The republic of Muqadawishukugu

[Riftvalley]

Around 27 minutes he says Muqdisho is a Swahili word. He goes onto say coastal cities were developed by the “civilised” and “free” not “desert people”. Claims Batuta did not encounter any Somalis in muqdishu and Somali arrived on the coast and Somalis arrived after the Italian came.

Barawa guy nervously laughing along even though his community have lived with Somalis in Barawa for a long time and their language is also heavily infused with Somali, as are all other dialects spoken along the coast in Marka and Muqdisho, etc.

Doesn’t challenge the Hindi guy nor does he ask him to explain why Swahili has left no traces in Muqdisho dialects?

 

[New World]

Send them back.

 

[Aurelian]

Around 27 minutes he says Muqdisho is a Swahili word. He goes onto say coastal cities were developed by the “civilised” and “free” not “desert people”. Claims Batuta did not encounter any Somalis in muqdishu and Somali arrived on the coast and Somalis arrived after the Italian came.

Barawa guy nervously laughing along even though his community have lived with Somalis in Barawa for a long time and their language is also heavily infused with Somali, as are all other dialects spoken along the coast in Marka and Muqdisho, etc.

Doesn’t challenge the Hindi guy nor does he ask him to explain why Swahili has left no traces in Muqdisho dialects?

This indians or arabs establishing Muqdisho is stupid and overused. He explained it to be the Somali way of pronouncing the swahili "the city in the eye" while in Somali, Muqdishu can be pronounced as Muuq-disho, which means "blinding beauty". Which makes more sense than a city in the eye. His batuta not meeting any Somali made his nose grow meters.

Furthermore he just claimed that Hawiyes use Ogaden name to refer to their homeland.

 

[Midas]

This indians or arabs establishing Muqdisho is stupid and overused. He explained it to be the Somali way of pronouncing the swahili "the city in the eye" while in Somali, Muqdishu can be pronounced as Muuq-disho, which means "blinding beauty". Which makes more sense than a city in the eye. His batuta not meeting any Somali made his nose grow meters.

Furthermore he just claimed that Hawiyes use Ogaden name to refer to their homeland.

I honestly find how they pedal this pseudohistory so funny. Consider that we have arabic insciriptons in mogadihsu from the 700s . And swahili is said to formed over a period from 800-1100. Yet somehow mogadishu is named after a swahili word? They also for some reason never acknowledge the fact that you have 1000 km of coast from zeila to mogadihsu with a bunch of coastal settlements


But what's funnier than all of this is that we have an entire scholarly tradition of somali ulema that we can date back to the 1200s. And we have the hagiography and biographical info of these guys from the 1300s onward and were even aware of medieval seminaries in somalia. For the swahili coast were not aware of any ulema before the 19th century.

 

[Idilinaa]

Around 27 minutes he says Muqdisho is a Swahili word. He goes onto say coastal cities were developed by the “civilised” and “free” not “desert people”.

The swahili theories are outdated bunk pseudo history. There was already Somalis living on the Southern coast all the way down to the Lamu Archipelago by the time they met Swahili speakers in Northern Kenya that was moving north and Swahili speakers didn't reach mainland Somalia.

There is updated linguistic evidence that shows this:
When Northern Swahili met Southern Somali

Then we have the perpilus historical trading document and archeological evidence that show the whole coast was settled by natives more than 2 thousands years back that carried out a similar agro-pastoral lifestyle and trading.


Funny he says the coastal cities were not developed by desert people when you consider the fact that the coast of Mogadishu and Barawa is a literal desert covered in sand dunes and no real immediate zero resources and it's immediate surroundings are unsuitable for cultivation.

The interior is actually fertile with forests, grassland and woodland and rivers.

The coastal villages, towns and cities were developed as a commercial outlet for the interior and it's the interior agro-pastoral population that would develop it and open up for trade .

The earliest mentions of Mogadishu/Merca in medieval sources paints the same picture, connecting it to it's hinterland and describing the 50 farming villages along the banks of the river.

Claims Batuta did not encounter any Somalis in muqdishu and Somali arrived on the coast and Somalis arrived after the Italian came.

