The dangers of censoring islam's critics in islamic societies

[The alchemist]

No it doesn't. i literly mentioned kalam which was one of islam's responses to the criticisms it received. I believe in islam so much that i am not scared of people criticizing it. all am asking for is literly muslims to be muslims because they believe in islam, not because their parents are muslims. Only way i currently found is if muslims are questioned on their beliefs can they reflect.

What? Islam needed kalaam to surive? You're way off, kid.

I'm not going to have a back-and-forth with a dude that doesn't do the basic courtesy of understanding his own religion but says we need to open ourselves to invite enemies to attack us. You're either a naive kid or you're a dishonest guy trying to dogwshitle shady views. Pick the former.

I am finished with this discussion. I suggest you learn more about Islam, and Sharia, and stop regurgitating silly takes.

 

[Xoxoxo]

Ehhh that doesn’t work with Islam.

Islam exists for 1444 years (or smt like that), it’s in it core at the moment.

It’s like questioning Christian’s 700 years ago, and that wouldn’t have end that well

 

[xiin-finiin]

Why do you assume Sharia is susceptible to an echo chamber? It's a comprehensive balanced system. You have a lot of Westernized assumptions.

Islam says to reflect on the deen and not be a passive Muslim. Literally what Islam tells believers to do. Why are you coming here saying we need to platform critics of Islam (a strange idea, by the way), and pretend reflection upon religion is a novel trait pressured by them, as if Islam doesn't give us the tools to deal with this?

You need to understand your religion more it seems.

saxiib, maadan akhriyin waxaan qoray miyaa? there only two reasons i can think of as to why you'd act this way. either 1) you've never been to an islamic country, or 2) you are one of those people that believe in fitra and completely downplay the importance of the intellect. if it's 1), then let me tell you, even though islam invites reflection, people in islamic countries don't reflect on the important tenets of islam much (at least the countries i've been to). when you are sure of islam, there is almost no point in reflecting (this confidence in islam doesn't come from reflection but rather from blind imitation of one's own parents and the society they live in). if you are 2), then hey, you do you my guy. And you are right, nothing is gonna come of this and tbh, you seem like an angry guy that doesn't know how to state his views without insulting others. And yes, i think kalam played a huge role in saving islam from succumbing to what i think you have succumbed to. I too feel like your posts add nothing of value to this post (even if you do post, i put you on ignore so i won't see what you say).

 

[The alchemist]

saxiib, maadan akhriyin waxaan qoray miyaa? there only two reasons i can think of as to why you'd act this way. either 1) you've never been to an islamic country, or 2) you are one of those people that believe in fitra and completely downplay the importance of the intellect. if it's 1), then let me tell you, even though islam invites reflection, people in islamic countries don't reflect on the important tenets of islam much (at least the countries i've been to). when you are sure of islam, there is almost no point in reflecting (this confidence in islam doesn't come from reflection but rather from blind imitation of one's own parents and the society they live in). if you are 2), then hey, you do you my guy. And you are right, nothing is gonna come of this and tbh, you seem like an angry guy that doesn't know how to state his views without insulting others. And yes, i think kalam played a huge role in saving islam from succumbing to what i think you have succumbed to. I too feel like your posts add nothing of value to this post (even if you do post, i put you on ignore so i won't see what you say).

I am telling you to use your intellect as it seems you, time and time again, present ideas that have not gone through the process of the inference of reason. You're talking about intellect while I had to patiently school you last time on that wasteful discussion you fully conceded on your ignorance and lack of basic comprehension and it seems we're on a repeat. Don't even try this smart-ass business, kid. And about the dishonest take of my posts not bringing any value, let me remind you of your own words after getting due criticism of what value I brought, lmao:

i was just rereading this post and i realized i messed up big time. i Was conflating many things and didn't have a clear understanding of what even moral relativism was. So, i'd like to apologize fr this time. I will do more research and make sure i really understand anything i post from now on. Thanks for writing those long messages trying to convince me lol. idk why i was soo defensive

That post reflects what value I brought to you, so humble yourself if you forgot.

You have a tendency to not understand the ideas you're peddling. So no, I am not the guy that believes that fitrah alone is sufficient -- no human knowledgeable about Islam will ever claim it, so why present this nonsensical strawman? If you know the deen, fitrah is a natural inclination for morality, but it is not enough and will not save you if you don't have Islamic knowledge, commitment, and intentive corresponding actions.

If you believe Kalam saved Islam, you haven't cultivated enough knowledge to even carry this subject. As I told you last time, understand the things you're talking about better or simply go and seek knowledge by asking the learned.

I won't be charitable with you from now on since it seems you make it a habit to argue from a place of ignorance with an audacious force of ego.

You're talking to a guy that read philosophy in general, and I know of Kalam to some extent, checking the discourse throughout the years. But I take those things for what they are, measuring their strength and limitations by reason. Your silly strawman failed and I am about done with this.

This exchange is over.

 

[Omar del Sur]

or 2) you are one of those people that believe in fitra and completely downplay the importance of the intellect.

I think this is the issue here. I don't think people are right to say you are a non-Muslim... I don't believe you're a non-Muslim or anything like that...

but I do think there is an excessive influence of philosophy and "enlightenment" ideology.

