Btw , I made an error : the cairns and the archeological sites discovered around the Wajir area most likely belong to a Proto Sam or Somaliod Eastern Cushitic group . Some of the cairns and burial sites discovered in Northern Tanzania by the ancestors of the Iraqw are different to the burial sites found in South Somalia ( now referred to as Northern Kenya ). I will touch on the Madanle people of Southern Somalia and the decline of the Cushitic reign in Kenya /Tanzania at another point .
The tall people of ancient Azania
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James Dahl
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The original inhabitants of East Africa all the way down to southern Tanzania were clearly Cushitic people closely related to Somalis, all the historical and archaeological evidence points to this.
World
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From Sudan to Tanzania
Sudan was then invaded by Nilotes and then Arabs
Northern Ethiopia and Eritrea by Southern Semites
Half of Kenya and Tanzania by Nilotes and Bantus.
Khoisan?
XoosBoos
Hiraab Commander
Their ancesteral land is in South-west Africa, oldest evidence of their hunter gatherer heritage is found in Namibia. Also they never settled permanentely in their hunting grounds.
James Dahl
VIP
There is no evidence of this at all, the cited evidence is literally click sounds in South Kushitic languages
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Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/
by O Semino - 2002 - Cited by 203 - Related articles
Nov 20, 2001 - The present study reveals that (1) only the Ethiopians share with the Khoisan the deepest human Y-chromosome clades (the African-specific Groups I and ..... Torroni A, Semino O, Scozzari R, Sirugo G, Spedini G, Abbas N, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS (1990) Y chromosome DNA polymorphisms in human ...
Humanity's forgotten return to Africa revealed in DNA | New Scientist
https://www.newscientist.com/.../dn24988-humanitys-forgotten-return-to-africa-reveal...
Feb 3, 2014 - Dating methods suggested they made their way into the Khoisan DNA sometime between 900 and 1800 years ago – well before known European contact with ... a 2012 study by Luca Pagani of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, UK, which found non-African genes in people living in Ethiopia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Sub-Saharan_Africa
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James Dahl
VIP
These studies are really old, look at the date on the first one, 2002. The A lineages in Ethiopia are confirmed to be Nubian origin, not Khoisan.
These citations also disprove your own case. The A lineages in western Ethiopia are from Shanqalla and Nubian origin people, Cushitic people even in southern Tanzania have E1b lineages.
Like I said before there's no evidence for it, other than clicking, but some reconstructions of ancient Cushitic has click sounds.
These citations also disprove your own case. The A lineages in western Ethiopia are from Shanqalla and Nubian origin people, Cushitic people even in southern Tanzania have E1b lineages.
Like I said before there's no evidence for it, other than clicking, but some reconstructions of ancient Cushitic has click sounds.
Grant , stop at once with the DNA hijacking of threads .
James,
Mota man is E1b1, linked to the Ari, other Ethiopians and East Africans. There is no Cushitic in him. The Eyle of Somalia, who sit on the oldest archaeological record so far found there, are said to be Negroid. The Khoe showed up in South Africa roughly 2000 years ago with Levantine sheep and short-horned cattle from the Horn coastal strip. They came from somewhere north of Tanzania, so go figure.
Where did the Shanqalla and Nubians get their "A" and how is that "A" not linked to the Khoisan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_A_(Y-DNA)
"Africa —Eastern
Haplogroup A3b2-M13 is common among the Southern Sudanese (53%),[17] especially the Dinka Sudanese (61.5%).[25] Haplogroup A3b2-M13 also has been observed in another sample of a South Sudanese population at a frequency of 45% (18/40), including 1/40 A3b2a-M171.[18] Haplogroup A also has been reported in 14.6% (7/48) of an Amhara sample,[22] 10.3% (8/78) of an Oromo sample,[22] 13.6% (12/88) of another sample from Ethiopia,[18] and 41% of a sample of the Beta Israel (Cruciani et al. 2002), and important percentages are also shared by Bantus in Kenya (14%, Luis et al. 2004) and Iraqw in Tanzania (3/43 = 7.0% (Luis et al. 2004) to 1/6 = 17% (Knight et al. 2003))."
"Study population Freq.
(in %)
[15] Tsumkwe San (Namibia) 66%
[15] Nama (Namibia) 64
[17] Dinka (Sudan) 62
[17] Shilluk (Sudan) 53
[17] Nuba (Sudan) 46
[18] Khoisan 44
[19][20] Ethiopian Jews 41
[15][19] !Kung/Sekele ~40
[17] Borgu (Sudan) 35
[17] Nuer (Sudan) 33
[17] Fur (Sudan) 31
[15] Maasai (Kenya) 27
[21] Nara (Eritrea) 20
[17] Masalit (Sudan) 19
[15][22] Amhara (Ethiopia) ~16
[18] Ethiopians 14
[23] Bantu (Kenya) 14
[15] Mandara (Cameroon) 14
[17] Hausa (Sudan) 13
[19] Khwe (South Africa) 12
[19] Fulbe (Cameroon) 12
[15] Dama (Namibia) 11
[22] Oromo (Ethiopia) 10
[21] Kunama (Eritrea) 10
[15] South Semitic (Ethiopia) 10
[23] Arabs (Egypt) 3"
Wish you would clarify the issues Anonimo brought up with respect to E-V-32 and E-V-13.
