Somalia and Freedom. How Far Does It Go?

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

What of the Agnostics who believe that their is a God who created them, but they have to many doubts in the prehistoric/modern day religions?
Doesn't Allah punish them in Hellfire for an eternity?

The same principle holds.

Some theologians argue that hell is not eternal because an infinite punishment for a finite number of sins is fundamentally unjust, and because of some ayahs which suggest otherwise. I will have to look them up. Others argue hell is a metaphor, not a real place, because no genuinely humane and compassionate being, let alone the most humane and compassionate, which is how Allah is described, would support torture. I incline to this view. I believe torture is contrary to a civilized outlook, and there is nobody more civilized than Allah.

I don't understand how an agnostic could believe in God though. Isn't the essence of agnosticism that one is undecided about his existence? Perhaps you meant deism? Also, are you the agnostic in question? If so, you need to come to my dugsi for dawah.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Go check:
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2017

Every year the create an index based on a comprehensive study to determine how free s country is

Freedom House is an independent watchdog organization dedicated to the expansion of freedom and democracy around the world.

We analyze the challenges to freedom, advocate for greater political rights and civil liberties, and support frontline activists to defend human rights and promote democratic change. Founded in 1941, Freedom House was the first American organization to champion the advancement of freedom globally.

I support the work of Freedom House. Good people. Are you involved with them?

 

[HuunoHunter]

The same principle holds.

Some theologians argue that hell is not eternal because an infinite punishment for a finite number of sins is fundamentally unjust, and because of some ayahs which suggest otherwise. I will have to look them up. Others argue hell is a metaphor, not a real place, because no genuinely humane and compassionate being, let alone the most humane and compassionate, which is how Allah is described, would support torture. I incline to this view. I believe torture is contrary to a civilized outlook, and there is nobody more civilized than Allah.

I don't understand how an agnostic could believe in God though. Isn't the essence of agnosticism that one is undecided about his existence? Perhaps you meant deism? Also, are you the agnostic in question? If so, you need to come to my dugsi for dawah.

Lmao, I believe in Allah. However I have the same view of you on the context of hell fire being a finite punishment for a finite sin.
Why would the God who proclaims that he is the most just and most merciful punish mere mortals with fire forever and ever?

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Lmao, I believe in Allah. However I have the same view of you on the context of hell fire being a finite punishment for a finite sin.
Why would the God who proclaims that he is the most just and most merciful punish mere mortals with fire forever and ever?

You still need to come to my revered dugsi, agnostic or not. My khutbahs are to die for. So many people have come to Islam because of my beautiful tajweed. I'm hideous to look at, but my voice is divine.

 

[HuunoHunter]

The same principle holds.

Some theologians argue that hell is not eternal because an infinite punishment for a finite number of sins is fundamentally unjust, and because of some ayahs which suggest otherwise. I will have to look them up. Others argue hell is a metaphor, not a real place, because no genuinely humane and compassionate being, let alone the most humane and compassionate, which is how Allah is described, would support torture. I incline to this view. I believe torture is contrary to a civilized outlook, and there is nobody more civilized than Allah.

I don't understand how an agnostic could believe in God though. Isn't the essence of agnosticism that one is undecided about his existence? Perhaps you meant deism? Also, are you the agnostic in question? If so, you need to come to my dugsi for dawah.

I am also in support of Ibn Al-Qayyims stance on the punishment of Hellfire being a cleansing mechanism to prepare for life in Paradise:

أنه ليس في حكمة احكم الحاكمين إن يخلق خلقا يعذبهم ابد الآباد عذابا سرمدا لا نهاية له ولا انقطاع أبدا

It is not befitting the wisdom of the Most Wise of judges that he would create someone to punish forever and ever in eternal punishment without any end or disruption.

However Allah knows best and may he forgive us if we erred.

 

[DR OSMAN]

I think Hell is forever. I think sometimes we simply don't like what we have to hear. If heaven is forever, why is hell not forever? If I can be punished for 1 mistake and get a life sentence without parole or capital punishment and lose my life forever just for one mistake in my life, is that just? The impact is not much different to hell at all. If earth was permanent dwelling place, you think humans would would change a life sentence for one mistake?. Allah knows best though you could get lucky and get a pardon which has happened in jail systems for life sentences in Thailand by the King but it is very rare!!!

I mean I honestly wouldn't want share a space with hitler or the worst killers in history. Will I get upset to see friends and family in hell? If so how can I remain Happy in heaven? I don't know everything im still studying and reading!!!

