can we expect any new studies focusing on Sudan? we're still in need of a more accurate sample for the bulk of horner's non-west eurasian ancestry
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I am not sure if out of the seven 1 or 2 would be predynastic. Though I did hear from associate_2 that there will be a potential Gebelein predynastic genome at the year’s end.
Let’s wait and see. I’m quite curious too. Apparently associate_2 has gathered some information but he only divulged a little.
Funnily because associate_2 knows the team in question, I actually spent a whole month informing him on other documented predynastic collections across Europe and the Americas in hopes for a contribution to future sequencing. He’s bothered to death by me.
you and your associates
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I’m geussing they will be similar to Early Neolithic Moroccans.
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I’m afraid that will take time. Europe followed by the MENA get most of the attention unfortunately
thats why we need way more somali/horner archaeologistsI’m afraid that will take time. Europe followed by the MENA get most of the attention unfortunately
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If I as a Hawiye go to Darood area for archeological purposes they will shoot me
On the ancient population dynamics of Sudan, you probably remember my last thread on Nubian mTDNAs (dating back to Meroitic times or something). Anyway, I sent a DM to the researcher, yet to this day, she has not replied.
As for the non-"Eurasian" side of Horner autosome, isn't it generally accepted to be something akin to the Mesolithic Wadi Halfa specimen?
The Wadi Halfa specimen had
:
1) Marked prognathism
2) Mass-additive teeth
3) other traits indicative of "sub-Saharan" ancestry.
However, I would not be surprised if they turned out to be a ghost population not actually representing the "proto-Nilotic" side, but rather something else. That being said, a cranium of a similar type to the Wadi Halfa specimen was found in the far north like Faiyum B culture and other specimens like the Taramsa Hill boy from Paleolithic Qena also exhibited prognathism and traits that we'd "interpret" as "sub-Saharan". It could be that these are all specimens responsible for the 6.8% Omotic and ~30% IBM autosome in Natufians, or maybe they were separate groups not closely related to one another.
As for the non-"Eurasian" side of Horner autosome, isn't it generally accepted to be something akin to the Mesolithic Wadi Halfa specimen?
The Wadi Halfa specimen had
:
1) Marked prognathism
2) Mass-additive teeth
3) other traits indicative of "sub-Saharan" ancestry.
However, I would not be surprised if they turned out to be a ghost population not actually representing the "proto-Nilotic" side, but rather something else. That being said, a cranium of a similar type to the Wadi Halfa specimen was found in the far north like Faiyum B culture and other specimens like the Taramsa Hill boy from Paleolithic Qena also exhibited prognathism and traits that we'd "interpret" as "sub-Saharan". It could be that these are all specimens responsible for the 6.8% Omotic and ~30% IBM autosome in Natufians, or maybe they were separate groups not closely related to one another.
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It looks like the bulk of our non-eurasian ancestry could possibly be from a unique population closely related to ancestral North African according to what this person posted on Quora
I wonder if there’s a possibility that our bulk non-eurasian ancestry could be ANA
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Let us enter the full-speculation zone (due to fuk-all samples and little concern from esteemed geneticists):
I have seen a theory saying that Ancestral North Africans were basically Aterians (a widespread theory shared between many in this amateur circle).
After the AHP started, the remaining strains of Aterians migrated south. This was vindicated by lithic industries corresponding to Aterian tools in the Sahara. For instance, the Egyptian Kharga Oasis had documented Aterian lithics. There are certainly other Aterian-like sites in the Sahara, namely Chad, but as of now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to pinpoint them. What's even more fascinating is the Aterian boundaries may have expanded beyond Africa and reached Oman.
Judging from my posts one can see my typical interest lies in Egypt & Nubia & the Horn (and the Maghreb to some degree), so again, take these with a grain of salt.
Corresponding to Lazaridis et al. 2018, these Aterians/ ANA would have formed the bulk of the ancestry we now observe among "sub-Saharan Africans" (well, mainly talking about non-Horners here. Non-Khoisan or other weird HGs, of course), and with the latter acquiring HG autosomes from their local regions.
However, the taxonomy of "Aterian" was not without flaws. For instance, I expect to see variations between Moroccan Aterians and Egyptian "Aterians". Basically, different yet related types of ANA. Some more familiar with modeling G25 & other genetic tools would understand the fundamentally linked nature between "Dinka" and "Omotic" | "Ari" ancestry, and to me it is very likely that they both inherited a good portion of the same source before absorbing HGs we do or do not know of. The HGs themselves might also be ultimately traced to the former Aterian source or their sister groups (well, barring the supposedly non-Sapien HG specimen in West Africans).
Something along the lines of these then interbred with Helwans (hunter-fishers from Cairo. Yes, they were very likely to be Natufian-like with probably some IBM-like admixture. Or perhaps we should model them as IBM+Dzudzuana) to form the first eastern Saharan pastoralists that will become Cushitic groups. I expect to see a Cushitic-like profile among Al-Khiday Mesolithic people.
Dinkas and other Nilotic groups currently inhabiting Sudan could be a result of Central-African introgression(Shum-Laka-like???? Sry, I'm leaving my comfort zone now, lol) that mixed with Omotic-like populations or a ghost group who carried the "East African" signal. Had this been true, then the Yellow Nile (now Wadi Howar, as the river dried up in ancient times) was likely the corridor for such a genetic exchange.
I have seen a theory saying that Ancestral North Africans were basically Aterians (a widespread theory shared between many in this amateur circle).
