Understanding Somali Genetics

[Shimbiris]

The lack of diversity @Shimbiris

@giire12 Ina adeer, you must be one dhega cas looking Lander, almost as Eurasian as my mixed son
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?? What in the name of cherrypicking is this nonsense? 90% of the samples you've displayed are just the typical Puntland samples from all the studies then it's you, your dad, some Marehan, some southerner and a couple of clearly outliers from the northwest? This is your idea of diversity? Niyahow, stop being silly and @-ing me in such things.

Our Garaad's diversity:

I've seen hundreds of samples from all the regions since before you even entered the population genetics sphere and yes; 90%+ of Somalis cluster pretty tightly regardless of region in terms of MENA to SSA scores as the above pretty much imparts, and you know it. Sorry @The alchemist and myself ruined your "uber Arabian ancestry diversity" belief in that other thread but don't bother me with this kind of nonsense again, please.

 

[Rayaale]

?? What in the name of cherrypicking is this nonsense? 90% of the samples you've displayed are just the typical Puntland samples from all the studies then it's you, your dad, some Marehan, some southerner and a couple of clearly outliers from the northwest? This is your idea of diversity? Niyahow, stop being silly and @-ing me in such things.

Our Garaad's diversity:

I've seen hundreds of samples from all the regions since before you even entered the population genetics sphere and yes; 90%+ of Somalis cluster pretty tightly regardless of region in terms of MENA to SSA scores as the above pretty much imparts, and you know it. Sorry @The alchemist and myself ruined your "uber Arabian ancestry diversity" belief in that other thread but don't bother me with this kind of nonsense again, please.

He’s fighting for 3% Arabian dna

 

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Spoiler: My results

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Can you try this for me if I give my cords?

 

[Fez]

Can you try this for me if I give my cords?

Post it

 

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Post it

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[Garaad Awal]

Ina adeer, I was even more surprised, your child Eurasian is around 3 % higher than mine. I am assuming his maternal side has alot of tawariq north african berber. Northern high mountains Amazigh have significant Eurasian compared to Sourthern Amazigh and tawariq (Tuareg) but the southerns have higher Arabian. So maybe it averaged out to 55% for your child. I was assuming his 65 to 70% Eurasian. I did simple mathematics, lets say he has 19% Eurasian from your side (38% × 50%), that leaves 37% from his maternal side, so his maternal side is 74% Eurasian (37×2).

His mother considering IBM’s ANA ancestry & West African ancestry is only around 80% MENA. Perhaps only 75% True West Eurasian removing ANA from the Natufians as well.

As for me, wallahi I look like any other Somali, it's only at work Eritreans at first speak with me tigrenya, i have to tell them i'm somali. Genetics is funny, some of my siblings look like olive skin yemenis the rest are typical horn africans like me. Your son probably looks like a light skin yemani or a North Sudanese tribes that mixed with Egyptians, places like Aswan.

Phenotype definitely doesn’t correlate with genetics sometimes as I mostly get mistakened as a Northern Horner and sometimes Sudanese/Egyptian-Nubian. Despite being far less West Eurasian than them.

My son looks like a Somali influenced Southern Maghrebi from the Sahara. He is quite light skinned with dark brown curly hair.

 

[Fez]

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Iley,-0.0283,0.009,-0.0071,-0.0213,0.0029,-0.0116,-0.0105,0.0025,0.0574,-0.0463,-0.006,-0.0038,0.0018,-0.0049,0.0162,-0.006,0.0236,-0.0012,0.0054,-0.0015,0.0013,0.0116,-0.0009996,0.003,0.0022

Spoiler

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Ty, and also by standards I would be considered to be southern, but then again my results are very similar to galmudug samples

 

[giire12]

His mother considering IBM’s ANA ancestry & West African ancestry is only around 80% MENA. Perhaps only 75% True West Eurasian removing ANA from the Natufians as well.

Phenotype definitely doesn’t correlate with genetics sometimes as I mostly get mistakened as a Northern Horner and sometimes Sudanese/Egyptian-Nubian. Despite being far less West Eurasian than them.

My son looks like a Somali influenced Southern Maghrebi from the Sahara. He is quite light skinned with dark brown curly hair.

Mashallah ina adeer, ilahi ubadka haku xifdiyo. Your analysis is supported with evidence which is why I was always intrigued to see where your research ends up. I will also add one point ignored by many DNA centralised theory of thought people. I am talking about many on this forum who are too stubborn to adjust their theory when presented with new evidence.

