Somalis before Samaale
- Thread starter Zenyatta
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Maay and Maxaa arent even remotely mutually intelligible, let alone Somali and Oromo
Sounds a lot like the debunked south to north migration theory
May and Maxaa is mutually intelligible waa Af Soomaali but I agree Afaan Oromo and Af Soomaali is not
BebsiBolice
Suicidal men adore me.
Why did we split? I don't even think we look that alike nor that our culture and language look alike. I have a hard time believing we ever split. DIdn't our proto Somali start in the north and aren't Oromo from the highlands?
VixR
Veritas
Nah, there are def similarities to be found between Oromos and Somali in language, some culture, practice of ancient religion. We don't bother, most of us, to learn their language, but many of them speak ours with ease. A lot of times you can't tell they're not Somali as they speak.
Apollo
VIP
Lack of fast communication. Geographical barriers (mountains vs lowlands etc) eventually led to a split.
My guess is that the ancestor of proto-Oromo-Somali lived somewhere in the Ogaden region. Somalis lack genetic material from Omotics (not to be confused with Oromos) who lived in the highlands of South-Central Ethiopia, while Oromos have ancestry from Omotics. So Oromo got into Ethiopia from the Southeast lowlands. Originally they weren't highlanders.
Nearly anyone in the south can understand a lot if not most types of maay. Some just can't respond back.
How does a very slight grammar change and a lack of x make it a new language?
Also I can't understand Liverpudlian or Appalachian because I haven't had much contact with either but they're both English. Never mind the old English dialects that are relics that pretty much everyone would struggle to understand today.
Somalis and their hatred of any little diversity.
This is an English accent
http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm
"The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D."
The proto-Sam split from the main Cushite body about 500 BC. This was still just a group of southeastern Cushitic speakers. The Samaale diverged as they moved north after the beginning of the first century AD.
"The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D."
The proto-Sam split from the main Cushite body about 500 BC. This was still just a group of southeastern Cushitic speakers. The Samaale diverged as they moved north after the beginning of the first century AD.
BebsiBolice
Suicidal men adore me.
So while we got split because of geographical differences the proto Somalis got mixed with omotic people and are now the modern day Oromos? That sounds plausible. Did the proto Somalis in what is now Somalia become mixed with some other group?
Apollo
VIP
And later on the Oromos also mixed with the invading South Semites. That's why it's hard to tell Amharas and Northwest Oromos from each other. They look pretty much the same.
Somalia didn't have any inhabitants before Somalis, so there's no underlying substratum.
VixR
Veritas
That sounds suspect. What's your basis for saying that?
Apollo
VIP
There's no genetic substratum from a divergent non-Cushitic group in Somalis. All there is East Cushitic ancestry. Some say Khoisans lived there.. But there's no evidence for Khoisan living in Somalia, and if they did, they didn't leave any ancestral trace.
BebsiBolice
Suicidal men adore me.
Couldn't other cushitic groups have inhabited some parts of Somalia that we've managed to mix with? What is Kenya today before the bantu expansion had other non Somali/Oromo cushitic groups if I'm not wrong. I've always found Somali DNA to be fascinating since we don't have many haplogroup Ive always wondered if it's because of us being isolated from other groups or if it's because we have ancient east african mixture.
VixR
Veritas
It sounded like you were claiming no genetic substratum at all. What East Cushitic ancestry was found?
Apollo
VIP
Maybe.. but another Cushitic group would have been very similar to Somalis to begin with and hard to find evidence of their existence.
Omotics & Khoisan on the other hand are a divergent bunch with their own haplogroups and it's easier to spot admixture from them.
https://www.academia.edu/9529053/The_Ex ... l_Identity
Southern Somalia
"Before the incursions of the Hamitic Galla and Somali, this region, according to Lewis, was occupied by a mixed pre-Hamitic population-the Zengi of medieval Arab geographers-who seem to have comprised two distinct populations. Sedentary agricultural tribes, settled in the inter-riverine area survive today in Shidle, Kabole, Reer ‘Ise, Makanne, and Shabelle peoples on the Shabelle River. As Lewis (1961:22) writes:
To the same group belong the Eelaay of Baidoa in the hinterland, and the Tunni of Brava District. The other section of the pre-Hamitic population consisted of Bushmanlike hunters and gatherers, and along the rivers of fishermen, of whom contemporary representatives are the WaRibi, WaBooni of Jubaland and southern Somalia, and the Eyle of Bur Hacaba.