After the AHP started, the remaining strains of Aterians migrated south. This was vindicated by lithic industries corresponding to Aterian tools in the Sahara. For instance, the Egyptian Kharga Oasis had documented Aterian lithics. There are certainly other Aterian-like sites in the Sahara, namely Chad, but as of now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to pinpoint them. What's even more fascinating is the Aterian boundaries may have expanded beyond Africa and reached Oman.
Judging from my posts one can see my typical interest lies in Egypt & Nubia & the Horn (and the Maghreb to some degree), so again, take these with a grain of salt.
Corresponding to Lazaridis et al. 2018, these Aterians/ ANA would have formed the bulk of the ancestry we now observe among "sub-Saharan Africans" (well, mainly talking about non-Horners here. Non-Khoisan or other weird HGs, of course), and with the latter acquiring HG autosomes from their local regions.
However, the taxonomy of "Aterian" was not without flaws. For instance, I expect to see variations between Moroccan Aterians and Egyptian "Aterians". Basically, different yet related types of ANA. Some more familiar with modeling G25 & other genetic tools would understand the fundamentally linked nature between "Dinka" and "Omotic" | "Ari" ancestry, and to me it is very likely that they both inherited a good portion of the same source before absorbing HGs we do or do not know of. The HGs themselves might also be ultimately traced to the former Aterian source or their sister groups (well, barring the supposedly non-Sapien HG specimen in West Africans).
Something along the lines of these then interbred with Helwans (hunter-fishers from Cairo. Yes, they were very likely to be Natufian-like with probably some IBM-like admixture. Or perhaps we should model them as IBM+Dzudzuana) to form the first eastern Saharan pastoralists that will become Cushitic groups. I expect to see a Cushitic-like profile among Al-Khiday Mesolithic people.
Dinkas and other Nilotic groups currently inhabiting Sudan could be a result of Central-African introgression(Shum-Laka-like???? Sry, I'm leaving my comfort zone now, lol) that mixed with Omotic-like populations or a ghost group who carried the "East African" signal. Had this been true, then the Yellow Nile (now Wadi Howar, as the river dried up in ancient times) was likely the corridor for such a genetic exchange.
Yeah lol how’ve you been? Hope all is well.
Busy with a lot lol. Might make another Twitter but not anytime soon - a lot on my plate. In the meantime I’ll be checking on happenings on here and genarchivist.
Fuuuuuuccccckkkkkk I must take 23 credits this semester and the next two—karma for deserting courses in grade 2.
Haven't heard of genarchivist. Oh wait, I just found it...is it a successor site of Anthrogenica?
Anway, I registered and saw the two leaked Egyptian samples.
Add: I just realized, I'm probably the most "Eurasian" person to have ever taken interest in the genealogy of Northern and Eastern Africa. That's even taking into account all the early anthros, since they were ONLY western-Eurasians, buddy.
As long as it’s you, you’ll be fine dude.
Yup. I immediately assumed the poster would have been one of your ‘contacts’ (no doubt he’s in that circle), but I guess not. I have a lot I wanna ask but it would be better in private so I’ll DM you.
The only English-speaking Northeast Asian obsessed with this stuff no doubt.
The poster is a weird person.
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Gizeh (Old Kingdom).
If these are true, then it means predynastic EGs would so far be the best model for you. Obviously, I am not including the pre-proto-Egyptians from Mesolithic Helwan. They'd be even closer as Cushitics were likely "created" then.
Yeah, I’ve seen it. What’s your handle on there? I’ll DM you there since I can’t here (200 post minimum or something).The poster is a weird person.
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Gizeh (Old Kingdom).genarchivist.freeforums.net
edit: no worries, found ya. You make it pretty ez
That’s definitely what they were getting at but can I just say their writing style and the way they handled it was very familiar. I have an idea of who it is. I wanna see if you agree.
Yeah but no matter how advanced DNA extraction techniques get, we’re just not getting Helwan data. I’d also rather it be the case almost lol. No offence to my fish-loving forefathers but their cousins who stayed out outdone them and I’d rather associate myself with a Naqadan nomarch however wrong it may be
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It might be slightly more complicated than this: Helwans abandoned their home during "true Mesolithic" (as they were mainly a late Epipaleolithic culture), and migrated into several pockets of oasis' in the west. They eventually returned to the valley, and thus proto-Egyptians were born. I do not know if there's a group who insisted on staying near Cairo since the Epipaleolithic., but had that been the case they'd be heavily inbred and likely physically weaker, hence leading to their subsequent subjugation by Naqada Egyptians.Yeah but no matter how advanced DNA extraction techniques get, we’re just not getting Helwan data. I’d also rather it be the case almost lol. No offence to my fish-loving forefathers but their cousins who stayed out outdone them and I’d rather associate myself with a Naqadan nomarch however wrong it may be
Wait a minute this is suddenly all very likely: Buto-Maadi is a thing, correct? They exhibited different customs to their Naqada kin. Considering the lush nature of Lower Egypt throughout the ages, agro-pastoral hunter-fisher people might have constantly returned to the place before eventually taking a truly settled lifestyle. Those who have never left would be the ones outdone in later times. However, I would not say they're "pure" as Lower Egypt definitely experienced some PPNB or Anatolian migration during Late Gerzean times. Of course, the admixture would again be diluted when Egypt was unified under kings of Naqada cultural sphere.
ADD: You're likely right that we're not getting Helwan data in the perceivable future. This is because 1) their habitat is now buried under towns & cities, and you know the Egyptian government. No way they're going to tear it all down just to find some ancient "Natufians". Cairo Governorate is too important for them IMO. 2) They have f*ck-all remains last time I checked.
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Not much info out there on the Helwan so thanks.
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