T-Y45591 migration into the Horn of Africa

[anonimo]

@anonimo

For you it all boils down to boosting your insignificant numbers by claiming Isaak as Dir. The Y-DNA you’re trying to use to legitimize your case has shattered the false genealogy of the Dir clan. It’s also impossible for Isaak to be Dir while at the same time being the children of their alleged brother Magaadle.

I can also tell you that Magaadle do not claim Dir but are considered Dir by outsiders with zero knowledge of their origin. If anything, there’s more of a chance that Isaak and Magaadle was a single clan pre Islam than Isaak being Dir.

There are many books depicting the life of Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad.

1- Al-Dur Al Muntakhab Fi Alaqab Wal-asab (12 century manuscript) by unkown author.
2-Al Casjad Al-Manduum Li-Taariikh Wal-culuum (12 century manuscript) by
- Maxamed Hasan Al-Basri , 50 pages. Location, Al-Maktaba al-Daahiriya
Suuq al Hamiidiya , Dimashq Suriya.
3- Al-3asjad Al Manduum by Sharif Ahmed Muhammad Qaasim Al Gheribaani Yemen A Hashimi historian of Yemen (1910).
4- Thamrat Al-Mushtaaq Fi Manaaqib/Nasab al-Sheekh/Sayid Is'haaq by
Sharif Aydarus Sharif Ali Al-Aydarus 1947. (d 1347 H.A.)
Also the author of Bughyat Al-Amaal Fi-Taariikh Al Soomaal.Possile location
Madba3at 3abaadi Wa-Abnaauh, Yemen, San'a.
5- Adhwaa 3alaa Taariikh Al-Soomaal by Shariif Maxamed 3aydarus (1932-1999)
The ex-mayor of Maqudisho during the last elecion in Somalia 1968.
6-Kitaab Fatx Al-Baab Fi Al-Ansaab Wal-Alaqaab by 3abdialma3alim Ibn Yuusuf
known as 'Baabin Sayidih'.

We are Isaak and not Dir. I think you can take a break and lay off the cyber jihad because it won’t change the reality on ground.

You haven't answered all my questions again. Lay off the innuendo son. I have already come out and stated that old clan identities are genetically suspect. Unlike you, I do not change my stance depending on the flow of a debate. Moreover, it is not my subclan that alternate between Bani Hashim and 'Dir Irir Ban Nahay' to boost their numbers when countering the Daarood.

Now answer my questions please:

Why do your authority figures identify as Dir in contradiction to what you asserted?

Which books written 800 years ago support your stance about the age old traditions of the clan? Which library can it be found in?

As you are promoting the Arab lineage claimed by the Hashimists, wouldn't that make non-Hashemite T and E-V32 Isaaqs Sheegaads?

Can you provide an academic text to support your discrediting of Muuse Galal and Rashid Sheekh's analysis of the Guba poems?

 

[Arabsiyawi]

Same haplogroup but totally different clan to you - we aren’t even from the north. Yet genetically we share an origin, that I do not share with large sections of people from ‘my clan’.


my 2 cents in general:
Trying to force the half baked ideas of qabiil into the facts of DNA seems really pointless to me. We need to keep an open mind and be prepared to change our views based on new evidence (genetics) instead of trying to force the new evidence to agree with our old ideas.

So you’re ready to give up the bond that our families have created with our fellow clansmen for about a thousand years or so only for that reason ? That’s seems wrong to me. But idk if u meant that

 

[QueenofKings]

So you’re ready to give up the bond that our families have created with our fellow clansmen for about a thousand years or so only for that reason ? That’s seems wrong to me. But idk if u meant that

Saying ‘only for that reason’ makes it sound trivial, but ‘that reason’ aka DNA happens to be the only fact. So yes, for the quantifiable reasons of genetics I see qabiil means nothing.

Moreover, trying to force genetics into the framework of made up qabiils is totes pointless. The underlying assumption to these arguments is 1) qabiil is based on paternal lineage - this is proven wrong you don’t have to look far, me and the Isaaq brother share origin but are form 2 different clans in 2 different regions. My distant relations where from virtually every main clan. 2) for us to assume qabiil origin stories we have to assume qabiils have stayed static over time - this is wrong, they have not. At the macro scale they appear static but at the micro scale qabiils are extremely fluid and people change them.