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I think Hell is forever. I think sometimes we simply don't like what we have to hear. If heaven is forever, why is hell not forever? If I can be punished for 1 mistake and get a life sentence without parole or capital punishment and lose my life forever just for one mistake in my life, is that just? The impact is not much different to hell at all. If earth was permanent dwelling place, you think humans would would change a life sentence for one mistake?. Allah knows best though you could get lucky and get a pardon which has happened in jail systems for life sentences in Thailand by the King but it is very rare!!!

I mean I honestly wouldn't want share a space with hitler or the worst killers in history. Will I get upset to see friends and family in hell? If so how can I remain Happy in heaven? I don't know everything im still studying and reading!!!

Never thought Dr Osman would be so conservative. You're not the SJW I took you for afterall. Your interpretation of Jahannam is even more hardcore than your nemesis Ibn Taymiyyah's student Ibn Qayyim. The latter also believed you could masturbate with a hole in a statute. I wonder what Dr Osman's fatwa is on that delicate subject.

@HuunoHunter

 

[DR OSMAN]

Never thought Dr Osman would be so conservative. You're not the SJW I took you for afterall. Your interpretation of Jahannam is even more hardcore than your nemesis Ibn Taymiyyah's student Ibn Qayyim. The latter also believed you could masturbate with a hole in a statute. I wonder what Dr Osman's fatwa is on that delicate subject.

@HuunoHunter

It's just my view, I could be wrong. It's matter of faith that sort of issue!!! But I don't see it as unjust, what I see as unjust is allowing criminals and good people enjoying the same reward. I honestly don't think hell is not an easy place to go. It isn't as simple as someone who just disbelieves in Allah and they go to hell, it's nothing like that for me. If someone disbelieves and he genuinely has no reason to believe, he followed what is true to him, he wasn't willingly disbelieving so to speak because to willingly disbelieve is to know the truth and then deny it. I hate people who know the truth or what is right and then go against it. Like Murderers, They know it's wrong to kill but they do it anyways.

There are some cases where murderers don't know like the insane, etc but those get pardoned u see, they didn't know any better. I think Allah is the same with people like atheists it's like the insanity plea because they simply didn't know any better or had any reason to believe and they werent lying to themselves either, they used all they had to reach the truth and it didn't end in believing in allah. I honestly can't see how they can be punished because they tried and they didn't see the truth nor did it resonate with them, they were true to themselves!!! Even hypocrites I don't think go to hell either not the ones who are forced to practise islam and inside hide their disbelief, they lost their free will to decide kuwas.

The real disbeliever to me is the one who knows the truth and then rejects it their is simply no excuse for them, the real hypocrites is the one who knows the real islam but conceals it and overlook the truth for ulterior agendas like politics, conquest, wealth, etc but they look outwardly muslim.

 

[DR OSMAN]

If me and bidaar for example starting wearing salafi hat and fooled the people with salafism when we know islam deeper then that, thats the true enemy of islam thats the hypocrite, lowest of low in hell even less then a disbeliever who rejects the truth after they know its true because those are not fooling people at least!!!

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

There are some cases where murderers don't know like the insane, etc but those get pardoned u see, they didn't know any better. I think Allah is the same with people like atheists it's like the insanity plea because they simply didn't know any better or had any reason to believe and they werent lying to themselves either, they used all they had to reach the truth and it didn't end in believing in allah. I honestly can't see how they can be punished because they tried and they didn't see the truth nor did it resonate with them, they were true to themselves!!! Even hypocrites I don't think go to hell either not the ones who are forced to practise islam and inside hide their disbelief, they lost their free will to decide kuwas.

So you think atheists are insane. Yes, that is my view as well. They're not compos mentis.

@ArchBishopofAtheism

 

[DR OSMAN]

So you think atheists are insane. Yes, that is my view as well. They're not compos mentis.

@ArchBishopofAtheism

You can't punish someone in ignorance, he thinks he is doing right. How you going to punish that sxb? but when he knows he isn't doing right anymore and still doing it, come on you do the maths and what would you do with that sort of individual!!!

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

If me and bidaar for example starting wearing salafi hat and fooled the people with salafism when we know islam deeper then that, thats the true enemy of islam thats the hypocrite, lowest of low in hell even less then a disbeliever who rejects the truth after they know its true because those are not fooling people at least!!!

You didn't answer my Q: what is your view on Ibn Qayyim's opinion on masturbating through a hole in a statute?

 

[DR OSMAN]

You didn't answer my Q: what is your view on Ibn Qayyim's opinion on masturbating through a hole in a statute?

Why are you asking such silly questions sxb!!! Does that sit well with reason? it is not religious matter for god sakes!!! Am I going to get sex advice from the imam next? what about how I eat? no even better, tell me how to sleep also!!!