Here is my point of concern. There are many outliers appearing all of a sudden. Before, it was rare, but my recent research I privately did suggested there is far more diversity appearing recently. My second concern is the sample size of Somali:Somalia, Somali:Ethiopia and Somali:Kenya. What is this Somali n=2, Somali n=6, Somali n=12 and etc? Is it individual sample or a group of regional sample? All of these need to be answered.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Here is my point of concern. There are many outliers appearing all of a sudden. Before, it was rare, but my recent research I privately did suggested there is far more diversity appearing recently. My second concern is the sample size of Somali:Somalia, Somali:Ethiopia and Somali:Kenya. What is this Somali n=2, Somali n=6, Somali n=12 and etc? Is it individual sample or a group of regional sample? All of these need to be answered.

These averages are collected by a former user from the forum Anthrogenica. I’m pretty sure the two “Ethiopia” samples are two Ashraaf (son & mother). So they definitely don’t represent that large and diverse region from the Northern Ciise in Sitti to the Garre of Moyale.

 

[Garaad Awal]

?? What in the name of cherrypicking is this nonsense? 90% of the samples you've displayed are just the typical Puntland samples from all the studies then it's you, your dad, some Marehan, some southerner and a couple of clearly outliers from the northwest? This is your idea of diversity? Niyahow, stop being silly and @-ing me in such things.

Our Garaad's diversity:

I've seen hundreds of samples from all the regions since before you even entered the population genetics sphere and yes; 90%+ of Somalis cluster pretty tightly regardless of region in terms of MENA to SSA scores as the above pretty much imparts, and you know it. Sorry @The alchemist and myself ruined your "uber Arabian ancestry diversity" belief in that other thread but don't bother me with this kind of nonsense again, please.

Sudanese and IBM lol, your model is flawed. Why are you using a modern Somali as a reference when we have ancient Pastoral_N samples that are definitively known to lack any Arabian ancestry? Even the model you presented fails to demonstrate homogeneity, as both “Sudanese” and IBM exhibit significant individual variation.
Somali genetic diversity is shaped by two components, Mota and IA Arabian, with regional differences influencing their proportions.

 

[Shimbiris]

Just to be clear, 99% of the "diversity" our Garaad has been going on about is the variation in Yemeni and other more "recent" ancestral components in G25 which is fake:

That's how homogenous Somalis look when you look at the actual MENA (Natufian, Jawf Yemeni, IBM) and SSA (Mota, Dinka) scores. Once you ignore the Kenyans who have a handful of Borana admixed outliers among them, that's seriously a variation of ~2% from the northwest to the northeast to the south and Kenya. So diverse, wallahi. Now, look at these Puntlanders:

Yet when you break down the components for a group like the Puntlanders above you suddenly get the "diversity" our Garaad is talking about 99% of the time:

This is obviously not actual diversity like what genuinely exists among Oromos where even admixture levels vary significantly:

Keep in mind that those Puntlanders are the same Somalis used in most of the studies out there and the same Somalis who have such homogenous and bottlenecked ancestry that they form the Ethio-Somali component at the higher Ks in ADMIXTURE:

There's absolutely nothing "diverse" about their structure. It's just G25 being wonky in the ways I've explained in other threads. It's completely impossible for them to have such tightly clustering overall MENA to SSA scores, form an ADMIXTURE component and be diverse in the more recent components like Jawf-Yemeni like that. Not how recombination and genetics in general works. The recent components in G25 and nMonte are just being skewed by various mechanisms like drift and can even be normalized by structuring your models in other ways as @The alchemist has shown.

And this is generally 99% it in terms of our Garaad's argument. Pretending this fake diversity makes us basically like Oromos or something. Well, that and the 1% where he is using people who occasionally pop up on forums like these because they have stories of admixture in their family (outliers) and acts like they're somehow common cases when they're not. This is a silly subject driven by qabiilism and I'm gonna leave it at that.

 

[Lightshow]

Just to be clear, 99% of the "diversity" our Garaad has been going on about is the variation in Yemeni and other more "recent" ancestral components in G25 which is fake:

That's how homogenous Somalis look when you look at the actual MENA (Natufian, Jawf Yemeni, IBM) and SSA (Mota, Dinka) scores. Once you ignore the Kenyans who have a handful of Borana admixed outliers among them, that's seriously a variation of ~2% from the northwest to the northeast to the south and Kenya. So diverse, wallahi. Now, look at these Puntlanders:

Yet when you break down the components for a group like the Puntlanders above you suddenly get the "diversity" our Garaad is talking about 99% of the time:

This is obviously not actual diversity like what genuinely exists among Oromos where even admixture levels vary significantly:

Keep in mind that those Puntlanders are the same Somalis used in most of the studies out there and the same Somalis who have such homogenous and bottlenecked ancestry that they form the Ethio-Somali component at the higher Ks in ADMIXTURE:

There's absolutely nothing "diverse" about their structure. It's just G25 being wonky in the ways I've explained in other threads. It's completely impossible for them to have such tightly clustering overall MENA to SSA scores, form an ADMIXTURE component and be diverse in the more recent components like Jawf-Yemeni like that. Not how recombination and genetics in general works. The recent components in G25 and nMonte are just being skewed by various mechanisms like drift and can even be normalized by structuring your models in other ways as @The alchemist has shown.