The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna, who are the aboriginal populations of the middle and upper Shabelle River plain, did not speak Bantu language at any known historical time (Cerulli, 1926; Cassanelli, 1982; Menkhaus, 2003). They speak the Somali language and use a considerable number of Galla-Oromo idioms. The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna are a sedentary and surely autochthonous pre-Cushitic
population, which implies, more importantly, that they are the Sab in the meaning of the term suggested by Ferrandi, which is that they are indigenous to the Horn of Africa. They maintained considerable cohesion and were powerful enough to remain politically autonomous from—and minimize predatory raids by—surrounding pastoralists (Menkhaus, 2010). The nomadic pastoralists learned the practice of agriculture from them (Puccioni, 1937). Northern pastoralists were attracted to the sedentary cultivating population of the south between the thirteenth and sixteenth centuries and even later (Cerulli, 1957). According to Cerulli, these pre-Cushitic agriculturalists along the Shabelle River are not considered low caste by the nomadic pastoralists (Cerulli, 1959). This differentiates them from the connected pre-Cushitic hunting groups such Eile, Bon, and Midgan, who are considered as low caste because of their activity. They are all indigenous pre-Somali populations and are evidently ethnically intermixed (Lewis, 1955). These groups are also those referred to as the Zenji population mentioned by Arab writers and geographers in medieval times and it seems that they consisted of two distinct groups: hunters and sedentary agriculturalists. Cerulli was aware of the autochthony of these agriculturalist populations. This is evident in Cerulli’s (1926:2-3) statements such as the following:
"I am increasingly convinced that the current explanation in relation to the undoubtedly Negro populations of the Shidle, the Shabelle etc., that is that they were the slaves of the Somalis and were liberated by their owners, is certainly to be rejected. I hold that there is no doubt that the primitive nucleus of the populations of the Shidle, the Shabelle etc. was made up of those left behind by the Negro Bantu when, under pressure from the Galla, they cleared out the people from the region of the Uebi."
According to the Book of the Zanj, noted in another post above, these groups were pushed into the upper reaches of the Jubba and other rivers by the Ajuraan/Oromo fighting during the Gaal Madow wars. These folks, called the Kasur in the book, were the aboriginal inhabitants of Somalia. Today, they are mostly assimilated among the Reewin. Despite Cerulli's opinion, they are neither Cushitic nor Bantu.
Southern Somalia
"Before the incursions of the Hamitic Galla and Somali, this region, according to Lewis, was occupied by a mixed pre-Hamitic population-the Zengi of medieval Arab geographers-who seem to have comprised two distinct populations. Sedentary agricultural tribes, settled in the inter-riverine area survive today in Shidle, Kabole, Reer ‘Ise, Makanne, and Shabelle peoples on the Shabelle River. As Lewis (1961:22) writes:
To the same group belong the Eelaay of Baidoa in the hinterland, and the Tunni of Brava District. The other section of the pre-Hamitic population consisted of Bushmanlike hunters and gatherers, and along the rivers of fishermen, of whom contemporary representatives are the WaRibi, WaBooni of Jubaland and southern Somalia, and the Eyle of Bur Hacaba.
The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna, who are the aboriginal populations of the middle and upper Shabelle River plain, did not speak Bantu language at any known historical time (Cerulli, 1926; Cassanelli, 1982; Menkhaus, 2003). They speak the Somali language and use a considerable number of Galla-Oromo idioms. The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna are a sedentary and surely autochthonous pre-Cushitic
population, which implies, more importantly, that they are the Sab in the meaning of the term suggested by Ferrandi, which is that they are indigenous to the Horn of Africa. They maintained considerable cohesion and were powerful enough to remain politically autonomous from—and minimize predatory raids by—surrounding pastoralists (Menkhaus, 2010). The nomadic pastoralists learned the practice of agriculture from them (Puccioni, 1937). Northern pastoralists were attracted to the sedentary cultivating population of the south between the thirteenth and sixteenth centuries and even later (Cerulli, 1957). According to Cerulli, these pre-Cushitic agriculturalists along the Shabelle River are not considered low caste by the nomadic pastoralists (Cerulli, 1959). This differentiates them from the connected pre-Cushitic hunting groups such Eile, Bon, and Midgan, who are considered as low caste because of their activity. They are all indigenous pre-Somali populations and are evidently ethnically intermixed (Lewis, 1955). These groups are also those referred to as the Zenji population mentioned by Arab writers and geographers in medieval times and it seems that they consisted of two distinct groups: hunters and sedentary agriculturalists. Cerulli was aware of the autochthony of these agriculturalist populations. This is evident in Cerulli’s (1926:2-3) statements such as the following:
"I am increasingly convinced that the current explanation in relation to the undoubtedly Negro populations of the Shidle, the Shabelle etc., that is that they were the slaves of the Somalis and were liberated by their owners, is certainly to be rejected. I hold that there is no doubt that the primitive nucleus of the populations of the Shidle, the Shabelle etc. was made up of those left behind by the Negro Bantu when, under pressure from the Galla, they cleared out the people from the region of the Uebi."
According to the Book of the Zanj, noted in another post above, these groups were pushed into the upper reaches of the Jubba and other rivers by the Ajuraan/Oromo fighting during the Gaal Madow wars. These folks, called the Kasur in the book, were the aboriginal inhabitants of Somalia. Today, they are mostly assimilated among the Reewin. Despite Cerulli's opinion, they are neither Cushitic nor Bantu.
barbers arent arab.wtf Samaale is arab too?This can't be true.
I have no idea about the history of Irir Samaale. Can someone give me a summary?
Lord Flacko
VIP
wtf Samaale is arab too?
I have no idea about the history of Irir Samaale. Can someone give me a summary?
Yemenis are quite dark, they're the "original" Arabs. The lighter skinned arabs today are mixed with white or arabized. It is possible some Somalis lived in Yemen in the olden days because of proximity.
Google "original arabs" for more info and such
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