"question everything" is "enlightenment" philosophy, not Islam.

and this is a danger- you don't obtain the solid grounding in Islamic knowledge but you want to look into philosophy and it leads to wrong understanding of Islam due to the influence of philosophy.

you need to forget what philosophy has taught you and shut the door to philosophy. forget philosophy and focus on Islamic knowledge.

Islam is not based upon our limited human reason, it is based on wisdom of Allah.

when you study tafsir, you are reflecting on Islam. when you study any branch of Islamic knowledge, you are reflecting on Islam.

learning and spreading Islamic knowledge are praiseworthy ways of making people reflect on Islam. but Islam is not based on your limited human intellect... making people question Islam is not something that is good from an Islamic viewpoint. and also @Hamzza is right- why do you want to prevent Islamic societies from being an "echo chamber"? does the Quran or Sunnah talk about this or is this coming from your own mind?

I think you have been negatively influenced by philosophy, adopted a wrong view of the role of human reason based on Western philosophy and are coming up with views based on your own reasoning rather than Quran and Sunnah. this is really dangerous and I don't agree with calling you a kaffir but people are right to be upset at you promoting these views. these are really dangerous deviations. having this undue influence of Western philosophy is a danger to yourself and to others. so I really encourage you to cast out the influence of philosophy and stick to pure Islam.

and I've talked about before- this idea that "Muslim philosophy" was a great thing and that it's a big tragedy that Muslims didn't follow the "Muslim philosophers"- it is completely false. the scholars were right to refute them. the "Muslim philosopher" people.... these were Aristotle superfans. they would put what Aristotle said over what the Quran and Sunnah said. would you really want to attend the jummah khutbah and the khatib is quoting Aristotle rather than the Quran???? would you really want to base your religion on Aristotle?

what about being lectured by some feminazi who reads books of feminism and puts crazy feminist ideas ahead of what Quran and Sunnah say? or a "Muslim Communist" who puts Karl Marx and Lenin ahead of Quran and Sunnah". or a loony person who claims they are a "Muslim nazi" and they put Hitler in front of what the Quran says....

do you think these people are following a proper approach? No- Islam is based on Quran and Sunnah. not limited human reasoning. and to promote thinking otherwise is an attack on the very foundations of Islam. so it is a very serious thing.

 

[Yibir_]

From moral relativism to censoring islamic texts, to an infinity theorem and now advocating for the spreading apostate views.

Is this a speed run on how you became an irreligious cultural muslim?

Peak mid-wit positions. Its over for you. @Waa dhamatay

 

[Waa dhamatay]

From moral relativism to censoring islamic texts, to an infinity theorem and now advocating for the spreading apostate views.

Is this a speed run on how you became an irreligious cultural muslim?

Peak mid-wit positions. Its over for you. @Waa dhamatay

My cortisol spiked hard, I thought I made a low IQ post here or something.

 

[Yibir_]

My cortisol spiked hard, I thought I made a low IQ post here or something.

You will be remoralized, you will enjoy it, you will learn to love life, you will find purpose and you will make it. It was never over for you buddy, your life has barely just begun.

 

[xiin-finiin]

Islam is not based upon our limited human reason, it is based on wisdom of Allah.

when you study tafsir, you are reflecting on Islam. when you study any branch of Islamic knowledge, you are reflecting on Islam.

learning and spreading Islamic knowledge are praiseworthy ways of making people reflect on Islam.

This is a view that makes perfect sense and that i can respect. I might not agree with it in the sense that i also believe in addition to reflecting on islam using islam itself, rationality should also be used to reflect on it, but i appreciate it. As for the islamic philosophers, you are right. Most of them were indeed Aristotle fan boys (ibn sina, ibn rushd, etc). But there are ones that didn't follow Aristotle like sheep. If i choose to do more research into philosophy, those are the ones i will def look into. If anyone is wondering who those are, they are: fakhradin-razi, suhrawardi, abulbarak-al-baghdadi (fun fact, this guy was jewish but he converted to islam)

 

[Omar del Sur]

This is a view that makes perfect sense and that i can respect. I might not agree with it in the sense that i also believe in addition to reflecting on islam using islam itself, rationality should also be used to reflect on it, but i appreciate it. As for the islamic philosophers, you are right. Most of them were indeed Aristotle fan boys (ibn sina, ibn rushd, etc). But there are ones that didn't follow Aristotle like sheep. If i choose to do more research into philosophy, those are the ones i will def look into. If anyone is wondering who those are, they are: fakhradin-razi, suhrawardi, abulbarak-al-baghdadi (fun fact, this guy was jewish but he converted to islam)

If you would study the works of the scholars, such as Ibn Hajr's commentary on Saheeh Al-Bukhari... you would find that there is plenty of intellectual stimulation and intellectual brilliance in their work. The route that you're promoting is deviant. And to me it is a lot more challenging and intellectual to take on the superpower of our time versus simply to adopt the viewpoint of the Europeans. Islam is not based on your limited human intellect and what you are promoting is really serious deviation.

And honestly it's only going to hurt you in terms of gaining Islamic knowledge.You have to be humble and seek out the knowledge before you try to be as daring as you're being.