Ibn Batuta's own writings actually supports early Somali settlements on the coast. He not only says the Sultan in Mogadishu is a Barbar and but also says that the citizens have many camels and sheep (indicating pastoral orientation), it actually gives the town a localized native picture.

His name is Abu Bakr son of shaikh 'Umar. He is in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi [Somali?], but he knows the Arabic tongue.

[to Mogadishu] a town endless in its size. Its people have many camels, of which they slaughter hundreds every day and they have many sheep. Its people are powerful merchants. In it are manufactured cloths named after it which have no rival, and are transported as far as Egypt and elsewhere.

He also gives a definition to what he means by ''Barbar'' and says that they are black people that inhabit the coast all the way down from Zeila and ends in Mogadishu and they have many camels and sheep. Same as how he describes mogadishu the city, so you can see it's just connected to a native cultural landscape. It's never described as an enclave by people from elsewhere

I arrived at the city of Zeila, the city of the Barbar, who are a people of the blacks; Shafi'i [following Sunni Muslim laws] by rite. Their country is a desert which extends for two months' journey, its beginning is at Zeila and its ending is at Mogadishu. Their livestock are camels and their sheep are famed for their fatness. The inhabitants are black in color and the majority are Rejecters

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He also provides linguistic evidence that Mogadishu population spoke Somali, when , mentions their words for certain fruits in the Maqdisihi language.

As well as describes Mogadishu organized under the Somali ''abaan'' institution which is a local commericial practice that is used from north to south.

Barawa guy nervously laughing along even though his community have lived with Somalis in Barawa for a long time and their language is also heavily infused with Somali, as are all other dialects spoken along the coast in Marka and Muqdisho, etc.

Doesn’t challenge the Hindi guy nor does he ask him to explain why Swahili has left no traces in Muqdisho dialects?

The southern coastal Somali dialects are big proof they that they were majority inhabited by Somalis at a very early date.

Also there is zero evidence of any substratum. If Somalis came to a coastal area that was already inhabited by a seperate group of people later on. We would essentially be placing ourselves on top of them, like how Habeshas are influenced by South Arabian immigrants and now speak a semetic addstrate but with a cushitic substatum that points to Agaw and others were there before. Non of that is evidenced in the Southern Somali Dialects

 

[Idilinaa]

They also for some reason never acknowledge the fact that you have 1000 km of coast from zeila to mogadihsu with a bunch of coastal settlements

Also the southern coastal cities have smaller native villages intervening them, communities such as Gezeira, Nimow, Aw Make, Danane, Gendershe, and Gelib-Merca.

Think about it further with all the foreign engagements Somalia received in the 1800s the Omani/Zanzibari, Ottoman/Egypt Khedive, Europeans etc and yet it was only Somalis who established new coastal ports and settlements that some later grew to become prominent towns and cities.

It's intellectually dishonest to think that this would be any different back in 1300s, despite the clear evidence that point to the contrary. There is key geographical reasons i stated in the other post that makes the coast just an outlet for the production of the interior.

 

[Midas]

The swahili theories are outdated bunk pseudo history. There was already Somalis living on the Southern coast all the way down to the Lamu Archipelago by the time they met Swahili speakers in Northern Kenya that was moving north and Swahili speakers didn't reach mainland Somalia.

There is updated linguistic evidence that shows this:
When Northern Swahili met Southern Somali
View attachment 353256

Then we have the perpilus historical trading document and archeological evidence that show the whole coast was settled by natives more than 2 thousands years back that carried out a similar agro-pastoral lifestyle and trading.


Funny he says the coastal cities were not developed by desert people when you consider the fact that the coast of Mogadishu and Barawa is a literal desert covered in sand dunes and no real immediate zero resources and it's immediate surroundings are unsuitable for cultivation.

The interior is actually fertile with forests, grassland and woodland and rivers.

The coastal villages, towns and cities were developed as a commercial outlet for the interior and it's the interior agro-pastoral population that would develop it and open up for trade .
View attachment 353251

View attachment 353252


The earliest mentions of Mogadishu/Merca in medieval sources paints the same picture, connecting it to it's hinterland and describing the 50 farming villages along the banks of the river.
View attachment 353254





Ibn Batuta's own writings actually supports early Somali settlements on the coast. He not only says the Sultan in Mogadishu is a Barbar and but also says that the citizens have many camels and sheep (indicating pastoral orientation), it actually gives the town a localized native picture.

