The Economic Policies that Ruined Ethiopia

[Prince Abubu]

Interesting view, but in a anarchy you can have socialism as well. I do believe it can work in small groups, like clans. Being a good person is actually more beneficial. For capitalism to succeed, selfishness must be tempered by an equally powerful inclination toward cooperation, empathy and trust — traits that are hard-wired into our nature and reinforced by our moral instincts.

You sound like a right-wing conservative. What has that got to do with Anarchism?

 

[Prince Abubu]

Capitalism is the way to go socialism is the death of all nations, big government should not exist and the business can do things better than the government for cheaper, plus It brings competition and puts the wealth in the hands of the people and also creates jobs and innovations

Stop regurgitating Thomas Sowell textbooks and think for yourself.

 

[Apollo]

Stop regurgitating Thomas Sowell textbooks and think for yourself.

When did you become a doctrinaire leftist? I never really believed in leftwing ideology in the West. Only strategically support them as they wish to flood the West with brown people.

 

[Prince Abubu]

When did you become a doctrinaire leftist? I never really believed in leftwing ideology in the West. Only strategically support them as they wish to flood the West with brown people.

I've always been at least centre left. But the last few years I've drifted far left. Once you actually study history and economics, you learn capitalism is a hoax that's kept on life support by powerful interest groups. Once your read philosophy, your realise there's no moral grounding for the current system.

 

[The alchemist]

If your arguments against Socialism are Venezuela, USSR, and North Korea/China then you need to actually read about socialism. Read Marx's Das Kapital Vol I.

Capitalism is unsustainable and is destroying our planet. It cannot be controlled or regulated. 100 companies are responsible for 71% of anthropogenic climate change.
Like Feudalism, it is another stage of human progression that needs to be transcended.

As somebody interested in the survival of the Somali race, you cannot in good conscience be Pro-capital. Somalia today is a Laissez-faire capitalist shithole with little to no regulations, oversight and welfare for the population. Look at how well things are going. We're cutting down trees to sell as coal, polluting the land with plastic waste, overgrazing due to livestock being our primary industry causing droughts and famines etc.

FYI, I'm not a Marxist.

There is no moral ground for any system. We can't argue for objective morality.

There is no alternative to Capitalism. Capitalism is not a perfect system, and it has no end game. But if you regulate the market, and implement state-controlled social programs, then things would be more bearable.

But let's look at China. The Chinese have a system they call Socialism with Chinese characteristics. They realized that a perfect socialist system could only come from a well functioning body. Were all the organs (institutions) are high performing. The most rational and effective way to achieve this is through the free market.

Socialism is not possible in a small market like Somalia, and it is behind in every possible way, and it can't hope to thrive with its economy shut from outside influence and speculation, when technology is the deciding factor of who succeeds, and are creating a more globalized world. And we all know that to get access to the newest equipment, you have to more or less partake in the free market.

Nothing exists in a vacuum anymore, and people have to stop looking at a lens from the 1900s. Karl Marx criticism of capitalism was spot on, but implementing complete socialism is nearly impossible without elevating oneself through the help of the free market.

I don't like capitalism, but it's the only game in town, and we Somalis don't have the luxury to think and experiment to get a perfect system when the West and East hasn't fixed theirs with all their intellectual capacity.

On the other hand, we have lunatics like @Kurolady08 who argues for a completely unregulated market, completely ignoring that there are no incentives to do something good for the environment if it does not make a profit in such a system.

I suggest we use a better form of Capitalism until we work out a better plan on how to make a system compatible with the environment and all life on the planet. But currently, we have not the luxury or the capacity to think of a solution on how to fix the world when we are literally at the bottom. Let's be realistic here.

I personally think the idea of Socialism is a good thing, where the workers equally own the industry with the amount they produce, but no one has ever done it successfully. Socialism can only happen when capitalism is dead, and this will never be a peaceful or smooth transition.

And the Scandinavian countries are Social democratic. They are capitalist with strong social safety net regulated and controlled by the sate. People saying those countries are Socialist is ridiculous. They are capitalist because they partake in the global market.

 

[James Dahl]

Are you truly socialist/communist when it comes to Horn? It doesn't work.

I'm for Japan/South-Korea-style politics in Somalia (Capitalist, Nationalist etc).

Don't really care about the West, so long as the borders stay wide open.

Japan and South Korea developed along Soviet economic models of state capitalism and planned development. They were fascist governments and fascism tries to achieve a communist government without socialism. Japan and South Korea only fully embraced capitalism and free markets in the 1990s and it led to their economy imploding.