So yes I think I’m right on this, and if you think about it more I think you’ll agree

 

[Sophisticate]

Saying ‘only for that reason’ makes it sound trivial, but ‘that reason’ aka DNA happens to be the only fact. So yes, for the quantifiable reasons of genetics I see qabiil means nothing.

Moreover, trying to force genetics into the framework of made up qabiils is totes pointless. The underlying assumption to these arguments is 1) qabiil is based on paternal lineage - this is proven wrong you don’t have to look far, me and the Isaaq brother share origin but are form 2 different clans in 2 different regions. My distant relations where from virtually every main clan. 2) for us to assume qabiil origin stories we have to assume qabiils have stayed static over time - this is wrong, they have not. At the macro scale they appear static but at the micro scale qabiils are extremely fluid and people change them.

So yes I think I’m right on this, and if you think about it more I think you’ll agree

What if it is found that some qabils are 1) difficult to enter in to and 2) quite legitimate in that most of their members possess the same patrilineal descent corroborated by both oral history and genetic testing (23andMe and Big Y test).

I'm curious.

 

[QueenofKings]

What if it is found that some qabils are 1) difficult to enter in to and 2) quite legitimate in that most of their members possess the same patrilineal decent corroborated by both oral history and genetic testing (23andMe and Big Y test).

I'm curious.

I don’t fully understand what you mean by clans being difficult to enter. All the three major clans have fluidity at the level of the twigs/small branches of the clan. There is no exclusivity inherent or externally imposed.

For your part 2) if it was proven then of course I have to accept that as fact. I’m not here to force an agenda, just saying it how I see it based on the evidence of the moment.

 

[Sophisticate]

I don’t fully understand what you mean by clans being difficult to enter. All the three major clans have fluidity at the level of the twigs/small branches of the clan. There is no exclusivity inherent or externally imposed.

For your part 2) if it was proven then of course I have to accept that as fact. I’m not here to force an agenda, just saying it how I see it based on the evidence of the moment.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Cuneo]

You haven't answered all my questions again. Lay off the innuendo son. I have already come out and stated that old clan identities are genetically suspect. Unlike you, I do not change my stance depending on the flow of a debate. Moreover, it is not my subclan that alternate between Bani Hashim and 'Dir Irir Ban Nahay' to boost their numbers when countering the Daarood.

Now answer my questions please:

Why do your authority figures identify as Dir in contradiction to what you asserted?

Which books written 800 years ago support your stance about the age old traditions of the clan? Which library can it be found in?

As you are promoting the Arab lineage claimed by the Hashimists, wouldn't that make non-Hashemite T and E-V32 Isaaqs Sheegaads?

Can you provide an academic text to support your discrediting of Muuse Galal and Rashid Sheekh's analysis of the Guba poems?

Your agenda is out in the open by now.

It’s not Isaak that need to boost their numbers and the authority figures you’re speaking of are none other than politicians based in Somalia. These individuals do not represent anyone but themselves.

I gave you a list of books, each one confirming the origin of the Isaak clan. You also refuse to acknowledge the official record of Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh’s abtirsi to Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad which precedes the Guba series that form the base of your argument.

People are entitled to their opinion. They can claim Zulu and Twa if they want but it won’t change the standalone nature and origin of the Isaak clan.

Muse Galal’s interpretation is subjective. The line “naag Dir badan” in of the Guba poems is correctly translated to “a woman from large community of people”. It doesn’t mean Dir the clan.

 

[anonimo]

Your agenda is out in the open by now.

Don't deflect from the debate at hand by launching accusations against my character. Not once in this thread have I used DNA to support the idea that a genetic Dir macro clan family exists.

As a matter of fact, in this thread, and elsewhere, I have recently been vocal about the confederate nature of Somali macro-clans after the reviewing 111 str test results. For instance, I put it out there that I am probably an outlier who is closer to non-Dir T STR results in this thread. I have also previously suggested in this very forum that pre-Islamic clans are probably confederacies. So what benefit would I have by stating the fact that Isaaq STR results are closer to Samaron than they are to me? It does not strengthen the Dir clan tree structure as you rightly pointed out. Moreover, I have even gone out on a limb by stating that I don't necessarily even believe that Surre T's will necessary belong to the same genetic clan family.

