What is your guys opinions on why birthrate is so low in countries which are more developed?

[jemappelle]

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thats the point, these guys complaining women have high standards and won't go with a man with a worse job but in reality you don't need to do much to get a good women they are just complaining for no reason

 

[Periplus]

thats the point, these guys complaining women have high standards and won't go with a man with a worse job but in reality you don't need to do much to get a good women they are just complaining for no reason

You can thank red-pill ideology and Andrew Tate for this.

 

[Angelina]

@jemappelle

Check this data out. This isn’t even new information for me as I’ve always known that whilst people in Europe did marry earlier, the vast majority of middle class and peasants actually got married in their early to mid 20s. Teen marriages were for the most part for the nobles.


The data he is using is most probably credible. It’s from Jstor, it’s a website that university students get free access to in order to complete their dissertations but the rest have to pay a monthly fee for unlimited downloads ect.

 

[notinuse.]

I think as people get richer they become more selfish and many people see children as a burden that's why westerners have less children imo and this will be the demise of many rich countries.

Not self-ish more do responsible, I think people who bush out 7 or 8+ children while being financially unstable and living in tough conditions like most somalis are the ones who are selfish and irresponsible. A child is a developing human who deserves as much care attention as possible, not your little ticket to heaven or future wealth.

 

[Angelina]

@jemappelle @Omar del Sur

Reasons for the ‘mating crisis’ which causes low birth-rates. It makes perfect sense:

 

[jemappelle]

@jemappelle @Omar del Sur

Reasons for the ‘mating crisis’ which causes low birth-rates. It makes perfect sense:

I recently started travelling and I chose a couple years ago to get rid of my phone and only use a brick phone, doing this I realised I rely more on talking to random people on the street for directions, forcing me to be more social with random people, I can't go on my phone for any kind of information, I have to ask peopke for everything. Just having a phone makes us so disconnected from society because we don't need to physcially interact with people if we can do everything ourselves

 

[Angelina]

I recently started travelling and I chose a couple years ago to get rid of my phone and only use a brick phone, doing this I realised I rely more on talking to random people on the street for directions, forcing me to be more social with random people, I can't go on my phone for any kind of information, I have to ask peopke for everything. Just having a phone makes us so disconnected from society because we don't need to physcially interact with people if we can do everything ourselves

Honestly, I think this is a huge problem as to why people aren’t meeting.

The side effects of this for gaals is a good thing in a sense that despite the scaremongering, Zina and STIs has actually decreased. Men and women are much more likely to not drink as much or engage in risky behavior. However, this has resulted in young men and women not going out as much and also not having the social skills to get to know each other for marriage.

It’s interesting.

 

[jemappelle]

The side effects of this for gaals is a good thing in a sense that despite the scaremongering, Zina and STIs has actually decreased. Men and women are much more likely to not drink as much or engage in risky behavior. However, this has resulted in young men and women not going out as much and also not having the social skills to get to know each other for marriage.

It’s interesting.

On one side you see it as good
but on the other side I see it as worse, the society becomes more and more disconnected from each other, you know less people, you have less real life interaction, you have less friends and connections, this makes life more difficult, knowing people and having friends and different connections can get you very far in life. Replacing real life interaction with virtual reality just makes us more individualistic and less connected as a society.

Having less outdoor sports activities for young boys in schools and telling them off for roughhousing or playing sports makes them just become agitated and suppressed their inner desire, alot just sit at home at play video games all day instead of physical activity, schools are much more catered towards a girls style of learning compared to a boys as boys are much more energetic and physical than girls and need to have alot fo physical activities, from a young age we have been taught that not only is this wrong and not productive but doing something we find boring and forcing us to do it is much better, now you see men who sit at home all day on the internet and eating and getting fat. Also when it is dispraised for men to get married young, and its harder and harder for people to have relationships, the only outlet for them is p0rn, which is arguably as damaging to society as zinaa. This isn't just restricted to men though it also applies to women as they have similar problems.

There is a reason why are making all this virtual reality stuff, they are basically jsut brainwashing us to live a hedonistic lifestyle which makes us feel empty inside and addicted to these things but in the capitilistic society we live in ends up all being funnelled to the people at the top.

I think the reason it is going this way is mainly because the reasons, Humans are greedy, atheism and lack of religiousity has caused people to forgot the purpose of life and instead follow their desires and not think for themselves, Influx of new techonology and wealth is shocking and we don't know how to deal with it as we are developing so quickly, capitalist society run by non-Muslims,

 

[empressjamila]

Tell me you don't pussy without telling me you don't get pussy.