 

[Prince Abubu]

Japan and South Korea developed along Soviet economic models of state capitalism and planned development. They were fascist governments and fascism tries to achieve a communist government without socialism. Japan and South Korea only fully embraced capitalism and free markets in the 1990s and it led to their economy imploding.

Japan and More used 'import substitution', a mixed economic model where the state helped infant industries by providing cheap loans, subsidies and a skilled labour-force. It also helped workers by providing full employment and some benefits. However, this system is no longer viable as Japan and Korea had access to immense funding from US, in order that they don't fall to communism in the Cold War.

Korea and Japan opening up their economies to foreign competition and financial speculation led to the Asian Financial crisis of the 1990's. Capitalism isn't a bargain, you take it all or you take nothing (and the global powers won't allow fo you to chose the latter - see Venezuela). Small poor countries have always known this. Rich western nations are finding this out now in the climate of the rise of the far right.

 

[Apollo]

@Prince Abubu

What do you think of the idea of going full capitalist for a few decades to kickstart growth and then slowly adapting social democracy?

Sweden more or less developed like this.

 

[Prince Abubu]

@Prince Abubu

What do you think of the idea of going full capitalist for a few decades to kick start growth and then slowly adapting social democracy?

Sweden more or less developed like this.

There's a whole school of socialism/Marxism devoted to that process. It's called 'Reformism' advocated by Social Democrats, and while it seems like a nice and sensible idea, in reality it doesn't work. It's a Bourgeoisie fantasy. Capital, if allowed to exist, always accumulates. It's a fundamental law, like gravity. If it is allowed to accumulate, it undermines wages and the institution of democracy. There is no reforming Capitalism, it must be dismantled completely. In a capitalist system, even one as progressive as Sweden, the means of production are still in the hands of rich capitalists. This means they have the money and power to influence political institutions and politicians. They have the funds to buy advertising and media corporations, and thus drown out the voice of the majority working class - like in the US and UK, which is effectively ruled by media-barons and lobby-groups.

This argument has been had and history has proven the failure of trying to reform Capitalism. Read about the New Deal, the German Revolution and the history of the SPD in Germany.

 

[Apollo]

There's a whole school of socialism/Marxism devoted to that process. It's called 'Reformism' advocated by Social Democrats, and while it seems like a nice and sensible idea, in reality it doesn't work. It's a Bourgeoisie fantasy. Capital, if allowed to exist, always accumulates. It's a fundamental law, like gravity. If it is allowed to accumulate, it undermines wages and the institution of democracy. There is no reforming Capitalism, it must be dismantled completely. In a capitalist system, even one as progressive as Sweden, the means of production are still in the hands of rich capitalists. This means they have the money and power to influence political institutions and politicians. They have the funds to buy advertising and media corporations, and thus drown out the voice of the majority working class - like in the US and UK, which is effectively ruled by media-barons and lobby-groups.

This argument has been had and history has proven the failure of trying to reform Capitalism. Read about the New Deal, the German Revolution and the history of the SPD in Germany.

My most severe issue with Socialism and Somalis is this:

Corruption.

Somalis are one of the most, if not the most corrupt people on the planet. Also, extremely nepotistic (muh clan syndrome).

This is the primary reason why I lean heavily to the right when it comes to sociopolitical matters in the Horn. First, this needs to be resolved, perhaps through a century or multiple decades of hardcore capitalism and cultural reform before socialism/social democracy can be implemented into the Horn.

Your ideas stand a better chance of being successful in a country like the UK, but unlikely to yield good results in the Horn.

 

[Prince Abubu]

My most severe issue with Socialism and Somalis is this:

Corruption.

Somalis are one of the most, if not the most corrupt people on the planet. Also, extremely nepotistic (muh clan syndrome).

This is the primary reason why I lean heavily to the right when it comes to sociopolitical matters in the Horn. First, this needs to be resolved, perhaps through a century or multiple decades of hardcore capitalism and cultural reform before socialism/social democracy can be implemented into the Horn.

Your ideas stand a better chance of being successful in a country like the UK, but unlikely to yield good results in the Horn.