His name is Abu Bakr son of shaikh 'Umar. He is in origin from the Barbara, and his speech is Maqdishi [Somali?], but he knows the Arabic tongue.

[to Mogadishu] a town endless in its size. Its people have many camels, of which they slaughter hundreds every day and they have many sheep. Its people are powerful merchants. In it are manufactured cloths named after it which have no rival, and are transported as far as Egypt and elsewhere.

He also gives a definition to what he means by ''Barbar'' and says that they are black people that inhabit the coast all the way down from Zeila and ends in Mogadishu and they have many camels and sheep. Same as how he describes mogadishu the city, so you can see it's just connected to a native cultural landscape. It's never described as an enclave by people from elsewhere

I arrived at the city of Zeila, the city of the Barbar, who are a people of the blacks; Shafi'i [following Sunni Muslim laws] by rite. Their country is a desert which extends for two months' journey, its beginning is at Zeila and its ending is at Mogadishu. Their livestock are camels and their sheep are famed for their fatness. The inhabitants are black in color and the majority are Rejecters

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He also provides linguistic evidence that Mogadishu population spoke Somali, when , mentions their words for certain fruits in the Maqdisihi language.
View attachment 353248


As well as describes Mogadishu organized under the Somali ''abaan'' institution which is a local commericial practice that is used from north to south.
View attachment 353249




The southern coastal Somali dialects are big proof they that they were majority inhabited by Somalis at a very early date.
View attachment 353255


Also there is zero evidence of any substratum. If Somalis came to a coastal area that was already inhabited by a seperate group of people later on. We would essentially be placing ourselves on top of them, like how Habeshas are influenced by South Arabian immigrants and now speak a semetic addstrate but with a cushitic substatum that points to Agaw and others were there before. Non of that is evidenced in the Southern Somali Dialects


View attachment 353258

Imagine how large a medieval city would have to be for hundreds of camels (the most expense livestock) to be slaughtered daily? The pouplation must have been in the tens of thousands. The decline of mogadishu and aden are honestly mind boggling. Aden went From 80,000 people at the peak of the rasulid dynasty. To a tiny village of 600 people in the early 1800s.

 

[Varriris]

He also provides linguistic evidence that Mogadishu population spoke Somali, when , mentions their words for certain fruits in the Maqdisihi language.
View attachment 353248


As well as describes Mogadishu organized under the Somali ''abaan'' institution which is a local commericial practice that is used from north to south.
View attachment 353249




The southern coastal Somali dialects are big proof they that they were majority inhabited by Somalis at a very early date.
View attachment 353255


Also there is zero evidence of any substratum. If Somalis came to a coastal area that was already inhabited by a seperate group of people later on. We would essentially be placing ourselves on top of them, like how Habeshas are influenced by South Arabian immigrants and now speak a semetic addstrate but with a cushitic substatum that points to Agaw and others were there before. Non of that is evidenced in the Southern Somali Dialects


View attachment 353258

More linguistic evidence that the language of Muqdisho was af-somali:

”An Indian traveler, roughly a century before Ibn Battuta, mentions the word for the 'Caracal' animal in the language of Mogadishu, and it matches the modern Somali word for the animal. He notes that in the Barbar language, the caracal is called Kaduud or Gaduud. In Somali, it is referred to as Gaduudane. This is clear evidence that Ibn Battuta's "Maqdishi" language was indeed Somali, highlighting the continuity between Medieval and Modern Af Soomaali.”

x.com

x.com

 

[Idilinaa]

More linguistic evidence that the language of Muqdisho was af-somali:

”An Indian traveler, roughly a century before Ibn Battuta, mentions the word for the 'Caracal' animal in the language of Mogadishu, and it matches the modern Somali word for the animal. He notes that in the Barbar language, the caracal is called Kaduud or Gaduud. In Somali, it is referred to as Gaduudane. This is clear evidence that Ibn Battuta's "Maqdishi" language was indeed Somali, highlighting the continuity between Medieval and Modern Af Soomaali.”

x.com

x.com

I shared it in my thread in this thread: https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somali-agricultural-revolution-900-1600s.172550/
One thing you will notice is how much Muslim medieval writers would talk about Mogadishu being supplied with abundant native agricultural produce and it's exotic wild life.

