan. It is known from historic sources that Arabic groups encountered the Nubians first in the 7th century, and were held back from advancing further into the Sahel until the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316AD [36] and the collapse of the Kingdom of Makuria. This is consistent with the later date for the admixture into Halfawieen and the Arabic populations of Sudan.”

Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations

Author summary Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal...

journals.plos.org

Anyway, what I find interesting is that according to the above source, Somalis and Bejas shared ancestry dates to 1770 years ago for the Hadendowa and 2040-2250 years ago for Beni Amer. Not that long ago.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

I don't think that un-admixed 'Nubians' were Nilotics like the Dinka-Nuer, but I do think they were more like the Darfurians-Chadians before the admixture event that started in 200 BC.

The Nubians, the Kushites of Meroe, Nara-Kunama and the Darfurians-Chadians all have their origins in Wadi Howar -- and that's precisely what the linguistic evidence and historical account points to.

Fam go open a thread on that elsewhere and maybe we can debate there.Stay on topic

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

“Assuming that the Nubian population is a mixture of an incoming Eurasian (TSI is used as a proxy) group and a resident group that is genetically similar to the current day Nilotes (Nuer is used as a proxy), first contact is dated using patterns of LD-decay [34] to roughly 56 generations ago for the Danagla (54.45 ± 10.34, Z = 5.26437) and the Mahas (58.35 ± 12.2, Z = 4.78402); the Halfawieen have received Eurasian admixture later, around 19 generations ago (19.31 ± 3.81, Z = 5.05949, S7 Table, Fig 3C). Assuming a generation time of 30 years, the admixture dates for Danagla and Mahas predate the Arab expansion in the 7th century, and may suggest that the migrations and admixture predate Islamic conquest. However, the confidence intervals overlap with the 7th century, and these admixture estimates largely coincide with the Arab expansion into the northeast of Sudan. It is known from historic sources that Arabic groups encountered the Nubians first in the 7th century, and were held back from advancing further into the Sahel until the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316AD [36] and the collapse of the Kingdom of Makuria. This is consistent with the later date for the admixture into Halfawieen and the Arabic populations of Sudan.”

Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations

Author summary Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal...

journals.plos.org

Anyway, what I find interesting is that according to the above source, Somalis and Bejas shared ancestry dates to 1770 years ago for the Hadendowa and 2040-2250 years ago for Beni Amer. Not that long ago.

Studies can produce gibberish results all the time.Like for example many studies claim Eurasian ancestry only arrived in the Horn around 1000 BCE which isn't true at all.It seems pretty clear Modern Nubians are descendants of Christian Nubians just like Muslim Egyptians are admixed descendants of Christian Egyptians (Copts)