The First Mention of Somali

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Amda Seyon invaded Ifat in the 14th century and fought Harla. No mention of Simur, so they were probably not in the north until the 15th century. We know Hawiye was confirmed in the south (Merca) by the Arab travellor in the 12th or 13th century. The saamale invaded and assimilated clans in ifat empire much like what the German nomads did to the roman empire.

we wuz Romans yo

 

[Garad]

Since this is my thread, you are the one derailing. Please either learn to read or just stay away.

I am by no means derailing this thread. As you stated:

Garaad,
The point of this thread is that there were no Samaales until long after the time of the Periplus. The dating for the formation of the Samaale clans in the 12th-13th centuries is firm. There is no reason whatsoever to think they came from the northern coast. The Periplus was written in the 1st-3rd centuries, so there is no overlap. Even the oldest Samaale abtirsi does not go back more than 800 years.

On the contrary, there is ample evidence to support a southward migration. However, instead responding to any of my points regarding them, you instead chose to degrade the significance of the region.

Anyways, Samaale clans didn't universally form in the 12th/13th century. The article you provided doesn't even assert this. What it does state is this:

"While Samaale clans commonly trace their paternal lineages to ninth century Arabian ancestors, some scholars have suggested that the Darood and Isaaq were only founded in the thirteenth century. If this is true, then the Yibir are also likely to be older than the two Samaale clans."

That's a far cry from your claim that no abtirsi goes back more than 800's years.
________
Source:
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.o...ews-in-somalia-tracing-remnants-of-the-yibir/

The principle commodities available for export from Somalia were indeed frankinense and myrrh. But both the spice and incense trades were dominated by Charibael of Himyar, who was the friend of the emperors and the principle direct trader. It was cinnamon and not frankincense that the Cinnamon Coast was known for, and that was not local. The frankincense country was the kingdom of Eleazus, on the Arabian coast, across the Gulf of Aden from the far-side ports. It sounds like the Somali product was often just added to theHimyar cargoes. Also, notice that the merchants of Socotra were not locals:

At the time of the Periplus the far side markets were indeed independent of Himyar and other nations:

"This country is not subject to a King, but each market-town is ruled by its separate chief"​

In regards to commodities, the entire Somali coast at the time produced both frankincense and myrrh, hence why the whole coast was referred to as "Aramatic Coast". On the other hand, the "Cinnamon coast" and the "Cape of Spices" referred to Cape Guardafui were they were most prevalent.

In addition, the frankincense sold on the Somali coast is often regarded as support to its Arabian counterpart; with the Arabian variations likely descending from the Somali.
___
Sources:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-GQ3BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA187&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMgP6ZkpbTAhWBfCYKHdvxDrEQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q="even after Hippalos' discovery Indian ships were not allowed by Arabians to pass Ocelis into the Red Sea, but by an understanding with the Arabians dating from very ancient times Indian ships could and did trade freely with the Somali coast;"&f=false
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=jyTFEJ56iTUC&pg=PA49&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD2c_v7eHUAhVJgj4KHX9UCaUQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q="aromatic coast"&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=_n8JfyoZDmoC&pg=PA80&dq="It+was+different+from,+and+often+superior+to,+the+Arabian"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_Nj5rOLUAhUEFT4KHS5RClEQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q="It was different from, and often superior to, the Arabian"&f=false

 

[Garad]

Amda Seyon invaded Ifat in the 14th century and fought Harla. No mention of Simur, so they were probably not in the north until the 15th century. We know Hawiye was confirmed in the south (Merca) by the Arab travellor in the 12th or 13th century. The saamale invaded and assimilated clans in ifat empire much like what the German nomads did to the roman empire.

This doesn't hold up against historical records. For example, capital city of the Sultanate of Ifat, Zeila, has historically been predominantly inhabited by Somali:

First century (Periplus):

"[....]Berbers who live in the place are very unruly[...]"​

Fourteenth Century (Ibn Battuta):

"[...]He described the inhabitants as "Barbara[...]"​

As were its ruling elite, particularly descending from a Somali saint:

Sheikh Abibakr Ba-Awali Ashanbali:

"Umar Walasma, the first to reign [...] was a descendant of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Kowneyn[...]"​

The Arabized genealogy of the Walashma is no different from most Somalis.
_______
Sources:
http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M. A. RIRASH - Effects of sixteenth century upheavals on the history of the horn.pdf
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...+Aqiil+Abuu+Taalib,+a+cousin+of+the+Prophet."