OP,
Just how does one "hijack" a thread with pertinent DNA evidence? If you have something to say, you can get back to the Azanians any time you like.
James Dahl
VIP
The A lineages you're talking about are hundreds of thousands of years old, older than all the language families. There is no link whatsoever between Nilotic languages and Khoisan languages. I don't even know what your argument is anymore. Were there an ancient people who lived in southern Somalia prior to the arrival of Cushitic people? Maybe? Were they Khoisan speakers? Definitely not.
Khoikhoi and San are both very much the product of ancient Southern Africa, but they are a distinct people with their own history, they are not ancient humans frozen in time. The treatment of these tribes as some weird relic out of time is very strange.
The thing you have to keep in mind is that during the ice age, Somalia was uninhabitable. It was a brutal true desert until 10,000 years ago. 10,000 years ago the climate shifted and Somalia became grasslands much wetter than today, which is when Cushitic migration from the north moved down and colonized the newly habitable land, so there is a VERY GOOD PROBABILITY that the ancestors of Somalis were the very first humans to colonize Somalia.
Khoikhoi and San are both very much the product of ancient Southern Africa, but they are a distinct people with their own history, they are not ancient humans frozen in time. The treatment of these tribes as some weird relic out of time is very strange.
The thing you have to keep in mind is that during the ice age, Somalia was uninhabitable. It was a brutal true desert until 10,000 years ago. 10,000 years ago the climate shifted and Somalia became grasslands much wetter than today, which is when Cushitic migration from the north moved down and colonized the newly habitable land, so there is a VERY GOOD PROBABILITY that the ancestors of Somalis were the very first humans to colonize Somalia.
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He can't.
Like I said, he got his E's mixed up, no need to probe further.
Signed
Jamacatul DNA.
James Dahl
VIP
I missed that further up the thread, you're right I was writing from memory and was thinking of M78 not V32, the immediate ancestor
James,
The Khoe are part of a recent (2kya) migration from the north that carries even Neanderthal DNA.
https://mg.co.za/article/2016-02-04-the-origins-of-the-khoisan-disprove-notions-of-race
"About 140 000 years ago human populations from East or Central Africa moved southwards and “colonise” western southern Africa. The probable nearest living relatives of these source populations are:
- The Hadzabe people from north-central Tanzania; and
- Mbuti pygmies from the eastern Congo.
This migration gave rise to the present-day San hunter-gatherers.
Much more recently – about 2 000 years ago – there was a second movement of “colonists” from the north into southwestern Africa. They gave rise to the pastoral Khoikhoi people.
This second group of “settlers” carried within its genome bits of Eurasian-sourced – and even some Neanderthal – DNA derived from European humans who had returned to Africa about 3 000 years ago.
Subsequent to this second colonisation, there was intermixing between the Khoikhoi and San. This gave rise to their close anatomical similarities despite the fact that they retained their marked cultural and linguistic differences.
Much more recently – about 1 700 years ago – there was a third major north-to-south migration. This time it was the Bantu-speaking, black Africans into south-eastern Africa. Those “settlers” that eventually became the Xhosa peoples moved westwards and encountered the Khoikhoi, whom they drove further west and intermixed with genetically."
Also, you didn't read this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/#RF25
"In conclusion, the present study underscores the complexity and substructure of the Ethiopian Y-chromosome gene pool. First, the presence of different Y-chromosome haplotypes belonging to African-specific Group I in all groups of Ethiopians and in the Khoisan (at frequencies of ∼13% and 44%, respectively) confirms that these populations share an ancestral paternity, as was previously suggested by the 49a,f data (Passarino et al. 1998), and it indicates that Group I was part of the proto-African Y-chromosome gene pool. The virtual absence of this clade in the other African ethnic groups suggests that they could derive from a more recent ancestral population that went through a long period of differentiation before expansion. In addition, Group II, the next closest to the NRY genealogy root and typically an African group, is shared by Ethiopians and the Khoisan but to a lesser degree. In the case of Group II, the split responsible for the differences observed between Ethiopian and Khoisan haplotypes is also old. Second, most of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes, the rest of the Khoisan Y chromosomes, and the majority of the Senegalese Y chromosomes belong to Group III, which is also mainly African but whose precursor is believed to be involved in the first migration out of Africa (Underhill et al. 2001). Third, the remainder of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes (Groups VI, VIII, and IX) may be explained by back migrations from Asia."
according to Somali oral history , the Madanle, the people who left the behind the cairns and built impressive irrigation systems were defeated by the Dabarre ( Rahanweyn clan ) and possibly some other clans including the Ajuuraan. It is also interesting to note Madanle appears in Somali genealogy . I believe the Madanle were probably the Southernmost Somalis at one point in time ( or Somaliods ) and were also related to the people that became Garre , Ajuuraan and some sections of Remdille . The Somalis creating Quraish lineages makes harder to ascertain how the Madanle were related to the local people .