And this is generally 99% it in terms of our Garaad's argument. Pretending this fake diversity makes us basically like Oromos or something. Well, that and the 1% where he is using people who occasionally pop up on forums like these because they have stories of admixture in their family (outliers) and acts like they're somehow common cases when they're not. This is a silly subject driven by qabiilism and I'm gonna leave it at that.

So all ethnic Somalis are roughly 55% East African and 45% MENA.

 

[Shimbiris]

So all ethnic Somalis are roughly 55% East African and 45% MENA.

Pretty much. Unless you've got recent outside admixture that is pretty much it for MENA to SSA scores and around 40:60 for true Eurasian vs SSA as we so far can compute it. Only way a Somali veers from those numbers is being an outlier with recent, often known within the fam, outside admixture from usually Oromos, Xabashis, Arabs, Cadcads or Bantus.

Also, I'd like to take this quick opportunity to demonstrate that our Garaad's fake diversity actually occurs among other Horners as well:

Tigrinyas are a good group cos they form a tight cluster like Somalis and appear to be a relatively homogenous and "real" ethnicity unlike the meta-ethnicities that are Amharas and Oromos where even the admixture levels noticeably vary:

There are only two true outliers in the form of Tygray5 and Tygray11 who seem to have elevated Omotic admixture visible via their elevated Mota scores. Once you ignore these two though there's still a variation of about 10% for Jawf-Yemeni with lowest at 23.6 and the highest at 34.4 despite the overall MENA to SSA difference between these two samples being about 2%. Obviously complete nonsense. And the same exact situation and Jawf-Yemeni variation range found among the Somali samples.

Again, this is G25 being wonky in the various ways I've gone into. This is not real.

 

[Ashraf]

Just to be clear, 99% of the "diversity" our Garaad has been going on about is the variation in Yemeni and other more "recent" ancestral components in G25 which is fake:

That's how homogenous Somalis look when you look at the actual MENA (Natufian, Jawf Yemeni, IBM) and SSA (Mota, Dinka) scores. Once you ignore the Kenyans who have a handful of Borana admixed outliers among them, that's seriously a variation of ~2% from the northwest to the northeast to the south and Kenya. So diverse, wallahi. Now, look at these Puntlanders:

Yet when you break down the components for a group like the Puntlanders above you suddenly get the "diversity" our Garaad is talking about 99% of the time:

This is obviously not actual diversity like what genuinely exists among Oromos where even admixture levels vary significantly:

Keep in mind that those Puntlanders are the same Somalis used in most of the studies out there and the same Somalis who have such homogenous and bottlenecked ancestry that they form the Ethio-Somali component at the higher Ks in ADMIXTURE:

There's absolutely nothing "diverse" about their structure. It's just G25 being wonky in the ways I've explained in other threads. It's completely impossible for them to have such tightly clustering overall MENA to SSA scores, form an ADMIXTURE component and be diverse in the more recent components like Jawf-Yemeni like that. Not how recombination and genetics in general works. The recent components in G25 and nMonte are just being skewed by various mechanisms like drift and can even be normalized by structuring your models in other ways as @The alchemist has shown.

And this is generally 99% it in terms of our Garaad's argument. Pretending this fake diversity makes us basically like Oromos or something. Well, that and the 1% where he is using people who occasionally pop up on forums like these because they have stories of admixture in their family (outliers) and acts like they're somehow common cases when they're not. This is a silly subject driven by qabiilism and I'm gonna leave it at that.

We have yemeni dna? Wtf is jawf Yemeni, and if I’m correct I read we have North African dna from natufians mixing in North Africa before migrating south? And why is it that Amhara and Tigray have kinkier hair despite higher Eurasian.( bit of a weird one). And what is the mota component? Is it omotic?

 

[Garaad Awal]

@Shimbiris using terrible models and wondering why he is getting wonky results. I would never use that Dinka +Natufian +Yemeni Jawf +Mota model and draw conclusions. Seriously what kind of model is that? Of course their Yemeni ancestry would vary by a lot. G25 can be wonky but you have to control it with actually realistical models and understand the pops you are using.

To fish out the Cushitic & Arab ancestry in Horners. I use the Kenyan PN samples (including the elmenteitan ones) & the PIA samples for the Somalis and our extra Sudanese-like ancestr into one component. I would then use the Umayyad Arab samples who are devoid of any African ancestry.