 

[Young Popeye]

This doesn't hold up against historical records. For example, capital city of the Sultanate of Ifat, Zeila, has historically been predominantly inhabited by Somali:

First century (Periplus):

"[....]Berbers who live in the place are very unruly[...]"​

Fourteenth Century (Ibn Battuta):

"[...]He described the inhabitants as "Barbara[...]"​

As were its ruling elite, particularly descending from a Somali saint:

Sheikh Abibakr Ba-Awali Ashanbali:

"Umar Walasma, the first to reign [...] was a descendant of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Kowneyn[...]"​

The Arabized genealogy of the Walashma is no different from most Somalis.
_______
Sources:
http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M. A. RIRASH - Effects of sixteenth century upheavals on the history of the horn.pdf
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...+Aqiil+Abuu+Taalib,+a+cousin+of+the+Prophet."

Your using garad which was introduced to Somalis through harla through possibly another extinct tribe like the garamante. Just cuz harla moved their capital to harar doesn't mean they weren't in zaila as well. Zaila was used to contact the Arab world for the harla. The source u quoted says according to hararis but u don't know that they don't believe aw barkhdle to be Somali nor aw abadir or the many aw's in the region not even al jabarti is Somali according to harari historians.

 

[John Michael]

Your using garad which was introduced to Somalis through harla through possibly another extinct tribe like the garamante. Just cuz harla moved their capital to harar doesn't mean they weren't in zaila as well. Zaila was used to contact the Arab world for the harla. The source u quoted says according to hararis but u don't know that they don't believe aw barkhdle to be Somali nor aw abadir or the many aw's in the region not even al jabarti is Somali according to harari historians.

Aw is a Somali title though? Barkhadle is a Somali name?


Can you explain how either could not be somalI?

 

[Grant]

I am by no means derailing this thread. As you stated:



On the contrary, there is ample evidence to support a southward migration. However, instead responding to any of my points regarding them, you instead chose to degrade the significance of the region.

Anyways, Samaale clans didn't universally form in the 12th/13th century. The article you provided doesn't even assert this. What it does state is this:

"While Samaale clans commonly trace their paternal lineages to ninth century Arabian ancestors, some scholars have suggested that the Darood and Isaaq were only founded in the thirteenth century. If this is true, then the Yibir are also likely to be older than the two Samaale clans."

That's a far cry from your claim that no abtirsi goes back more than 800's years.
________
Source:
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.o...ews-in-somalia-tracing-remnants-of-the-yibir/



At the time of the Periplus the far side markets were indeed independent of Himyar and other nations:

"This country is not subject to a King, but each market-town is ruled by its separate chief"​

In regards to commodities, the entire Somali coast at the time produced both frankincense and myrrh, hence why the whole coast was referred to as "Aramatic Coast". On the other hand, the "Cinnamon coast" and the "Cape of Spices" referred to Cape Guardafui were they were most prevalent.

In addition, the frankincense sold on the Somali coast is often regarded as support to its Arabian counterpart; with the Arabian variations likely descending from the Somali.
___
Sources:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-GQ3BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA187&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMgP6ZkpbTAhWBfCYKHdvxDrEQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q="even after Hippalos' discovery Indian ships were not allowed by Arabians to pass Ocelis into the Red Sea, but by an understanding with the Arabians dating from very ancient times Indian ships could and did trade freely with the Somali coast;"&f=false
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=jyTFEJ56iTUC&pg=PA49&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD2c_v7eHUAhVJgj4KHX9UCaUQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q="aromatic coast"&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=_n8JfyoZDmoC&pg=PA80&dq="It+was+different+from,+and+often+superior+to,+the+Arabian"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_Nj5rOLUAhUEFT4KHS5RClEQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q="It was different from, and often superior to, the Arabian"&f=false

You have neither learned to read nor stayed away. This amply debunked your arguments years ago:

.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231877480_The_Origins_of_the_Galla_and_somali

 

[Canuck]

@Grant is not historian and lived in Somalia one year during the 60s. He worked in healthcare field. And doesn't speak Somali. Most of information are from Wikipedia and old sayings.

 

[Grant]

@Grant is not historian and lived in Somalia one year during the 60s. He worked in healthcare field. And doesn't speak Somali. Most of information are from Wikipedia and old sayings.

Canuck doesn't believe historians, especially Somali historians. I don't claim to be an expert like she does, so I quote and send folks to the experts, with links. Wikipedia, just like any other source, has to be evaluated for it's references, but it's timely and an excellent place to start.

Actually, I do have a degree in history from the University of California and have been reading Somali history for over 12 years through Somnet. Her objections are xenophobic and political and have no place in this section.