Bro trade guys can get 8 and 9s women don't care about money as much as u think especially when they make money themselves

Tradespeople can make really good money too, even more than a lot of university educated people. A lot of women don’t care so much about a man being educated if he makes good money

I was seeing a guy who worked in construction and he made way more than me as a nurse and I have a degree

 

[Angelina]

Quite a simple answer: industrialization causes more women in the workforce, which of course leads to less marrying and starting families. Forgot what the exact statistic is but something like by 2030 close half of women aged 30 will be single in the West. That is truly absurd. This is what the industrialization causes to society, it atomises us all and consequently creates modern medicine to solve the mental health crisis (which originated from abandoning our fitrah). Most woman with a family are content even without a career, mostly all woman with a career without a family are discontent.

Simple solution is controversial to majority but when understood really is a common sense proposition. It is to delineate men to be in the productive sphere, women in the reproductive sphere. Have trust in Allah and marry young.

We really need to stop spreading misinformation. Educated women are happier:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-016-9833-y

Educated women are in fact much more likely to marry:

Educated men and women, less likely to divorce:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-and-marriage/

Educated women tend to have fewer children out of wedlock as well.

My issue with your post is that Data and actual anecdotes of actual educated women with money is in contrast with your very subjective claims.

 

[jemappelle]

We really need to stop spreading misinformation. Educated women are happier:
View attachment 248715

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-016-9833-y

Educated women are in fact much more likely to marry:

View attachment 248718

Educated men and women, less likely to divorce:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-and-marriage/

Educated women tend to have fewer children out of wedlock as well.

My issue with your post is that Data and actual anecdotes of actual educated women with money is in contrast with your very subjective claims.

But isn't this due to women with an education and a job more likely to be in a higher socioeconomic percentile and therefore can afford a better life for themselves
whereas less educated women nowadays tend to be ones born in a lower socioeconomic background and are more likely to have children outside wedlock, and failed marriages.

Also in general women are having less and less children now anyway, the high price of everything could be blamed on the fact that a women who were encouraged to work essentially doubled the workforce and therefore raised the prices for everything and made a cycle of women needing to work in order to sustain the lifestyle that we live because of the high prices

 

[Angelina]

But isn't this due to women with an education and a job more likely to be in a higher socioeconomic percentile and therefore can afford a better life for themselves
whereas less educated women nowadays tend to be ones born in a lower socioeconomic background and are more likely to have children outside wedlock, and failed marriages.

Yep that is a fact. Literally saw data that shows higher relationship failing and socioeconomic background being linked.

The reason why I showed this data to the poster is because Muslim manopshere are spreading misinformation and half truths about women’s happiness levels, education and socioeconomic backgrounds.

One prominent speaker tried to create a link to Onlyfans and college which is literally the complete opposite. Papers show that women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are much and are much more likely to go into the sex industry. Studies shouldn’t even need to tell you that as it’s obvious, it’s like saying water is wet. Also, a few hours ago I came across a paper that looked at only fans and how the vast majority are girls from low-socioeconomic backgrounds who aren’t educated. it’s obvious, usually you’re not going to get a med grad or an engineering grad on there.

It’s becoming clear that many men have an agenda and it’s only about helping men gain access to women by any means necessary rather than actually being honest as to how lack of education and prospects does in fact lower women’s happiness, quality of life and even the ability to leave unstable situations.

Also in general women are having less and less children now anyway, the high price of everything could be blamed on the fact that a women who were encouraged to work essentially doubled the workforce and therefore raised the prices for everything and made a cycle of women needing to work in order to sustain the lifestyle that we live because of the high prices

Economics is a lot more complicated than the idea of women flooding the market. Tbh, even before women were encourage to work, women already did, the lower classes. Major difference is that women were only allowed to work in harsher and lower paid jobs such as maids, factory work and agricultural jobs. jobs such as doctors and accountants were seen as a man’s domain. Ironically, those jobs would be better suited to a woman’s nature than working in a factory for 12hrs. The idea of women only at home is looking at history through the lens of the middle and upper classes.

 

[jemappelle]

Economics is a lot more complicated than the idea of women flooding the market. Tbh, even before women were encourage to work, women already did, the lower classes. Major difference is that women were only allowed to work in harsher and lower paid jobs such as maids, factory work and agricultural jobs. jobs such as doctors and accountants were seen as a man’s domain. Ironically, those jobs would be better suited to a woman’s nature than working in a factory for 12hrs. The idea of women only at home is looking at history through the lens of the middle and upper classes.

So are you telling me in history women would work the same they do now and have kids at the same time?

 

[Angelina]

So are you telling me in history women would work the same they do now and have kids at the same time?

Somd working class women, yes. Look up factory work in the 1800s, the start of the industrial revolution. It was brutal and these women worked for little pay.