There is also epigraphic evidence the fact that there are local Mogadishu tombs, those without a nisba(al-etc) specifically with Somali calendar names written on them dating back to the 1300s

And Somali calendar names are seen on medieval tomb inscriptions in Mogadishu that date from year 1365

It is something pointed out by an Italian writer named Enrico Cerulli:

On another tomb of this group we read The weak hopeful servant and forgiveness of his gracious Lord, the Hagg Yusuf Ibn Abu Bakr Ibn Hagg Da'ud, died on the fourth Monday of the month of du al-higgah of the year Saturday after seven hundred and sixty-six years from the Hegira of the Prophet. God's blessings be on the Prophet. Corresponds to! 22 August 1365.

The inscription is particularly important, as it counts the first mention of the Somali year in use alongside the Muslim year also in the coastal centers. With <the year Saturday> we mean the first year of the Somali seven-year cycle. of the inscription and from referring to meaning by the Prophet, as in the inscription n. X. It should be noted that a similar expression can also be found in an Arabic text from East Africa, published by Becker who says verbatim speaking of a Muslim saint

 

[Riftvalley]

This indians or arabs establishing Muqdisho is stupid and overused. He explained it to be the Somali way of pronouncing the swahili "the city in the eye" while in Somali, Muqdishu can be pronounced as Muuq-disho, which means "blinding beauty". Which makes more sense than a city in the eye. His batuta not meeting any Somali made his nose grow meters.

Furthermore he just claimed that Hawiyes use Ogaden name to refer to their homeland.

lQUOTE="Aurelian, post: 4244519, member: 7097"]
This indians or arabs establishing Muqdisho is stupid and overused. He explained it to be the Somali way of pronouncing the swahili "the city in the eye" while in Somali, Muqdishu can be pronounced as Muuq-disho, which means "blinding beauty". Which makes more sense than a city in the eye. His batuta not meeting any Somali made his nose grow meters.

Furthermore he just claimed that Hawiyes use Ogaden name to refer to their homeland.
[/QUOTE]

No one can really say for certain what the etymology of Muqdisho is. Aside from the theory you mentioned and the Maqcad shah one, there is another theory which says it comes from “muq” and disho referencing the abundance of meat slaughtered in the town.

The colonials mainly relied on the likes of Shariff Ayadarus who seem to have passed on these claims about the seat of the Shah etc which he collected from local oral history and some “manuscripts” with no academic citations given. From Maqcad Shah>Muqdisho is a big jump linguistic and we don’t really have any evidence of a Shah controlling Muqdisho. And a Persian descent ruler at one point in time is very different from the Shah having a royal seat/tributary in Muqdisho. The city was controlled by council of elders and then later by local Sultans.

As for Xamar, again the idea that it came from the Arabic word for the colour Red was passed onto to western academics by Shariff Aydarus et al. The story is about a man and woman travelling on some camel, discovering the town and calling it “Axmar”. These stories are no different to other Somali oral stories and the use of camels is another interesting reference, just as Ibn Batuta finding large numbers of camels being slaughtered are. This would tell you how integrated the people from the interior and coastal cities were.

There are localities btw called “Geed Xamar”in the Somali peninsula , one of them being in Puntland. We also found the word as a Somali name “Xamare Somali”, one of the sons of Samaale. Since both Barawa and Marka have Somali etymologies,
I don’t understand why some think it is impossible for Xamar to have been a name given to the site by the locals centuries prior to any migrants arriving. Even if one says the Arabs/Persians contributed to the development of the town, one can not rule out a local etymology for Xamar, as the site was most likely used as a trading point since antiquity like other coastal town around southern Somalia.

We can definitely rule out a Swahili origin though. Only presence of Swahili in Somalia is in the small area of Barawa. The Bajunis he cited were also a small community and some of their clans cite a Somali origin. I am astounded a professor of Bantu linguistics such as Mr Lodhi would make these laughable claims. I am more disappointed in the Barawani brother for sitting there and not interjecting when the prof. claimed Somalis weren’t on the coast until the Italians came.