 

[Menelik III]

The Yibir were in the area around Hargeysa. This is part of a larger study which suggests the Yibir were a Beta Israel group sent by Axum to control the Bab el Mandeb:

https://www.geneticliteracyproject....ews-in-somalia-tracing-remnants-of-the-yibir/

"The possibility that the Yibir community has branched out of a Beta Israel population may distantly be inferred from a medieval source that refers to a Habash queen (from what is today Ethiopia) as sending a zebra as a gift to the king of Yemen in the tenth century. This queen was no other than Judith, the ruler of the Beta Israel kingdom that sprang probably in eastern Sudan and subjugated Aksum in the ninth century. Though not precisely known by years, Judith’s reign fell between the late ninth century and early tenth century and is thought to have lasted for forty years.

Since zebras are most associated with the southern zone of the African Horn, i.e. the southern regions of Ethiopia and the plains of Somalia, it may be suggestible that Queen Judith has, at some point during her reign, expanded her kingdom’s control southward beyond the Ethiopian Highlands and into Somalia.

Could the Yibir have descended out of a Beta Israel population that migrated to Somalia during the time of Queen Judith? Is it possible that the Yibir’s ancestors were sent by the queen to control Somalia’s strategic Bab-el-Mandeb area linking the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea?"

According to the Midgan, the kingdom of Boonta would have covered most of the rest of the North. These were the Bon people:

http://www.madhibaan.org/faq/faq-history.htm

According to both, they were enslaved by the Samaales in the 12th-13th centuries.

There would also have been ajnabi and hangers-on living in coastal settlements. There is no indication of a centralized power in this period. Zoskales of Axum and Charibael of Himyar are named in the Periplus as controlling most of the territory, but no leader of a far-side port is named. Since each port was independant and apparently small, there can't have been a lot of hierarchy or organization. Since most of the trade goods were not local, there was probably only limited contact between the coastal trade and the interior. These ports existed to serve the silk road and world trade and they died when that road moved. There has never been a lot to export from the far-side coast.

Gudit (yodiet) is a zagwe queen who came from sokoto (agaw) in the simien mountains of Ethiopia. She has nothing to do with Sudan. Zagwe went on to control the territory of the Aksumite empire. Some historians also claim that she was a Aksumite who got revenge for being dethroned.

I don't believe the bete Israel have anything to do with yibir, they are most likely descend from Jewish traders (yibir).

 

[Grant]

Gudit (yodiet) is a zagwe queen who came from sokoto (agaw) in the simien mountains of Ethiopia. She has nothing to do with Sudan. Zagwe went on to control the territory of the Aksumite empire. Some historians also claim that she was a Aksumite who got revenge for being dethroned.

I don't believe the bete Israel have anything to do with yibir, they are most likely descend from Jewish traders (yibir).

I can't find where you got the Sudan in there. You are aware that the Simien Mountains were the traditional stronghold of the Falasha?

It's all conjecture at this point. The Yibir could be from either source. The important issue for this thread is that they preceded Samaales at Aw Barkhadle.

 

[Grant]

Aw is a Somali title though? Barkhadle is a Somali name?


Can you explain how either could not be somalI?

You have the story reversed. Aw Barkhadle is associated with Shaykhs Isaaq and Darood. The Yibir king is named Mohammed Hanif in some stories and Bacur Bacayr in others. The story is associated with the subjugation of the Yibir and Madhibaan and the formation of the northern Samaale clans. The site of Aw Barkhadle itself is far older than the Samaale migrations.


Jan 14 - The shrine of Aw-Barkhadle, in an ancient sacred landscape, Somaliland

The shrine of Sharif Yuusuf Barkhadle (aka Aw Barkhadle, or the "Blessed Father"), a man described as "the most outstanding saint in northern Somalia" and associated with Sheikh Ishaaq, founder of the Isaaq Somali clan, and Sheikh Daarod, founder of the Daarod Somali clan. This is close to the scene of a "myth [that] underlies the modern Somali practice of offering gifts to peripatetic Yibir soothsayers who come to lay blessings upon newborn children and newlywed couples. The story goes that when Barkhadle first settled near [here,] his eventual place of burial, he was confronted by Mohamed Hanif, a local Yibir leader who ruled the territory contrary to the laws of Islam. The 2 then decided to settle the issue of legitimacy between them with a test of mystical strength. Barkhadle challenged Hanif to traverse [or pass through] a small hill... Hanif twice successfully accomplished this task. However, during his 3rd demonstration of his powers, Barkhadle invoked the superior might of God and imprisoned his rival forever within the mountain. Orthodox Islam thus prevailed over the old pagan cult. However, Hanif's descendants are said to have subsequently demanded blood money or diyya from Barkhadle for the death of their leader and in perpetuity. Barkhadle granted them their wish, and this gave rise to the modern custom of samanyo or samayo ("birth gift"), payment made to the Yibir by their Somali patrons." (Wikipedia)

- This has been a sacred place since long before the arrival of Islam. Somewhere near here there's a pit or ditch with a stone or stones that women would sit on to gain fertility, and with chalk that they'd rub on their foreheads in the shape of a cross. (?) (I asked but noone here could point me to that pit.)