I initially challenged the false statements you were making about the Somali Y16897 lineage because they were grounded in ignorance and hypocrisy. For example, when debating Asrafael, you were quoting the research carried out by Esteban to support your argument that the Dir Y16897 lineage is closely related to the Al Faraj Kuwaiti sample. However, in this thread, you are doing a 190 degree turn by acting like you have never come across Esteban's research and denied that the Samaron/Ciise are closer to the Isaaq than they are to the Surre sample because it went against the propaganda that you were trying to promote. I found that to be hypocrisy of the highest order When I checked you, you changed your tone and stated that the Yfull TMRCA will most likely not be much shorter for the Samaron/Ciise/Isaaq split then the Surre/Isaaq split.

Again you’re presenting your own theories as facts and unlike Esteban you don’t have any credentials.

According to the Spaniard, the Dir Y111 sample is closer to the Kuwaiti Al Faraj sample than the Saudi one. If Somali-Saudi Y45591 TMRCA is 3000 ybp than the TMRCA with the Kuwaiti Al Faraj must be younger than that which refutes your Neolithic back migration theory and instead points towards the Arabian peninsula or the Persian Gulf.

We’re still waiting for Rendille and South Cushitic samples but it’s highly unlikely that they will test positive for Y45591 or even Y16897.

GENETICS - T-M184 Discussion

You’re driven by emotions and pseudo ethno-nationalism. Wether Y45591 is South Arabian in origin or not doesn’t refute the fact that it was introduced to the Somali gene pool quite recently, approximately 2000 years ago. What you’ve presented is your own theories and unlike Esteban you don’t...

www.somalispot.com

Secondly, I have never claimed that the Hawiye or other non-Dir T results are lost Dir etc. If sought to portray that the Somali T lineage is the sole preserve of Dir, would I have made the statements that I did in this thread? After more results became available, I accepted and acknowledged that Dir are not Blood Brothers necessarily and only micro subclans will probably form genetic clan families. In contrast, you are the one who has been peddling the propaganda that non-Dir T's are lost Dir assimilated into other clans. This consistent hypocrisy displayed by you is what drove me to finally put an end to your deceitful approach to Somali genetics and History.

Some of the Dir clans that inhabit the area, surrounding Karanle on all 4 sides, do not inhabit Somalia/Somaliland. They’re natives to the Somali region.

As of now it looks like Y44591 subclade arrived quite recently to the Somali peninsula and not part of the Somali ethnogenesis based on TMRCA. That could change with more DNA results from other Cushites.

The haplogroup also peaks among Dir and Isaaq (the majority) indicating that it’s the original y-lineage of these two clans unlike the few HG-T results among Hawiye and Darod, who are most likely assimilated Dir.

The Y44591 subclade is either from the Red Sea area (Hejaz or Yemen) or the Mediterranean. We don’t know for sure.

I’m basing my theory on the fact that Y-lineages correspond with the ethnogenesis of Somali clans. All the branches of Dir are HG-T (from the oldest to the youngest subclan). The same goes for Isaaq with more than half of Isaaq being HG-T, including smaller less known subclans such as Ayub, Toljeclo etc. This indicates that HG-T is the original Y-lineage of Dir and Isaaq.

Hawiye and Darod, based on test results, seem to be overwhelmingly E-V32. That is the origin Y-lineage of Hawiye and Darod. Indivuals from these two clans carrying J1, HG-L or HG-T are most likely descendants of assimilated individuals.

Somali army partiying

You’ve just proved my point. Again I get it about Southern Dir but where do you get off saying Hawiye are assimilated Dir? Karanle is the eldest born of Hawiye and my family is T. The ethnogenesis of Somali clans correspond with Y-lineages. HG-T is found in a small number of Hawiyes and Darod...

www.somalispot.com

Tell me now, which one of us has been telling porky pies to suit their agenda? In your previous post, you boasted about how DNA has shattered the Dir genealogy, yet in the thread above, you have stated the opposite. There is also an irony that you are throwing Isaaq E-V32, E-V22 etc. under a bus by labelling them as not real descendants of Isaaq because T forms the majority of the Isaaq clan according to your 'research'.