Nah, man. That's a cop-out, and you do your people no justice by claiming they are inherently more corrupt than other societies. Capitalist systems are corrupt by design. What's more corrupt than a worker getting a pittance or being made redundant while the useless board-members award themselves and the CEO millions of dollars/pounds in bonuses. Look at what GM did after record sales, look at what that games company just did recently. I've worked in both private and public sector, and hands down the private sector is more corrupt. The difference is in the private sector it's not labelled as 'corruption', but instead as 'rational economic decisions'. An example would be climate change and the role of fossil fuels. ExxonMobil knew about it since the sixties, yet chose to sit on it and fund research that claimed the opposite was true. Look at the Trump tax cuts recently. Taxes were cut for the wealthy billionaires, millionaires and corporations in the hooes that it would stimulate growth and investment. You know what those same rich capitalists side after they got their tax cuts? They used it to artificially inflate stock prices and engaged in stock-buybacks. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is.

 

[Apollo]

Nah, man. That's a cop-out, and you do your people no justice by claiming they are inherently more corrupt than other societies.

This is based on observations both in the West and in the Horn. In the West, Somalis are known for extreme welfare fraud schemes. More so than other communities. They have set up all kinds of creative schemes in the West to defraud the state. What makes you think they won't do it in Somalia?

It's the same culture/mindset. Also, studies show that Somalia is the most corrupt country on the planet. There are indices that track this.

Capitalist systems are corrupt by design. What's more corrupt than a worker getting a pittance or being made redundant while the useless board-members award themselves and the CEO millions of dollars/pounds in bonuses. Look at what GM did after record sales, look at what that games company just did recently. I've worked in both private and public sector, and hands down the private sector is more corrupt. The difference is in the private sector it's not labelled as 'corruption', but instead as 'rational economic decisions'. An example would be climate change and the role of fossil fuels. ExxonMobil knew about it since the sixties, yet chose to sit on it and fund research that claimed the opposite was true. Look at the Trump tax cuts recently. Taxes were cut for the wealthy billionaires, millionaires and corporations in the hooes that it would stimulate growth and investment. You know what those same rich capitalists side after they got their tax cuts? They used it to artificially inflate stock prices and engaged in stock-buybacks. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is.

I get what you are saying, but most of your ideas and theories apply more towards the developed West rather than the yet-to-develop Horn. Culturally, the Horn is like in the 1600s/1700s stage of capitalism (with the West being the benchmark). Socialism only worked in the West after they managed to develop somewhat, and it worked best in the most developed regions of the West (Nordics).

Sociopolitical systems are not universal, you have to take local factors into account.

 

[Tukraq]

Nah, man. That's a cop-out, and you do your people no justice by claiming they are inherently more corrupt than other societies. Capitalist systems are corrupt by design. What's more corrupt than a worker getting a pittance or being made redundant while the useless board-members award themselves and the CEO millions of dollars/pounds in bonuses. Look at what GM did after record sales, look at what that games company just did recently. I've worked in both private and public sector, and hands down the private sector is more corrupt. The difference is in the private sector it's not labelled as 'corruption', but instead as 'rational economic decisions'. An example would be climate change and the role of fossil fuels. ExxonMobil knew about it since the sixties, yet chose to sit on it and fund research that claimed the opposite was true. Look at the Trump tax cuts recently. Taxes were cut for the wealthy billionaires, millionaires and corporations in the hooes that it would stimulate growth and investment. You know what those same rich capitalists side after they got their tax cuts? They used it to artificially inflate stock prices and engaged in stock-buybacks. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is.

how are the board members useless nowadays you don't even need workers, you can automize most of these "workers" jobs, they're basically doing busy work, the ceos are the ones driving innovation and ideas to reality, and deserve millions. people should be worth what they bring to the market, I agree with social safety nets but this punishment of entrepreneurs is where I feel socialism goes to far, it like they punish you for being successful if I lived in a place like Sweden there would be almost no incentive to work when I can be lazy at home and get all these benefits:siilaanyosmile: intact working hard gets you punished(extreme taxation)(being selfish is a human quality that isn't bad), this would cause a society where no one would be innovative or really work hard causing us to stagnate as a country, I mean when was the last time you heard of a new innovation from Sweden, if it wasn't for the American dream and the incentive to get rich from being poor you wouldn't even be on the internet right now, or on a cell phone

 

[Prince Abubu]

This is based on observations both in the West and in the Horn. In the West, Somalis are known for extreme welfare fraud schemes. More so than other communities. They have set up all kinds of creative schemes in the West to defraud the state. What makes you think they won't do it in Somalia?

It's the same culture/mindset. Also, studies show that Somalia is the most corrupt country on the planet. There are indices that track this.