 

[John Michael]

You have the story reversed. Aw Barkhadle is associated with Shaykhs Isaaq and Darood. The Yibir king is named Mohammed Hanif in some stories and Bacur Bacayr in others. The story is associated with the subjugation of the Yibir and Madhibaan and the formation of the northern Samaale clans. The site of Aw Barkhadle itself is far older than the Samaale migrations.


Jan 14 - The shrine of Aw-Barkhadle, in an ancient sacred landscape, Somaliland

The shrine of Sharif Yuusuf Barkhadle (aka Aw Barkhadle, or the "Blessed Father"), a man described as "the most outstanding saint in northern Somalia" and associated with Sheikh Ishaaq, founder of the Isaaq Somali clan, and Sheikh Daarod, founder of the Daarod Somali clan. This is close to the scene of a "myth [that] underlies the modern Somali practice of offering gifts to peripatetic Yibir soothsayers who come to lay blessings upon newborn children and newlywed couples. The story goes that when Barkhadle first settled near [here,] his eventual place of burial, he was confronted by Mohamed Hanif, a local Yibir leader who ruled the territory contrary to the laws of Islam. The 2 then decided to settle the issue of legitimacy between them with a test of mystical strength. Barkhadle challenged Hanif to traverse [or pass through] a small hill... Hanif twice successfully accomplished this task. However, during his 3rd demonstration of his powers, Barkhadle invoked the superior might of God and imprisoned his rival forever within the mountain. Orthodox Islam thus prevailed over the old pagan cult. However, Hanif's descendants are said to have subsequently demanded blood money or diyya from Barkhadle for the death of their leader and in perpetuity. Barkhadle granted them their wish, and this gave rise to the modern custom of samanyo or samayo ("birth gift"), payment made to the Yibir by their Somali patrons." (Wikipedia)

- This has been a sacred place since long before the arrival of Islam. Somewhere near here there's a pit or ditch with a stone or stones that women would sit on to gain fertility, and with chalk that they'd rub on their foreheads in the shape of a cross. (?) (I asked but noone here could point me to that pit.)

Omg ajanabis are taking ridic fadhi ku dirir stories as historical reference.

Also how many potential fathers do isaaq and darod have. Wallahi no wonder why all these Somalis are doing DNA tests.
Who is the father.


Btw @Grant buceyr or whatever his name is, is said to be from everywhere in the Somali peninsula. There is even a footprint of his in burhakaba.

It's. Called. A. Legend.

 

[Grant]

Omg ajanabis are taking ridic fadhi ku dirir stories as historical reference.

Also how many potential fathers do isaaq and darod have. Wallahi no wonder why all these Somalis are doing DNA tests.
Who is the father.


Btw @Grant buceyr or whatever his name is, is said to be from everywhere in the Somali peninsula. There is even a footprint of his in burhakaba.

It's. Called. A. Legend.

Surprising how consistent the story is after all these years. Persistent little bugger isn't it.

 

[Menelik III]

I can't find where you got the Sudan in there. You are aware that the Simien Mountains were the traditional stronghold of the Falasha?

It's all conjecture at this point. The Yibir could be from either source. The important issue for this thread is that they preceded Samaales at Aw Barkhadle.

"This queen was no other than Judith, the ruler of the Beta Israel kingdom that sprang probably in eastern Sudan and subjugated Aksum in the ninth century."

 

[Grant]

"This queen was no other than Judith, the ruler of the Beta Israel kingdom that sprang probably in eastern Sudan and subjugated Aksum in the ninth century."