It’s not Isaak that need to boost their numbers and the authority figures you’re speaking of are none other than politicians based in Somalia. These individuals do not represent anyone but themselves.

I gave you a list of books, each one confirming the origin of the Isaak clan. You also refuse to acknowledge the official record of Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh’s abtirsi to Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad which precedes the Guba series that form the base of your argument.

People are entitled to their opinion. They can claim Zulu and Twa if they want but it won’t change the standalone nature and origin of the Isaak clan.

Muse Galal’s interpretation is subjective. The line “naag Dir badan” in of the Guba poems is correctly translated to “a woman from large community of people”. It doesn’t mean Dir the clan.

You have made certain claims in this thread and all I am asking of you is to answer a few questions regarding these claims. If you cannot, or do not have the ability to do so then we can call it quits. Please answer these few simple questions:

Why are your traditional elders and politicians based in Somaliland identifying with a Dir clan identity? If you are a stand-alone clan for 800 years as you claim, excluding countless laymen, why are high profile individuals from your clan claiming to be Dir in this day and age? Why did you claim that only politicians in Somalia do so for economic reasons? Address this please.

Secondly, do you have any academic evidence that goes against the prevailing interpretation of the extract from the Gubba series that I had initially posted, the one where Ismail clearly uses the 'Dir iyo Daarood' clan groupings in reference to the conflict between Isaaq and Ogaden? Muuse Galal was probably the most distinguished Somali linguist of his age. You, on the other hand,....no comment!

Thirdly, I asked you to provide non-contemporary historical evidence, screenshots etc., of the Isaaq clan going back 800 years, not some list of 20th century books which talk about an Arab Sheikh who did not give rise to the majority of the Isaaq clan members tested so far. The J Isaaq guy might just be the saviour of the Sheikh's supposed presence on Somali soil. I Kid! The one book supposedly written in the 12th century in your list, can you provide documentary evidence of this, directly or indirectly? Post receipts of a historical script going back eight hundreds years documenting the claim you made.

Lastly, if you believe that the origin of the Isaaq clan as described in that list of 20th century books is true, would you consider the indigenous T Isaaqs local Sheegaads who claimed his lineage?

 

[Moholin01]

Saying ‘only for that reason’ makes it sound trivial, but ‘that reason’ aka DNA happens to be the only fact. So yes, for the quantifiable reasons of genetics I see qabiil means nothing.

Moreover, trying to force genetics into the framework of made up qabiils is totes pointless. The underlying assumption to these arguments is 1) qabiil is based on paternal lineage - this is proven wrong you don’t have to look far, me and the Isaaq brother share origin but are form 2 different clans in 2 different regions. My distant relations where from virtually every main clan. 2) for us to assume qabiil origin stories we have to assume qabiils have stayed static over time - this is wrong, they have not. At the macro scale they appear static but at the micro scale qabiils are extremely fluid and people change them.

So yes I think I’m right on this, and if you think about it more I think you’ll agree

Are you a guy or a girl, sorry?

 

[QueenofKings]

Are you a guy or a girl, sorry?

Lol what does it matter in this case
Name is Queen of Kings so I’m a lady

 

[Moholin01]

Lol what does it matter in this case ☺
Name is Queen of Kings so I’m a lady

Lol I only ask because I'm confused. How are you T-haplogroup then?


@Cuneo @anonimo

I feel like this argument is moot. What does it matter if Isaaq is closer to Gadabuursi and Ciise than other Dir or not? That shit is irrelevant considering the very small sample size we have atm. As more Somalis get tested, and more T-haplo results come in, we'll be able to determine the exact connection these subclans have with one another. For all we know, there's a Hawiye subclan that shares TMRCA with Isaaq etc.

Either way, I'm not invested in Macro-level clan arrangements as those are fixed. 1000 years of intermarriage, alliance and living together means Isaaq, Dir, Hawiye and Darood are real clans. Genetics doesn't really change anything.


What I noticed, however, is one of the links @anonimo provided claims that the T-Y45591 TMRCA for Somalis is closer to the Kuwaiti than to the Saudi samples. Is this true?