Excuse me while I remain cynical of western backed studies on corruption. It's almost as useless as the studies on Happiness. I'm sure the methodology makes a lot of assumptions. One being Somalia single unified entity, so comparing a country with no state or institutions to a [/QUOTE] like UK is absurd.

I get what you are saying, but most of your ideas and theories apply more towards the developed West rather than the yet-to-develop Horn. Culturally, the Horn is like in the 1600s/1700s stage of capitalism (with the West being the benchmark). Socialism only worked in the West after they managed to develop somewhat, and it worked best in the most developed regions of the West (Nordics).

Sociopolitical systems are not universal, you have to take local factors into account.

The same thing could have been said about the Pre-Soviet Union Russia during the October revolution. "Oh the Russian people are too superstitious and ignorant" "Oh the Russian peasant class are too docile and lazy" "Oh Russia is still in the fuedal era, you can't become a Socialist state without going through advanced stages of Capitalism". In fact, the theorists and historians at the time thought that Socialism would take place in Germany first, as it was the most advanced capitalist state in Europe. But Socialist revolution failed in Germany, but succeeded in Russia - an anachronistic feudal state that still had peasants, serfs and barons. Why because after the failure of the Spartacist rebellion and the abortion of the German revolution all radical elements were murdered, imprisoned or expelled from Germany by the reactionary right wing Freikorps and their Social Democratic enablers. In the meantime, Russia leapfrogged from a backward empire of peasants to a Superpower in 2 to 3 decades. A power that rivalled the US and crushed the Nazis regime.

 

[Kurolady08]

There is no moral ground for any system. We can't argue for objective morality.

There is no alternative to Capitalism. Capitalism is not a perfect system, and it has no end game. But if you regulate the market, and implement state-controlled social programs, then things would be more bearable.

But let's look at China. The Chinese have a system they call Socialism with Chinese characteristics. They realized that a perfect socialist system could only come from a well functioning body. Were all the organs (institutions) are high performing. The most rational and effective way to achieve this is through the free market.

Socialism is not possible in a small market like Somalia, and it is behind in every possible way, and it can't hope to thrive with its economy shut from outside influence and speculation, when technology is the deciding factor of who succeeds, and are creating a more globalized world. And we all know that to get access to the newest equipment, you have to more or less partake in the free market.

Nothing exists in a vacuum anymore, and people have to stop looking at a lens from the 1900s. Karl Marx criticism of capitalism was spot on, but implementing complete socialism is nearly impossible without elevating oneself through the help of the free market.

I don't like capitalism, but it's the only game in town, and we Somalis don't have the luxury to think and experiment to get a perfect system when the West and East hasn't fixed theirs with all their intellectual capacity.

On the other hand, we have lunatics like @Kurolady08 who argues for a completely unregulated market, completely ignoring that there are no incentives to do something good for the environment if it does not make a profit in such a system.

I suggest we use a better form of Capitalism until we work out a better plan on how to make a system compatible with the environment and all life on the planet. But currently, we have not the luxury or the capacity to think of a solution on how to fix the world when we are literally at the bottom. Let's be realistic here.

I personally think the idea of Socialism is a good thing, where the workers equally own the industry with the amount they produce, but no one has ever done it successfully. Socialism can only happen when capitalism is dead, and this will never be a peaceful or smooth transition.

And the Scandinavian countries are Social democratic. They are capitalist with strong social safety net regulated and controlled by the sate. People saying those countries are Socialist is ridiculous. They are capitalist because they partake in the global market.

I fully support captialism because I've seen my black side of my family succeed past their expectations in times when it was illegal for non whites to have more than Anglo Saxons. Due to them excelling at agriculture, using their looks/wits to form marketable skills to avoid chattel slavery. They also the fact that many of them could pass from different races and had different surnames to trade with and intermarry into. I don't think socialism will work on a large scale because I think it will to more fighting in the run. Socialism takes away free will and the incentive to be successful. I know it's naive, but an American. Also, there is no place for God or Allah in a communist country.

 

[Kurolady08]

@Prince Abubu . Socialism is very good only in the short term. Taxing the wealthy will only go for far because they usually end up moving. Rich people product not only goods, but jobs as well. High taxes and regulations destroy small businesses, which is bad seeing that a large percentage of Somalia's population is self employed. Huge welfare programs don't work because people become dependent on it. It takes captialism for socialism to work and it will eventually collapse on itself. Why should I open a business when I'll barely see a profit ? I get a job, when I can a have a baby and get free food and housing. Also, here in the states, a woman can't get benefits if she is married or has a man in the house.