 

[Lightshow]

Pretty much. Unless you've got recent outside admixture that is pretty much it for MENA to SSA scores and around 40:60 for true Eurasian vs SSA as we so far can compute it. Only way a Somali veers from those numbers is being an outlier with recent, often known within the fam, outside admixture from usually Oromos, Xabashis, Arabs, Cadcads or Bantus.

Also, I'd like to take this quick opportunity to demonstrate that our Garaad's fake diversity actually occurs among other Horners as well:

Tigrinyas are a good group cos they form a tight cluster like Somalis and appear to be a relatively homogenous and "real" ethnicity unlike the meta-ethnicities that are Amharas and Oromos where even the admixture levels noticeably vary:

There are only two true outliers in the form of Tygray5 and Tygray11 who seem to have elevated Omotic admixture visible via their elevated Mota scores. Once you ignore these two though there's still a variation of about 10% for Jawf-Yemeni with lowest at 23.6 and the highest at 34.4 despite the overall MENA to SSA difference between these two samples being about 2%. Obviously complete nonsense. And the same exact situation and Jawf-Yemeni variation range found among the Somali samples.

Again, this is G25 being wonky in the various ways I've gone into. This is not real.

A lot of Somalis believe in made up diversity between the clans. But from my observation, there really is no observable phenotypic difference between a Hawiye, Daarood, Dir or Isaaq.

The only way you would be able to know what clan they are is if they told you, or you guess from their dialect.

The Hawiye clans contrary to popular belief rarely intermix with non Somali ethnic groups.

 

[Ashraf]

Pretty much. Unless you've got recent outside admixture that is pretty much it for MENA to SSA scores and around 40:60 for true Eurasian vs SSA as we so far can compute it. Only way a Somali veers from those numbers is being an outlier with recent, often known within the fam, outside admixture from usually Oromos, Xabashis, Arabs, Cadcads or Bantus.

Also, I'd like to take this quick opportunity to demonstrate that our Garaad's fake diversity actually occurs among other Horners as well:

Tigrinyas are a good group cos they form a tight cluster like Somalis and appear to be a relatively homogenous and "real" ethnicity unlike the meta-ethnicities that are Amharas and Oromos where even the admixture levels noticeably vary:

There are only two true outliers in the form of Tygray5 and Tygray11 who seem to have elevated Omotic admixture visible via their elevated Mota scores. Once you ignore these two though there's still a variation of about 10% for Jawf-Yemeni with lowest at 23.6 and the highest at 34.4 despite the overall MENA to SSA difference between these two samples being about 2%. Obviously complete nonsense. And the same exact situation and Jawf-Yemeni variation range found among the Somali samples.

Again, this is G25 being wonky in the various ways I've gone into. This is not real.

What is the real/accurate genetic composition of Somalis then?

 

[Lightshow]

What is the real/accurate genetic composition of Somalis then?

55% ancient East African, and 45% Middle eastern North African. The first migrants of Cushites into East Africa from Egypt/Sudan in the Neolithic were more like 60% Middle eastern North African and 40% proto Nilotic or ancient East African. We then received a further 10 to 15% East African (Mota like without Eurasian input) during our tenure in the Savanna of East Africa.

Our middle eastern is Natufian ( which is dzudzuana (from Georgia) 70%+ Iberomaurasian 30% (North African).
The Iberomaurasian is (dzudzuana 55% + ancestral north African 45%). Ancestral north African is African and not Eurasian.

We are in the end 60% African (0% Bantu/Niger Congo, but 60% ancient proto Nilotic and East Africa Mota like, with some ancestral North Africa ) with about 40% Eurasian (mainly Dzudzuana)

Am I correct @Shimbiris or am I missing something.

 

[Ashraf]

55% ancient East African, and 45% Middle eastern North African. The first migrants of Cushites into East Africa from Egypt/Sudan in the Neolithic were more like 60% Middle eastern North African and 40% proto Nilotic or ancient East African. We then received a further 10 to 15% East African (Mota like without Eurasian input) during our tenure in the Savanna of East Africa.

Our middle eastern is Natufian ( which is dzudzuana (from Georgia) 70%+ Iberomaurasian 30% (North African).
The Iberomaurasian is (dzudzuana 55% + ancestral north African 45%). Ancestral north African is African and not Eurasian.

We are in the end 60% African (0% Bantu/Niger Congo, but 60% ancient proto Nilotic and East Africa Mota like, with some ancestral North Africa ) with about 40% Eurasian (mainly Dzudzuana)

Am I correct @Shimbiris or am I missing something.

Hmmmm. So are we 55 -45 or 60-40? Plus can you explain haplogroup T. Wouldn’t that make northern Somali admixture different? And isn’t ancestral North african Berber? The way I understood it previously was the we were 60% SSA. Proto Nilotic + ancestral East African(extinct) + a tiny amount of omotic. And our Eurasian component was about 40%- Natufian 25% plus North African 15%.