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Why are you asking such silly questions sxb!!! Does that sit well with reason? it is not religious matter for god sakes!!!

Hadith books are full of sex talk, about what you can do and can't do. Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim both said that you can masturbate through a hole in a statute or a material of leather. Look it up.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Hadith books are full of sex talk, about what you can do and can't do. Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim both said that you can masturbate through a hole in a statute or a material of leather. Look it up.

That's easy area to cover, go see a sex therapist not ibn taymiyah or a sheikh. It's not their field of expertise, are we going to listen to ibn taymiyah on how to build roads also if he spoke about it!!!

All these little things your pointing out can be slammed as soon as secularism is applied. It removes all non religious matters and says sorry our sheikh were misguided in the past, goodbye to all those texts!!!

 

[DR OSMAN]

That's easy area to cover, go see a sex therapist not ibn taymiyah or a sheikh. It's not their field of expertise, are we going to listen to ibn taymiyah on how to build roads also if he spoke about it!!!

All these little things your pointing out can be slammed as soon as secularism is applied. It removes all non religious matters and says sorry our sheikh were misguided in the past, goodbye to all those texts!!!

It makes no sense the prophet even according to the hadith always sought the experts in their area, he never gave advice on military strategy, he saw salman al farsi and he dealt with that and implemented military strategy and tactics then you have other hadiths which say he is playing a doctor role and providing medicine advice of camel urine. That's why it's safe to assume we will only accept the prophet on religious matter for islam, praying, fasting, allah, and everything regarding that but anything secular we will not accept.

I honestly think a-lot of the things in there in the hadith was added for political motives, you have to remember these people were under caliphates who monitored their hadith gathering, just like u mentioned how the saudis sacked all those imams. It was even more worse probably back in the caliphate age. They have the prophet saying things like ahlul sunnah jama'ah or the leader must be quraish, when none of that existed in his time, it's clear their was anti shia rhetoric and some responses to challenges from non quraish tribes for leadership like abbasids in there and I am certain the caliph would give it the green-light to be included. I am sure they 'siphoned' through it and approved what they want in there and not allow what is bad for them.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

That's easy area to cover, go see a sex therapist not ibn taymiyah or a sheikh. It's not their field of expertise, are we going to listen to ibn taymiyah on how to build roads also if he spoke about it!!!

I'm on the phone to my therapist right now. Gotta run. I will talk to u later.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

It makes no sense the prophet even according to the hadith always sought the experts in their area, he never gave advice on military strategy, he saw salman al farsi and he dealt with that and implemented military strategy and tactics then you have other hadiths which say he is playing a doctor role and providing medicine advice of camel urine. That's why it's safe to assume we will only accept the prophet on religious matter for islam, praying, fasting, allah, and everything regarding that but anything secular we will not accept.

I honestly think a-lot of the things in there in the hadith was added for political motives, you have to remember these people were under caliphates who monitored their hadith gathering, just like u mentioned how the saudis sacked all those imams. It was even more worse probably back in the caliphate age. They have the prophet saying things like ahlul sunnah jama'ah or the leader must be quraish, when none of that existed in his time, it's clear their was anti shia rhetoric and some responses to challenges from non quraish tribes for leadership like abbasids in there and I am certain the caliph would give it the green-light to be included. I am sure they 'siphoned' through it and approved what they want in there and not allow what is bad for them.

The hadith about how only the Quraish can lead the caliphate is an obvious fake. As if the prophet was a tribalist. The Quraish were the persecutors of Islam so why would Allah favour them. There are many hadiths which glorify certain tribes. They were invented by clans who wanted to claim a divine justification for their political ambitions. It's borrowed from the Jewish concept of a Chosen People. It was politically motivated hadiths like this which made me question how authentic these Sahih collections are. They're basically saying Allah is a racist because no Somali or Pakistani can ever be khalifa, it's got to be an Arab, and not just any Arab, but an Arab from the tribe who tried to kill Allah's messenger. It's literally a tribal religion for them.

Europeans had a similar thing: the divine right of kings. Monarchs were divinely appointed and could not be opposed. The Saudi ulama preach the same doctrine: they say that you can't rebel against the House of Saud because the prophet opposed overthrowing secular rulers. I knew that hadith was suspect because it is so obviously designed to protect dictators.

Sahih Bukhari and Muslim needs to be revised to exclude fake hadiths because they contain a lot of irrational stuff. The Hanafi scholar Atabek Shukurov says that only two hundred hadiths are authentic. The rest, all those many hundreds of thousands collected by medieval theologians, are dubious. Check out his book Hanafi Principles Of Testing Hadith.

Islam does not concern itself with politics, economics, science, mathematics, or the like. It concerns itself only with spirituality.