In pre- Industrial societies, like our great grandparents generation, our granmothers who were nomads were not confined to the home. Their duties was to look after the cows and goats, built an aresh (tent/hut), fetch water ect and obviously child reer. The men also did similar tasks such as look after the camels. You still see this is rural areas and it seems women end up doing even more work sometimes according to studies:

If we look at historical pattern for peasants, women worked the fields alongside the men. We really didn't start to see the single laborer male provider until periods of industrialization. A new middle class.

 

[jemappelle]

Somd working class women, yes. Look up factory work in the 1800s, the start of the industrial revolution. It was brutal and these women worked for little pay.

In pre- Industrial societies, like our great grandparents generation, our granmothers who were nomads were not confined to the home. Their duties was to look after the cows and goats, built an aresh (tent/hut), fetch water ect and obviously child reer. The men also did similar tasks such as look after the camels. You still see this is rural areas and it seems women end up doing even more work sometimes according to studies:

View attachment 248724

If we look at historical pattern for peasants, women worked the fields alongside the men. We really didn't start to see the single laborer male provider until periods of industrialization. A new middle class.

Ok, so I'm talking about before the industrial period, what were the women doing, in terms of work and child reering

Also if women were out looking after cows and goats who was looking after the kids at home?

 

[Angelina]

You make a good point btw.
As you can see the part where the U.K. birth rate rose (only time since 1960s) was in the New Labour government. Rose to 1.9+ (close to replacement level) and now back down to 1.5
View attachment 248651

This shows as families get poorer women are forced to work more and can’t afford children. Labour was always known to give many benefits to families. Now the Conservatives have brought in 2 child limit for benefits.

Working class women, especially the very poor have always worked. This isn't a new phenomenon as back well before feminism and well before women were even allowed to get university degrees.

I think back in the 2000s my mum got nearly £20k in benefits from 5 children. Which was a lot back then.

But you must accept this is unlikely to happen again. 2000s is the most prosperous decade ever. The world will get poorer and resources will be more scarce because of climate change.

So the truth is the best way to increase births is reduce women participation in work and allow men to raise a family on one income. So then the housewife can raise children, aren’t distracted by work, make as many babies as possible.

That isn't what's going to happen. At the start of the industrial revolution, poor women were working in factories. Even before working was normalised for the upper and middle class women, working class men would have wives and even children as young as 7 working in factories. Women have always worked, they were merely barred from working jobs with good pay that required education.

When we look at agricultural societies, women were often working in the fields alongside their husbands. Even our own ayeeyos were looking after livestock, whilst the men looked after camels.

For a good % of women never had the chance to solely only focus on their home and babies. That is a 1950s pipe dream that doesn't take into account the complexities of social class and industrialization.

 

[Angelina]

Ok, so I'm talking about before the industrial period, what were the women doing, in terms of work and child reering

Really depends. Working class women or middle/upper class women? Many working class women had no choice as the situations for some families were indeed dire. Especially, in the 1800s, which is the peak and beginning. A lot of women in big cities like London and Manchester were employed.

Also if women were out looking after cows and goats who was looking after the kids at home?

The kids would often being running around in the same area. Also, women would have lots of children to help out and kids by age 6 will be doing babysitting duties and feeding small livestock. When my mother tells me about life in those days, i'm amazed at how much kids do at such a young age.

Also, ask your mum. She'll have a good insight. Most Somalis are of nomadic origin. Your great ayeeyo or even your ayeeyo most definitely lived that lifestyle. It was a hard one, but everyone worked.

 

[jemappelle]

Really depends. Working class women or middle/upper class women? Many working class women had no choice as the situations for some families were indeed dire.

Both working class and upper class

The kids would often being running around in the same area. Also, women would have lots of children to help out and kids by age 6 will be doing babysitting duties and feeding small livestock. When my mother tells me about life in those days, i'm amazed at how much kids do at such a young age.

Also, ask your mum. She'll have a good insight. Most Somalis are of nomadic origin. Your great ayeeyo or even your ayeeyo most definitely lived that lifestyle. It was a hard one, but everyone worked.

Interesting so they were still around there kids all day no?

 

[Angelina]

Both working class and upper class

Interesting so they were still around there kids all day no?

Everyone was. Unless the man was going off to battle or finding grazing land, people were literally around each other 24/7. Kids, parents, cousins ect. People were nomads and would travel together to find grazing lands in groups. Schools didn’t exist.

 

[jemappelle]

Everyone was. Unless the man was going off to battle or finding grazing land, people were literally around each other 24/7. Kids, parents, cousins ect. People were nomads and would travel together to find grazing lands in groups. Schools didn’t exist.

Ok interesting.
What do you think the disadvantages of that lifestyle is?