In the folklore of the people in that region the Madanle seem to have been noted for their height , water irrigation systems and in some myths , their lighter skin . One bizzare Somali tradition refers to them as Banu Israel.
Monty Brown,Where Giants Trod (1989):
In the folklore of the people in that region the Madanle seem to have been noted for their height , water irrigation systems and in some myths , their lighter skin . One bizzare Somali tradition refers to them as Banu Israel.
Monty Brown,Where Giants Trod (1989):
"Significantly, no pottery was found, a notable distinction between them and the contents of the Wajir and Mandera cairns. Moreover, all the skeletons were found lying on their sides in a contracted position, contrasting with the style of burial in the Wajir area, where the skeletons were found in a sitting position. One may guess from these differing body positions and grave artifacts that the people who once lived in the Wair area either were a different race from the Chalbi Desert dwellers, or, if from the same stock, the Wajir section may have experienced outside influence which had not penetrated to the interior. But were they the skeletons of the long dead giants? Out of five complete skeletons unearthed at Kalacha one was six foot two inches (1.9 metres) tall, and three were six foot four inches (1.95 metres). Even allowing for a small shrinkage of the bones as a result of dehydration, and the effect of a flesh covering on the skeletons when alive, it may be assumed that none of those people could have been much over six foot five inches (1.97 metres) in stature. But that was no mean height when compared with the comparatively short present-day dweller of northern Kenya. Furthermore, had those ancient men possessed a physique matching their stature, they would most certainly have appeared as an impressively large people to outsiders of smaller size.
One last question arose: how old were the skeletons? On the bones being subjected to the process of radio-carbon dating, the tests, as hoped, disclosed valuable new facts. Of particular interest was the establishment of a series of age groups for the three type of cairns. The ring cairns were proved to be the youngest, two of them dating from five hundred years before, followed by the platform cairns aged at nearly one thousand years, and the oldest, the mound cairn, placed at three and a half thousand years old. It is not altogether satisfactory to draw conclusions from such scant evidence; but the indisputable fact is that all the cairns are of considerable age, and only further research will prove whether all mound cairns are of the same vintage as the single specimen examined, and therefore the oldest by far, or whether the ring cairns are really the youngest. Whatever the findings of future investigations, one thing is clear: the giants of lore, assuming they were those people buried under the cairns, were indeed of ancient stock. And so, despite all the evidence accumulated over nearly a century of observations and scientific investigation, an element of uncertainty still hangs over the true nature of the mythical giants of tribal tales. That they once existed there is no doubt, for the cairns have produced their bones, and though they were not giants in the real sense, they were considerably larger than the present dwellers in their former lands. The evidence proves, however, that they did live many hundreds, even thousands of years ago. Although many erudite observers and scholars have considered how the giants may have originated, from which direction they arrived, and to where they ultimately departed, one thing remains clear: there is still a mystery surrounding the long-gone people of the north, which may never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. No one as yet has been able to state emphatically who the ancient Madanle and their ilk may have been, and in so failing have allowed the fantasies of tribal lore to live on."
Mysterious Ancient Ruins Of Engaruka – Why Was The Site Abandoned?
Located in the Great Rift Valley of northern Tanzania, today there are nothing but ruins left of what was once an Iron Age farming community.
Researchers have tried to unravel the mystery of why people living in Engaruka abandoned the site centuries ago. The ancient ruins of Engaruka remind us of how vulnerable our world is to climate changes.
What once may have been one of the biggest inland centers in eastern Africa is now a quiet corner of Tanzania.
Engaurka is considered one of the most important archaeological sites in the Great Lakes region. Today it is a dry, dusty, and sterile place, but it was once a vast irrigated landscape.
The site has long been a mystery to archaeologists. Who were the inhabitants of Engaruka? How did they develop such a sophisticated farming system and why did they suddenly abandon the site?
The mysterious ruins of Engaruka were discovered in 1883 by Dr. Gustav Fischer, a German explorer of Africa. Dr.Fischer said they resembled tumbled-down walls of ancient castles. Later, in 1896, Drs Scoeller and Kaiser mentioned the ruins of “Ngaruku” including great stone circles and dams. It was not until 1913 that an archaeological survey took place in the region, but the lack of burial sites made it very difficult to determine who created Engaruka.
Modern archaeologists assume that Engaruka was built by ancestors of the Iraqw, a Cushitic-speaking ethnic group inhabiting the Great Lakes region of East Africa. They live in the Arusha and Manyara regions of north-central Tanzania, near the Rift Valley wall and south of Ngorongoro Crater.
The modern Iraqw practice an intensive form of self-contained agriculture that bears a remarkable similarity to the ruins of stone-walled canals, dams and furrows that are found at Engaruka.
Could they have been Watutsi? Those people are really huge!
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