Thanks, but I still don't find it in this thread. The Beta Israel may have come from the eastern Sudan but there is no special indication Gudit did, or even for sure that she was Jewish to begin with. I know one history that says the Jews of Axum were exiled to the Semien by the first Christian Emperor of Axum, Ezana. This one says Gudit's father was Gideon IV, king of Semien. which is near the Sudanese border.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

I don't think historians have made up their minds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudit

Ethnicity
Carlo Conti Rossini first proposed that the account of this warrior queen in the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria, where she was described as Bani al-Hamwiyah, ought to be read as Bani al-Damutah, and argued that she was ruler of the once-powerful kingdom of Damot, and that she was related to one of the indigenous Sidamo peoples of southern Ethiopia.[7] This would agree with the numerous references to matriarchs ruling the Sidamo polities.[8]

If Gudit did not belong to one of the Sidamo peoples, then some scholars, based on the traditions that Gudit was Jewish, propose that she was of the Agaw people, who historically have been numerous in Lasta, and a number of whom (known as the Beta Israel), have professed an Israelite pre-Ezra Judaism since ancient times. If she was not of Hebrew, Israelite or Jewish origin, she might have been a convert to Judaism by her husband, known as Zenobis, son of the King of Šam[1][9]-one of the names of Syria- or pagan.[10] Local traditions around Adi Kaweh where she allegedly died and was buried indicate her faith was pagan-Hebraic,rather than Israelite or Jewish [Leeman 2009].

 

[John Michael]

Surprising how consistent the story is after all these years. Persistent little bugger isn't it.

I can't imagine a 70 year white Mormon using thecoli smileys. The thought is just too funny.


The internet is such a crazy beautiful place.

 

[Menelik III]

Thanks, but I still don't find it in this thread. The Beta Israel may have come from the eastern Sudan but there is no special indication Gudit did, or even for sure that she was Jewish to begin with. I know one history that says the Jews of Axum were exiled to the Semien by the first Christian Emperor of Axum, Ezana. This one says Gudit's father was Gideon IV, king of Semien. which is near the Sudanese border.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

I don't think historians have made up their minds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudit

Ethnicity
Carlo Conti Rossini first proposed that the account of this warrior queen in the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria, where she was described as Bani al-Hamwiyah, ought to be read as Bani al-Damutah, and argued that she was ruler of the once-powerful kingdom of Damot, and that she was related to one of the indigenous Sidamo peoples of southern Ethiopia.[7] This would agree with the numerous references to matriarchs ruling the Sidamo polities.[8]

If Gudit did not belong to one of the Sidamo peoples, then some scholars, based on the traditions that Gudit was Jewish, propose that she was of the Agaw people, who historically have been numerous in Lasta, and a number of whom (known as the Beta Israel), have professed an Israelite pre-Ezra Judaism since ancient times. If she was not of Hebrew, Israelite or Jewish origin, she might have been a convert to Judaism by her husband, known as Zenobis, son of the King of Šam[1][9]-one of the names of Syria- or pagan.[10] Local traditions around Adi Kaweh where she allegedly died and was buried indicate her faith was pagan-Hebraic,rather than Israelite or Jewish [Leeman 2009].

Hey don't propagate lies on Ethiopia and Ethiopian history. We know our history, no need to tell us.

 

[Canuck]

Canuck doesn't believe historians, especially Somali historians. I don't claim to be an expert like she does, so I quote and send folks to the experts, with links. Wikipedia, just like any other source, has to be evaluated for it's references, but it's timely and an excellent place to start.

Actually, I do have a degree in history from the University of California and have been reading Somali history for over 12 years through Somnet. Her objections are xenophobic and political and have no place in this section.

Your history degree is not about African history but about American/European history. Plus since you left Somalia in 60s, you didn't come back. Most of info are outdated and based depending on rumours of somnet. You didn't go to Somalia recently or have relatives living there.

 

[Grant]

Your history degree is not about African history but about American/European history. Plus since you left Somalia in 60s, you didn't come back. Most of info are outdated and based depending on rumours of somnet. You didn't go to Somalia recently or have relatives living there.

Reading history through Somnet is not the same as listening to the rumours there. Same as here, topics come up and get discussed. Links get tossed around. Judging from what passes for history here, the history available inside Somalia must be far worse than that available just on the internet. Recent Somalia sends it's best students abroad, for the simple reason educational opportunities are so limited at home. The best and most recent information hits the internet long before the streets in Merka or Jilib. I don't need to go there to have better information than a local. If I need local information that is not in the news, I can call.

Relatives inside Somalia may not be the best source of ancient history.

 

[--Ajakis Lax Max--]

Canuck doesn't believe historians, especially Somali historians. I don't claim to be an expert like she does, so I quote and send folks to the experts, with links. Wikipedia, just like any other source, has to be evaluated for it's references, but it's timely and an excellent place to start.

Actually, I do have a degree in history from the University of California and have been reading Somali history for over 12 years through Somnet. Her objections are xenophobic and political and have no place in this section.

University of somnet, a very reputable institution, especially their SuugoTaariikh department