 

[QueenofKings]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I don’t fully 100% understand the explanation of Samaroon. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that lineage tracing the smaller scales can be accurate, or more accurate than the umbarella qabiils.

But then I think we have so many Somali clans, and then like 2 Main haplogroups that we also share with people outside of Somalia. How can that fit into qabiil mythology. More importantly why should it fit into qabiil mythology? Why is it so important to prove qabiil right.

 

[QueenofKings]

Lol I only ask because I'm confused. How are you T-haplogroup then?


@Cuneo @anonimo

I feel like this argument is moot. What does it matter if Isaaq is closer to Gadabuursi and Ciise than other Dir or not? That shit is irrelevant considering the very small sample size we have atm. As more Somalis get tested, and more T-haplo results come in, we'll be able to determine the exact connection these subclans have with one another. For all we know, there's a Hawiye subclan that shares MRCA with Isaaq etc.

Either way, I'm not invested in Macro-level clan arrangements as those are fixed. 1000 years of intermarriage, alliance and living together means Isaaq, Dir, Hawiye and Darood are real clans. Genetic doesn't really change anything.


What I noticed, however, is one of the links @anonimo provided claims that the T-Y45591 TMRCA for Somalis is closer to the Kuwaiti than to the Saudi samples. Is this true?

Ah ok, I thought that as I pressed send. My brothers did the test.

 

[Moholin01]

Ah ok, I thought that as I pressed send. My brothers did the test.

You are Dir?

 

[Sophisticate]

I don’t fully 100% understand the explanation of Samaroon. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that lineage tracing the smaller scales can be accurate, or more accurate than the umbarella qabiils.

But then I think we have so many Somali clans, and then like 2 Main haplogroups that we also share with people outside of Somalia. How can that fit into qabiil mythology. More importantly why should it fit into qabiil mythology? Why is it so important to prove qabiil right.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[QueenofKings]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I see now what you mean, thanks for that explanation.

And I agree qabiil will have some political and some real genetic elements to it.

I suppose I don’t disagree with (many) of your arguments or conclusions, I disagree with the principal of even looking into this sort of thing when so much of it at least at this stage is speculation. Again why the need to qabiil real. And how do you get around the fact that these haplogroups are shared with neighbouring ethnicities.

 

[Sophisticate]

I see now what you mean, thanks for that explanation.

And I agree qabiil will have some political and some real genetic elements to it.

I suppose I don’t disagree with (many) of your arguments or conclusions, I disagree with the principal of even looking into this sort of thing when so much of it at least at this stage is speculation. Again why the need to qabiil real. And how do you get around the fact that these haplogroups are shared with neighbouring ethnicities.

It's speculative so one can't jump to definitive conclusions. We're just hypothesis testing based on what we've cobbled together so far.

We're more related to each other as Somalis than we are to the neighbouring ethnicities with which we share haplogroups. We haven't discounted autosomal DNA.

 

[NFD]

Very interesting that the self professed proudly indigenous Dir (curad Dir iyo caws lafil) are South Arabian? if this is confirmed without a doubt? I've told my mom and Abtis and they've denied this vehemently and claim it's a conspiracy lol.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

Long story short, our Cushite ancestors migrated to the Horn from North Sudan & wiped out the indigenous inhabitants who were Hunter Gatherers in the Somali Peninsula.

Were the hunter gatherers cushitic or San people? The 10% in our DNA you mentioned?

 

[Apollo]

Were the hunter gatherers cushitic or San people? The 10% in our DNA you mentioned?

Nope, they were neither.

Every region in Africa has had native hunter-gatherers, including Somalia. Their remains and tools have been discovered all over Somaliweyn, including the North.

The San are a totally different variant native to far Southern Africa. Somalis have no ancestry from them. Ironically, the Southern Khoisan have some very minor (2-8%) Cushitic ancestry from Southern Cushites who migrated all the way to Southern Africa around 1,000 BCE. Some San became pastoralists because of this (look up the Khoikhoi/Khoekhoe herders). They had goats (an animal first domesticated in the Middle East) before contact with Bantus or Europeans. Wandering Cushites gave them goats.